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  1. The AGK is ready to start with the AVI made in DVDFab.
    Audio found box shows 384 AC3 4 channel audio.


    I've selected the advanced tab and when opened selected the VBR MP3 with default 128 kbps.

    The advanced box does not show anything related to 4 channel. I can correct and redo as necessary. For now I am going to do the procedure as a scratch test to see if I can find the needed MP3 output.
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  2. Progress,

    The Auto Gordian Knot recode of the AVI file has completed.

    I have opened the AGK temp folder and seen a group of files, among them an MP3 of the right duration of 1 hr. 43 mins. There is also an AC3 file which is larger in the AGK temp folder.


    Back at reviewing remarks from hello_hello he writes:

    "Now, if you've converted the original AC3 audio to MP3 it's volume will have been increased to maximum. If you kept the original AC3.... not so much.
    If it's MP3 you can open your old AVI with VirtualDubMod (it's in in a subfolder where AutoGK is installed but unfortunately I don't think there's a start menu shortcut), use VirtualDubMod to delete the old audio, add the MP3 version, resave it as a new AVI (selecting Direct Stream Copy for the video when saving) and in a minute or so you'll have a new AVI with the new MP3 audio. Changing audio streams happens using VirtualDubMod's "Streams" menu at the top. Chances are you'll need instructions the first time but I only type with two fingers and they're getting tired. Anyone else???"

    I only played a small part of the MP3. What I would like to do is see it in Goldwave or Audacity to see if indeed the volume has improved and is flat. I would also like to know/confirm that this is simple stereo and not four channel.

    Virtual Dub Mod is one of these scary programs for me. I recall having to do many tweaks to get it to work but that was in working with VHS (years ago.)

    I understand that this and AVI Synth are core programs for doing this type of editing but they are hard to keep straight.

    In summary I need to know what to do with the mp3 next.

    A numbered sequence would be helpful with all the reanming etc. In the meantime I'll look at Virtual Dub and make sure I have it and ready to go.
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  3. There's no such thing as multichannel MP3. If the audio was converted to MP3 then it's stereo. AutoGK actually uses Dolby Pro Logic encoding so it can be decoded back to surround using Dolby Pro Logic, but that's still done using stereo audio (it's how Pro Logic works).

    Open VirtualDubMod which is located in a sub-folder where AutoGK is installed (I'm not referring to VirtualDub as it's laid out slightly differently). Use it to open the AVI from the file menu. Then from the Streams menu select Streams List. Using the Demux button will get VirtualDubMod to save the audio stream, in this case MP3, to your hard drive. Using the Save Wave button will get VirtualDubMod to save it as a wave file. From there you can open it with whatever you like. AVIsynth doesn't get involved.

    When the Streams List window is open, the Add button allows you to add audio streams to the AVI. The Disable button disables the highlighted stream. If you add or delete streams you can re-save a new version of the AVI from the File menu (back in the main program window). You must select "Direct Stream Copy" for the video when the "Save" window opens in order for VirtualDubMod to save the existing video, otherwise it'll try to re-encode it.

    Mind you if you've not run AutoGK again or deleted it's temp folder, and there's an MP3 in the temp folder, the AVI audio will be the same MP3. You can just open it using a different program if you want to look at it and not bother with demuxing the audio from the AVI as it'll be the same MP3 audio anyway. AutoGK doesn't convert the audio to MP3 unless it's going to use it for the output AVI, and if you run a new encoding job using the same output directory, AutoGK will clear the contents of the temp folder first.
    Last edited by hello_hello; 10th Jul 2012 at 18:11.
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  4. Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    Well that's easy for you to say.

    I have not determined yet that this MP3 made by AGK is the finished product.
    I want look at the wave form and see if it has enough volume and is pretty even-- normalized.

    So far I have figured out where Virtual Dub is in the AGK program folder.

    I will give it a whirl.
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  5. We seem to have posted at the same time so hopefully you didn't miss my instructions on using VirtualDubMod. However.....

    Try installing MP3Gain. Use it's Options/Advanced Options menu and check "enable Maximizing features". Close the options window and open the MP3 audio. Right click on the MP3 and select "Max No-Clip analysis". When it's checked the MP3, the "Max NoClip Gain" column should be 0db which would indicate the peaks are indeed at maximum volume.

    Unlike wave files, it's possible for MP3 audio to have peaks exceeding 0db. This shouldn't be the case with MP3's created by AutoGK but if the peaks aren't 0db you can right click and select "apply maximum no clip gain for each file". MP3 is the only compressed format for which the volume can be adjusted without re-encoding it, which is what MP3Gain does.

    I use MP3Gain that way quite a bit. I convert multichannel audio to stereo MP3 using a program which simply mixes it to stereo as it re-encodes it. Combining the channels this way is nice and quick, but if the peaks are already close to 0db combining multiple channels can result in peaks above 0db. So once the MP3 is encoded I open it with MP3Gain and get it to adjust the volume as I described above.
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  6. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Actually, hello_hello, there IS such a thing as multichannel MP3, called "MP3 Surround", but it is rare.

    @loninappleton, I'm going to say something that you probably DON'T want to hear: Your audio track probably DOES NOT NEED REPAIR. If it's AC3 as you say, I'm guessing the level problem has to do with "Dialnorm" a FEATURE in AC3 that attempts to maintain a standardized RMS volume level ACROSS PROGRAMS for dialogue.
    It is often misunderstood by consumers intent upon MAXIMIZING the output. Google "AC3 volume too low" and you'll find LOTS of hits.

    So you have 3 options:
    1. Go through all the work you've been trying to convert and lose quality (and possibly surround info) in the name of Maximum normalized volume
    2. Adjust the Dialnorm figure away from it's INTENDED PURPOSE and cheat the system, making your devices maximize the AC3 level when they shouldn't
    3. Learn to work with AC3 and it's dialnorm feature (will take some change of habit on your part)

    Scott
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  7. Thanks for the clarification. I will get on it tomorrow.

    @Cornucopia/Scott, Yes it has been a bit daunting but I'm learning as I go. I don't do these things to make some sort of product for gain (no pun intended) but simply make it usable in a way that the sharer will not think I didn't check my work. I've seen the piece many times back to VHS release (when VHS and rental stores were new.) And since it is a play there's always the possibility that someone will find value in it for the theater. Many of my shares have that intent.

    No need for surround or other HT tweaks. This AVI was designed to be viewed as I would: on 19" monitor for the information content. I also encourage people to request what is good from the maker for their libraries. It's a form of publicity or advertising for content I value.

    Is this one pass normalized MP3 then adequate? I will see how many points of volume it needs to be audible.
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  8. Can someone fix the spelling on the topic yet? I tried but haven't managed to edit it.
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  9. Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Actually, hello_hello, there IS such a thing as multichannel MP3, called "MP3 Surround", but it is rare.
    My bad. I'd forgotten about that.
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  10. Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    Is this one pass normalized MP3 then adequate? I will see how many points of volume it needs to be audible.
    9.9999999% of the time you want to raise the overall volume by the same amount. ie for an entire movie.
    Peak normalization raises the volume until the peaks are 0db, so depending on the dynamic range of the audio (level of the loud parts) it may raise the volume a lot, a bit, or not at all. I try to avoid peak normalization these days when encoding episodic DVDs as normally you'd encode each episode individually, so the volume of each episode might be raised by quite different amounts. Usually the difference isn't too huge, but it can be.
    If anything, I convert each episode's audio to MP3 while downmixing to stereo, then I load them all into MP3Gain (see my previous post). I use the Max No-Clip function to adjust their volumes by the same amount until the track with the loudest peaks is no longer clipping. That way the relative levels between episodes doesn't change.

    In your case I don't know where the source DVD came from or what sort of content it contains, so it's impossible to say whether you need to raise the volume of each episode/chapter individually, however due to the reason given above, peak normalization can cause volume differences. It depends on the dynamic range of each section.
    Unless the original DVD audio was extremely badly done, or it's not the usual movie/TV show kind of DVD, then there should be no need to adjust sections of it individually. In fact as I keep the original AC3 audio much of the time, and I've never had a problem with not being able to turn the speakers up until it's loud enough, I'm not sure I understand why AC3 volume is considered to be a problem so often.
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  11. Today was the first time I was able to examine the wave form in Goldwave. The wave form looks "normal" with no obvious loudness increase at 11 mins. This is where I always hear the change and at a scene change. It could be just an effect used by the director.

    Also an observation: the intro starts from 'far away' and comes in close on a nightclub scene where a dance number starts. Even so, on that original AVI made with DVDFab it was virtually inaudible without doubling the volume.

    I've made a sample/test of an audio effect on the AGK MP3 in Goldwave without separating right left tracks and all of that (I wouldn't know what I was doing anyway-- never was an expert user of GW.)

    So far, I have gotten a good result from Goldwave's AutoGain feature at one of their presets of 50%. It seems to have evened things out. I don't know if, under a separate test, MP3 gain would give a similar result.

    The goal in this is to increase overall volume of the file so that my volume control is not on max plus bring up levels more even so that dialog can be heard as well as tunes.

    It's been a good morning. Getting a bit more familiar with Goldwave which is very feature rich. Example: if the prog. cannot find LAME encoder it has a prompt to download and get it without leaving the program.


    I haven't tried to put the remade MP3 back into the AVI with Virtual Dub yet.
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  12. progress...

    The 50% gain feature of Goldwave has given a good result.

    Also during the day I tried using MP3 Gain. It seemed to do one analysis on the scratch file and then failed to reload or re-analyse. When the file in MP# Gain 'goes red' no further action can be taken on it.

    I made a "work folder" in which a copy of the AVI and a copy goldwavetest with the 50% gain treatment can be worked on in isolation. This work folder also contains a copy of the Virtualdub Mod folder from Auto Gordian Knot.

    What is yet to do-- and I am worried about making mistakes here is putting the AVI together with goldwavetest MP3.

    At this point I opened the video file ***dvdtitle1.avi in Virtual Dub

    Then click on stream audio and add the goldwavetest file (this opens up a new window)

    In the new window, the AVI shows up
    and the goldwave test shows up with nearly the exact same length.

    What I didn't follow in the instructions is the delete and replace procedure. At the point above, how can I complete installing the remade audio MP3 called goldwavetest?


    This may sound wordy and repetitive but in this thread I'd like to eventually show a complete how-to for a new user so as not re-invent the wheel again.
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  13. Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    We seem to have posted at the same time so hopefully you didn't miss my instructions on using VirtualDubMod. However.....

    Try installing MP3Gain. Use it's Options/Advanced Options menu and check "enable Maximizing features". Close the options window and open the MP3 audio. Right click on the MP3 and select "Max No-Clip analysis". When it's checked the MP3, the "Max NoClip Gain" column should be 0db which would indicate the peaks are indeed at maximum volume.

    Unlike wave files, it's possible for MP3 audio to have peaks exceeding 0db. This shouldn't be the case with MP3's created by AutoGK but if the peaks aren't 0db you can right click and select "apply maximum no clip gain for each file". MP3 is the only compressed format for which the volume can be adjusted without re-encoding it, which is what MP3Gain does.

    I use MP3Gain that way quite a bit. I convert multichannel audio to stereo MP3 using a program which simply mixes it to stereo as it re-encodes it. Combining the channels this way is nice and quick, but if the peaks are already close to 0db combining multiple channels can result in peaks above 0db. So once the MP3 is encoded I open it with MP3Gain and get it to adjust the volume as I described above.
    I found this guide at Afterdawn.com which I always go to for guides:

    http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/normalize_mp3_audio_volume.cfm


    It's the behavior of MP3 Gain that I don't fully understand. (And I tried once before.) When the item goes "red" it must be "done" with the "y" after it. But it doesn't seem to allow for any opportunities to make adjustments. Once that "red" process is done after it's "analysis" it doesn't want to to do anything else.
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  14. When the Streams List window is open, the Add button allows you to add audio streams to the AVI. The Disable button disables the highlighted stream. If you add or delete streams you can re-save a new version of the AVI from the File menu (back in the main program window). You must select "Direct Stream Copy" for the video when the "Save" window opens in order for VirtualDubMod to save the existing video, otherwise it'll try to re-encode it.

    I'm unsure yet about this procedure. Last time I stopped at the point I had opened /loaded the AVI, selected stream. The stream window opens with the AVI. Then add the mp3 I had been fixing. The selections are OK (done I guess) and other options down the right side, none of which apply. Exit to main screen and find Direct stream copy.

    At this point some disk activity started up. But I don't know what's going on b/c Virtual Dubmod's inscrutable screen gives no prompts. Also I don't know when it will be "done" either.

    All of this is in the work folder so hopefully I do not lose:

    the AVI or the Goldwave gain copy of mp3 audio.
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  15. "When the Streams List window is open, the Add button allows you to add audio streams to the AVI. The Disable button disables the highlighted stream. If you add or delete streams you can re-save a new version of the AVI from the File menu (back in the main program window). You must select "Direct Stream Copy" for the video when the "Save" window opens in order for VirtualDubMod to save the existing video, otherwise it'll try to re-encode it."

    I'm unsure yet about this procedure. Last time I stopped at the point I had opened /loaded the AVI then selected stream. The stream window opens with the AVI. Then added the mp3 I had been fixing. The selections are OK (done I guess) and other options down the right side, none of which apply. Exit to main screen and find Direct stream copy.

    At this point some disk activity started up. But I don't know what's going on b/c Virtual Dubmod's inscrutable screen gives no prompts. Also I don't know when it will be "done" either.

    All of this is in the work folder so hopefully I do not lose:

    the AVI or the Goldwave gain copy of mp3 audio.
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  16. These two images helped clarify what is supposed to be the sequence of images in Virtual Dub:

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  17. Second image:

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  18. Thanks to all who helped with this. Perhaps the thread can function as a guide for others.

    If so, please fix spelling.
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  19. Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    The goal in this is to increase overall volume of the file so that my volume control is not on max plus bring up levels more even so that dialog can be heard as well as tunes.
    Yeah, compressing is different to normalization and it sounds like you want the former. No video encoder GUIs I know of will compress the audio, aside from applying AC3's dynamic range compression (volume info contained in some AC3 audio).

    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    It's the behavior of MP3 Gain that I don't fully understand. (And I tried once before.) When the item goes "red" it must be "done" with the "y" after it. But it doesn't seem to allow for any opportunities to make adjustments. Once that "red" process is done after it's "analysis" it doesn't want to to do anything else.
    Normally, MP3Gain tries to average out the volume of MP3 files using ReplayGain and according to the "Target Normal Volume" you specify. It's set to 89db by default and probably should be left that way. Once MP3Gain has analyzed the audio it'll display a red "Y" if the peaks can cause clipping. After you've applied Track (or Album) gain most of the red "Y"s will disappear as applying ReplayGain generally reduces the volume, but some MP3s will still display a red "Y" because MP3Gain only adjusted the volume to achieve the Target Normal Volume (89db). Even at that level though, the occasional MP3 will still have peaks high enough to theoretically cause clipping.
    You can change the way MP3Gain applies Track Gain by checking "don't clip when applying track gain" under Options. With that option checked MP3Gain will adjust the volume until the "Target Normal Volume" is achieved, or if necessary it'll reduce the volume a little further until the red "Y" disappears too. In other words with that option selected all the red "Y"s should disappear after applying Track Gain. Personally I don't use that option and just allow the occasional red "Y" to remain as it doesn't cause any distortion I can hear.

    The above only applies to averaging out the volume of individual MP3s using ReplayGain (Track Gain or Album Gain). If you use the "max no clip analysis" function from the right click menu, MP3Gain will simply look for the peak level and it'll adjust the volume using "apply max no clip gain" from the right click menu. It'll simply display the peak levels and never display any "Y"s or ReplayGain levels after only running a "max no clip analysis".
    (Unless of course you've analyzed the MP3 using ReplayGain previously, as MP3Gain saves the ReplayGain info to an MP3 tag, so next time you open the same MP3 it doesn't need to analyze it again. I also uses the info it saves to an MP3 tag to reverse any volume changes it's made if you want it to)
    Last edited by hello_hello; 14th Jul 2012 at 10:39.
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  20. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    It's the behavior of MP3 Gain that I don't fully understand. (And I tried once before.) When the item goes "red" it must be "done" with the "y" after it. But it doesn't seem to allow for any opportunities to make adjustments. Once that "red" process is done after it's "analysis" it doesn't want to to do anything else.
    Did you go into it's option and enable the maximizing features as I explained?

    Normally, MP3Gain tries to average out the volume of MP3 files using ReplayGain and according to the "Target Normal Volume" you specify. It's set to 89db by default and probably should be left that way. Once MP3Gain has analyzed the audio it'll display a red "Y" if the peaks can cause clipping. After you've applied Track (or Album) gain, some MP3s will still display a red "Y" because MP3Gain only adjusted the volume to achieve the Target Normal Volume (89db) but even at that level the occasional MP3 will still have peaks high enough to theoretically cause clipping. You can change the way MP3Gain applies Track Gain by checking "don't clip when applying track gain" under Options.
    Yeah, I always disable the "don't clip when applying gain" option.
    If I look at the entire waveform, I usually find there was a gunfight, explosion, etc. I won't notice if that is clipped or distorted, as long as the normal music and speech is not.
    That is why I routinely give all my soundtracks a ReplayGain adjustment. Some encoders adjust volume to avoid all distortion, which in an action movie, for instance, can leave the dialogue very quiet.
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  21. Personally I only use Replay Gain for "music" MP3s. I haven't tried it much for video sound tracks. I do recall trying it on a bunch of episodic encodes at one stage, and it did want to adjust each differently, but as the level of speech already seemed pretty much consistent between episodes (I think it was a Bluray with DTS audio) I figured ReplayGain for video soundtracks might be "okay", but probably can't achieve ideal consistency.

    I think you're correct though. Even though compressed audio can have peaks above 0db I don't think it's really a problem. I assume most audio equipment has enough "headroom" to deal with most of them. At one stage I ran MP3Gain to check for peaks on a bunch of old MP3/AVIs encodes where the audio had simply been mixed down to stereo will converting to MP3. Many of them had peaks over 0db. Most not by much, but I did find a fair percentage had +6db or +7.5db peaks, however they still sounded distortion free to me.
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  22. When using Virtual Dub it is my advice for noobs to reset the video submenu from full video processing to direct stream processing.

    Unfortunately no way I move this warning up to the top!


    I did not have that particular insight nor did I know precisely how to made the setting which is

    Virtual Dub > Video > sub-menu opens to reveal direct stream processing, full and other options.

    Not having done so, the huge file attempted to be made by full stream processing may make your HD useless. I was able to boot from a different drive and delete the 'orphan file' left after Virtual Dub quits with a 'not enough memory' error message.
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  23. It's also easy to confuse VirtualDub with VirtualDubMod when discussing either of those programs. I generally suggest using VirtualDubMod for many tasks, because even though it's no longer updated it still works, and VirtualDubMod gives you an option to change the video mode after using the File/Save As menu (as pictured in an earlier post). VirtualDub does not, requiring you to use the Video menu before saving a file.

    VirtualDubMod, via it's Options/Preferences menu, also allows you to set the default video mode. As a result, I have it set to Direct Stream Copy and use VirtualDubMod for most remuxing jobs, as there's no need to remember to change the video mode unless you actually want to re-encode it. To the best of my knowledge VirtualDub has no such option and defaults to full processing for video every time you open it. I think both programs default to Direct Stream Copy for the audio though (VirtualDubMod definitely does).

    By default, I'm pretty sure both programs save the AVI using uncompressed RGB for video when set to full processing mode. This will produce very large files. However it's normally not an issue. For varies reasons I sometimes get VirtualDub(Mod) to save AVIs using HuffYUV, which is lossless, and then re-encode them. AVIs ranging from 40GB to 100GB are not uncommon.
    I'm not sure why you got a "not enough memory" error but in theory it shouldn't happen. It sounds like you may have simply run out of free hard drive space.
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    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    I mentioned patience would be necessary.
    Patience..............is a two way street.

    Good to see some progress was made for you. There is quite a bit of info on the web but when we aren't familiar with programs and you have a project that is important it can be hard to stay calm. It's natural. People are willing to help if you give them time and/or allow a bit of leeway yourself for them to ingest what it is you really want to do.

    I hope you are able to find the end result you're looking for.
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  25. The Virtual Dub I used was the one installed by Auto GK. I just used it from the AGK folder. As I recall from earlier days they both 'look the same' .

    The File/Save as routine I'm sure I looked for the drop down to find direct stream and it wasn't there. If that method causes the large slowdown in getting a result I'll look at what's on here again.
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  26. The latest version of Auto GK (which I checked earlier on in doing this-- see above---) contains Virtual Dub Mod 1.5.4.0.
    The latest version of Virtual Dub Mod is 1.5.10.3 but what downloads is VDubMod 1.5.10.2-with a beta number

    But both have the option to select for direct stream at File/Save. I made the error because my screen size ran what was at the bottom off screen:
    something that looks like just a continuation of the bottom border.

    However both versions default to full stream processing when they load.

    This is a lot of error checking to do after the fact.

    A guide should be built to catch all these errors before they occur. Near as I can tell all the info is in this thread but needs to be sorted, perhaps begining with "Danger Will Robinson, run away run away!"
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  27. Member
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    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    The latest version of Auto GK (which I checked earlier on in doing this-- see above---) contains Virtual Dub Mod 1.5.4.0.
    The latest version of Virtual Dub Mod is 1.5.10.3 but what downloads is VDubMod 1.5.10.2-with a beta number

    But both have the option to select for direct stream at File/Save. I made the error because my screen size ran what was at the bottom off screen:
    something that looks like just a continuation of the bottom border.

    However both versions default to full stream processing when they load.

    This is a lot of error checking to do after the fact.

    A guide should be built to catch all these errors before they occur. Near as I can tell all the info is in this thread but needs to be sorted, perhaps begining with "Danger Will Robinson, run away run away!"
    loninappleton,
    will you be writing the guide yourself? What should the focus of any guide be?
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  28. I lack the skill to do the screen shots and such necessary. But I can see most if not all the elements in this thread.
    What's missing is gathering the right tools of software in a sequential manner without all the editorializing and if/then scenario writing.

    Over all this time, are there no guides for Virtual Dub *Mod* now currently that reflect the pitfalls of using this tool?

    After all the false starts, mistakes and whatnot, the process is, as someone said at the beginning not that hard. But that was shortcut talk. It's what I used to call "father and son information" where too much is assumed or implied.


    Shortcut talk: tsk tsk tsk.
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  29. Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    But both have the option to select for direct stream at File/Save. I made the error because my screen size ran what was at the bottom off screen:
    something that looks like just a continuation of the bottom border.

    However both versions default to full stream processing when they load.
    As I said, both versions have (well 1.5.10.2 definitely does) an option to set which video saving method they default to when they're opened.

    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    After all the false starts, mistakes and whatnot, the process is, as someone said at the beginning not that hard. But that was shortcut talk. It's what I used to call "father and son information" where too much is assumed or implied.
    Just as often, maybe more, what you refer to as "father and son information" is really just the kids not listening to what they're told.

    From my post #34:
    "You must select "Direct Stream Copy" for the video when the "Save" window opens in order for VirtualDubMod to save the existing video, otherwise it'll try to re-encode it."

    And then again, from your own post #46 where you quoted me:
    You must select "Direct Stream Copy" for the video when the "Save" window opens in order for VirtualDubMod to save the existing video, otherwise it'll try to re-encode it."

    Then from your post #53:
    I did not have that particular insight nor did I know precisely how to made the setting which is
    Virtual Dub > Video > sub-menu opens to reveal direct stream processing, full and other options.
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