DTS Audio...any updates? [SOLVED]

[El Heggunte]

^

As for this....I would not even know how to begin recording one "stereo pair" at a time. I'm not sure what kind of sound card I should have that would accept a signal from the machine.

Well, I assume the device you bought does have 5 (or 6) analog outputs

BTW, doesn't it have a user's manual ???

[JetrellFo69]

^

As for this....I would not even know how to begin recording one "stereo pair" at a time. I'm not sure what kind of sound card I should have that would accept a signal from the machine.

Well, I assume the device you bought does have 5 (or 6) analog outputs

BTW, doesn't it have a user's manual ???

I do have a pdf manual for it. It has an analog out (25 pin plug) and a digital out (15 pin plug). It also has automation and timecode slots for cables.

[El Heggunte]

^ I've sent you a PM.

[JetrellFo69]

^^^
I've returned your pm.....

^ I've sent you a PM.

[Cornucopia]

I'm posting this in the open, not PM, so it can get additional input and help to warn others...

Looking at your manual, it's clear to me that this is a MAJOR uphill battle!

The device is NOT meant as a standalone: it is supposed to have timecode reader head(s) also, which should be affixed to the film projector, so that it provides timecode input to the device from off the edge of the filmstrip. This device WON'T work without timecode telling it how far along it is (with the exception of the setup test disc). Yes, it might be possible to reverse engineer the setup test disc to see how it's program features are different than a regular DTS show disc, but that's extra work also.
It also might be possible to "fake" incoming SMPTE timecode, but you'd have to know both which leads are the high, low, ground, etc and what the voltage level, and pattern/protocol is in order for the box to "see" it properly. Is it straight SMPTE LTC? SMPTE VITC? MTC? something else/proprietary?
See what I mean?

Then you've got to get it to recognize the "serial number" of the "movie" to be equal to the serial number that exists on the disc(s). Without those matching, the discs won't play - period. How is that being transmitted? SMPTE Userbits? Something else?

Then, you've got to get it OUT of the machine. That is comparatively easier, though it's still no picnic. You've got to read the manual and see what the Analog Pinouts are for the various channel feeds (Need at least Hot + Ground for each) and you need to see what the voltage level is. It would be sheer lucky coincidence if it were some common standard, like AES LowZ Balanced Pro Analog levels. Then you would attach a Balun (pro->consumer level converter box) and attach those outputs to a 6 channel soundcard/device on your PC. Unfortunately, more likely is that it ALSO is a proprietary level. Luckily, if you are taking the analog outs, you SHOULD be able to make some adjustments here and massage the signal into something you could use (but it won't be optimal - you might end up with greater-than-normal noise floor or distortion).

And of course, you still need to MAKE all these adapter cables yourself, as they are not standard ANYWHERE ELSE.

Seriously considering all of this, I'd say it's EASIER to reverse engineer the file format and convert the audio files themselves (no small feat) than it is to fix all the aforementioned problems...

Good luck,

Scott

[JetrellFo69]

Well, that IS quite a project. Maybe I've bitten off more than I can chew? My head is spinning after reading that Scott...LOL. Thanks for chiming in and offering such a detailed description. I'm sure many will find something helpful. Considering there is next to NO info anywhere on the file format I want to work on I'm not sure what my next step will be.

I've got to sort my thoughts on this......

[JetrellFo69]

If I could just get from .aue to .aud........I'd be straight, ya know. LMAO

[JetrellFo69]

DTS changed the file extension from .AUD to .AUE in 2005, somewhere around serial number 4700 for 5.1 programs and 65415 for DTS-ES titles.

Now we got DTS 2 files and i will try and inform to the best of my knowledge through friends who work in theater , what i have read on theater tech pages among other sources. (Correct me if im wrong anywhere). DTS 2 files got released. CDRom like the original , but the files now consist of 5 x .AUE files and the DTS.exe and the DTS.txt. When these new discs were implimented the theaters didnt get new DTS players like most think , but rather a firmware upgrade. From what i have been told and read up on this is whats different from what people think ..

The new DTS files arent super encrypted as myself once thought and so does everyone else. With the DTS1 Discs all you needed was the 5 .AUD files and the APX DTS Decoder , easy as 1,2,3. Now with the new DTS2 Files all MPAA has done, has put that useless DTS.EXE (which everyone deleted on DTS1 discs) into use. The DTS.exe now reads if the disc (.AUE files) are actually being played in a player, but if its been copied onto the computer after 2 minutes of Audio the DTS.exe forces it to stop playing.

Groups have found a way past this, as mentioned pluggin a recorder such as a mini disc recorder or iPod into the jack of a DTS player but then you only get 1 channel mono audio which the groups clean up before their release. It still isnt perfect like DTS but does the job.

From my understanding groups have tried to contact ECLiPSE , and the coder who made the APX DTS Decoder who retired/left/quit .. whatever 1 year 1/2 ago. So now all thats needed is a new progy encoder who knows java and all that crap , to modify or make a new DTS Decoder that tricks the DTS.exe into thinking the AUE files are being played on the DTS machines , not a computer.

With the wave of old people/sceners gone and newbies running the show now who cant even nuke a release properly , i cant foresee that anytime soon.

So MPAA didnt actually put a super encryption on the new DTS discs , but actually just put the useless DTS.exe file into use.

I found this blurb....thought it might help somehow.

[JetrellFo69]

Well, this certainly started out as a thread I could compare to the old "red-headed step child" analogy.

Anyways.................to those who support this and have been respectful here.....I thank you kindly. Progress is slow but is happening. I found someone willing to take the journey with me on this and he's been supportive, patient, kind, and understanding.......but willing and excited to take on the challenge. We have obtained various versions of software related to the challenge to try and unlock or at least better understand how to proceed towards our objective....

I know I'm being a little cryptic here....it's because I haven't spoken to my partner yet to know how much he is comfortable with me sharing just yet. This thread deserves to be updated and kept in the open so that others who are sincerely interested in the goals of this project can contribute suggestions and knowledge to it ...... maybe making a solution easier and quicker to find for the benefit of everyone.

Cheers

[JetrellFo69]

Okay, here is what I know so far.

Using DOSBox, my friend was able to look at things a little more closely. After some research on the matter this thoughts on this are as follows......

I've managed to run playback process in DOSBox. Interesting that for AUD disc in runs up to the end of the reel. But for AUE it plays the first two minutes only. Then disc reading continues, but playback doesn't progress over theese 2 minutes. Have to find out how to make it go beyond.

I've compiled customized version of DOSBox with simulated timecode reader. Can be used with Visual C++ compiler/debugger only. Actually, at this stage it's useless for anyone except me.

Here's the situation as I understand by now:

1. AUE decoding (kind of decryption, but rather the weak one) is provided by DTS.EXE program which is put on DTS disc.
2. During playback decryption key changes from time to time and this process depends on timecode reader board. This algorithm is unknown because it's made inside timecode reader firmware. That's why the machine needs updated firmware to play .AUE.

So, there are two ways to go further:

1. Study timecode reader firmware
2. Brute-force with .AUE files knowing that decryption key is changing slowly.

All that said can be wrong

If anyone else has any ideas, suggestions, or avenues that will help, please feel free to post here.

[El Heggunte]

Hmmm, I'm glad to see there is some real progress going on.

And thanks for keeping us well-informed.

[jman98]

Hmmm, I'm glad to see there is some real progress going on.

And thanks for keeping us well-informed.

I'm sure that all five or so people in the world who give a crap are thrilled.

I have no objections to the OP keeping this updated, but again, almost nobody cares. It's a crazy amount of work and effort for no real payoff in my opinion. It's not like those DTS discs are lossless, so you've got a handful of people knocking themselves out when I can just buy a BluRay of the movie and get better audio than what's on their discs, but it's their time to waste.

[JetrellFo69]

Hmmm, I'm glad to see there is some real progress going on.

And thanks for keeping us well-informed.

Thanks for your support El Heggunte.

[JetrellFo69]

I'm sure that all five or so people in the world who give a crap are thrilled.

I have no objections to the OP keeping this updated, but again, almost nobody cares. It's a crazy amount of work and effort for no real payoff in my opinion. It's not like those DTS discs are lossless, so you've got a handful of people knocking themselves out when I can just buy a BluRay of the movie and get better audio than what's on their discs, but it's their time to waste.

You're always such a treat ..... I'm glad you gave enough of a crap to post ..... thank you for your time.

[Cornucopia]

I think what jman98 is trying to say is: you are wasting a whole lot of time re-inventing the wheel (or more accurately, trying to re-create "wheel 1.0" when "wheel 2.0" is already available). "Just because it's there" isn't enough for such little payoff. I mean, if you had some never-before-released material that what thought to be extinct, that's one thing.

I've got better battles to fight...

Scott

[Nelson37]

Your DTS processor will likely have 6 analog outputs. Most PC sound cards have two analog inputs. So, you make three recordings, capturing two outputs each. Then, synch them up and you have a 6-channel decoded WAV file.

I'm curious if there is a similar method as I have used for AC-3, where you use the SPDIF cable and an accurate digital sound to capture all channels at once? SFAIK would still need a DTS decoder but this might get around some of the encryption?

EDIT - There were just about exactly 5 people who were interested in the AC-3 thru SPDIF project, as well

[JetrellFo69]

Your DTS processor will likely have 6 analog outputs. Most PC sound cards have two analog inputs. So, you make three recordings, capturing two outputs each. Then, synch them up and you have a 6-channel decoded WAV file.

I'm curious if there is a similar method as I have used for AC-3, where you use the SPDIF cable and an accurate digital sound to capture all channels at once? SFAIK would still need a DTS decoder but this might get around some of the encryption?

EDIT - There were just about exactly 5 people who were interested in the AC-3 thru SPDIF project, as well

I'm still learning about the machine. I've got a manual but I'm not as technically minded as some so it's slow progress. I won't let myself be discouraged. It seems a lot of times folks wait until there is solid progress before they become interested and that's fine. That is why I started working with someone in the hopes of getting there. Any suggestions and such you might be able to provide would be most appreciated.

Cheers!!!!

[JetrellFo69]

Update:

El Heggunte gave me some suggestions, showed support for my project, kept in contact, and pointed me in a direction. It paid off. I have retrieved the specific audio I came here to get help for. HUGE THANKS to you El Heggunte.

This much I can tell you for sure.....

Brute Force was tried and failed. The actual encryption algorithm was found to be weak so figuring out encryption key was easy. A singular .exe program was compiled for the specific discs of audio as each set probably has their own separate encryption key so it's a 1 shot deal.

The lucky part ..... the encryption didn't change throughout the soundtrack, other wise I'd only have a piece of the puzzle.

At this point, I now have PCM audio from the encrypted .aue files. This has been a cool journey but it's not over. We obviously are going to do other testing to see what can be done, if anything, to create something more universal for this subject matter.

Thanks to my partner Maxim in this. He was nothing but cordial, understanding, helpful, and 100% gracious.

Please consider this issue................solved.

[El Heggunte]

Update:

El Heggunte gave me some suggestions, showed support for my project, kept in contact, and pointed me in a direction. It paid off. I have retrieved the specific audio I came here to get help for. HUGE THANKS to you El Heggunte.

You're welcome. And to tell you the truth, I'm actually surprised that the russian fellow did manage to find a software-based solution to the problem.

Please consider this issue................solved.

Good --- now please add the tag [SOLVED] to the title of this thread.

[JetrellFo69]

[QUOTE=El Heggunte;2204885]

Update:

El Heggunte gave me some suggestions, showed support for my project, kept in contact, and pointed me in a direction. It paid off. I have retrieved the specific audio I came here to get help for. HUGE THANKS to you El Heggunte.

You're welcome. And to tell you the truth, I'm actually surprised that the russian fellow did manage to find a software-based solution to the problem.

I was more surprised more by the lack of support for something like this being accomplished especially without all the wasted money and man-hours some people said it would take to actually do it.

Now granted, not everything happens as or when or how we'd like it to but this guy did what apparently no-one has been able to do in 10 years ..... THAT says something. If anything, it's proof that things CAN happen if you work together as a team and follow through.

[Cornucopia]

All this "problem solved" business still doesn't get anyone else closer to a solution. You know, it's usually good etiquette to not be so cryptic, but instead pass along the hard won knowledge so that the greater Videohelp and media community in general can benefit. You know what they say, "what goes around, comes around."

Scott

[JetrellFo69]

Anyone with questions on the subject may pm me. I will gladly offer support and assistance if it's within my means to do so.

I cannot pass along the custom .exe as it's designed specifically for the needs I had. I received very little support from anyone here @ VideoHelp except for El Heggunte (Nelson37 too). In fact I had to go outside the site to get the assistance I required.

I'm sure that all five or so people in the world who give a crap are thrilled.

I have no objections to the OP keeping this updated, but again, almost nobody cares. It's a crazy amount of work and effort for no real payoff in my opinion. It's not like those DTS discs are lossless, so you've got a handful of people knocking themselves out when I can just buy a BluRay of the movie and get better audio than what's on their discs, but it's their time to waste.

Besides, since only possibly 5 or so people in the world might give a crap, what's the point, right?

I think what jman98 is trying to say is: you are wasting a whole lot of time re-inventing the wheel (or more accurately, trying to re-create "wheel 1.0" when "wheel 2.0" is already available). "Just because it's there" isn't enough for such little payoff. I mean, if you had some never-before-released material that what thought to be extinct, that's one thing.

I've got better battles to fight...

Scott

....."what comes around, comes around" indeed.


I know that the encryption is actually weak and once the key is found, the audio can be extracted. You can make use of the DTS.exe to do it. In fact, another member here in an older thread eluded to this exact thing but apparently no-one followed through. BJ_M is the user I speak of. I tried contacting this person via pm a few times and had no luck getting response.

Anyways, the issue I had has been solved, hence the updated title, nothing cryptic about that.

[Cornucopia]

Interesting how it was in post #35, it was I suggesting that you go back to decrypting/decoding instead of trying the hardware playback route. But you seem to have chosen to ignore any benefit you may have gotten from my influence (or jman98's, who early on told you that you would get more appropriate advice on a few other boards like Doom9, cdfreaks/myce,avsforum). Oh well...

I still don't even understand WHY you would go to lengths to get audio from those discs where there is likely a BETTER rendition available via standard DVD or Blu-ray. Of course, we can't contradict your opinion regarding this as you never divulged just WHAT you were working on, even after I asked you. We know you had in the past compared apt-x Jurassic Park vs. Blu-ray JP. Just on specs alone, I would find that one suspect, as apt-x is a lossy compression with a (at the time you were referring to, ~2005) with 1.28Mbps for a 5.1 soundtrack, whereas the BD JP is DTS-HD-MA (aka LOSSLESS) 7.1 24bit/48k. Unless there happened to be some strangeness in the mastering (which I doubt), it should be no contest - 2 more channels and all LOSSLESS.
But without giving us anything to go on, "you appear to be the winner". Forget giving the forum segments to A/B so that experienced audio engineers can analyze & critique. Cryptic? - maybe so.

BTW, I wasn't the one who said "only 5 people care about it...". I was one of the 1st people interested in this thread, remember? Oh, maybe you don't. My bad - I was the FIRST one interested.

What you may not realize is that by invoking these kind of tactics, you seem to have now joined a number of recent "newbies" who have appeared on the forum asking for info, and then after getting some critique (some justified, some not so much) cop an attitude and somehow, through BACK CHANNELS, appear to have this "great solution" and are not forthcoming about any details in ways that COULD help the general media community. Kind of a "nobody here helped me enough, so I'm taking my ball and going home, ha ha!"

Ok, so maybe you AREN'T part of that group...do you want to just explain yourself? You don't have to divulge WHO gave you the decoding .exe (especially if it was sensitive or gray-market connection), but what about even the TITLE, or what happened hardware wise, or false steps to avoid, or what the specs turned out to be when you finished? See? That kind of stuff shouldn't just be PM, unless you want the next JoeBlow to have the same problem you came upon.

Me? I don't need to know. Personally, I'm good with standard DVD & BD titles' quality, and I'm not such a fan of any particular property that I HAVE to have better. So to me, there is NO POINT. Like I said in that previous post - if it were a matter of a previously-thought
-lost title or some exteme rarity, that's a horse of a different color. But I undersand that an open 2-way street of info ultimately helps everyone even when it doesn't help me.

And yes, what goes around, comes around (you mis-quoted me earlier). I've been on these forums for 12+ years and have helped thousands (I've only had about 5 of my 6,500+ posts be actual questions), and I have a good memory of those who were friendly, curious, gracious & most of all humble, and also of those who weren't.

Do what you want. You got what you came for, right?

Scott

[JetrellFo69]

Apparently we are misunderstanding each other. I have taken your posts to say that you were less and less interested in this project because the outcome didn't benefit you any. If I misunderstood your message, I apologize. As for jman, he obviously has no other interest than what his negative toned posts suggest.

I am unsure as to what specific information you are looking for. I said I was working with DTS cinema audio. I am sorry if I was not specific as to which title I was working with ..... as the aptx codec is lossy, it didn't seem important.

I have NO quarrel with you Scott. Your posts here explained information that I and most others who've tackled this are already aware of. If you were looking to collaborate on the thread to make it more reader friendly you really should have been more specific to me about your personal intention ..... the uphill battle style of posts didn't give me that impression. Again, I apologize if I mistook your intent. Since jman was my FIRST experience here on this forum, I've not had much hope about getting real assistance and support.

I am quite thankful to get what support I have gotten here ..... it led me to my answer.

[JetrellFo69]

For those who want to know....I was working on gaining access to DTS cinema audio related to Star Wars. I am archiving the Theatrical audio of the movies as the DVD/BR versions are based on George Lucas's ever changing vision which tend to vary because of the changes made. Having these available, lossy or not, help keep them available and safe from future changes as a lot of fans enjoy what they saw on the Big Screen, not what's been changed and set to DVD/BR.

About 2003/2004 DTS decided to encrypt their cinema audio to follow suit with others doing so even though cinema audio takes more than just a decode to make it useable for video projects aimed at preservation.

Since it has been 10 years with no advancement or progress on accessing this audio I took to the project so that I could at least have all 6 movies cinema audio available for "fan" projects. 5 of the 6 movies have had .aud file formats which are accessible via the Winamp aptx plug-in. Revenge of The Sith was the only one that couldn't be archived, until now. As I explained earlier, Brute Force did not work and the "hardware analog hole" option could be far to expensive for something so simple. My idea was this ...... if it's encoded and encrypted via software it should be able to be decrypted and decoded via software.

A member here, BJ_M, "suggested" looking at the DTS.exe file ..... turns out, this is where the answer was. The program I received via my partner on another site, made the disc audio accessible. It decrypted & decoded the .aue files to .aud files which would allow 5.1 multichannel audio to be created for home use with "fan" preservation's of theatrical versions of Star Wars movies to be completed with the audio they were originally presented with.

If anyone has questions....please ask them. If I have the specific answers you're looking for I will offer them....if I don't I will tell you so and maybe send you in a direction that could help you get that answer.

Cheers

[Cornucopia]

Now, THAT actually makes sense to try and salvage! I'm only a mediocre SW fan, but with my kids having grown up loving it, I can understand especially the need to keep a PARTICULAR version alive for posterity, especially when Lucas seems revisionist-happy. It's like he's never fully ready for it to be acceptable. Should have spent more time on the scripts and not the FX (probably why I love T.E.S.B. the most).

Thank you for the apology and for the additional info. I was less and less interested, but that had more to do with other things getting in the way. But I'm glad you got things to an acceptable state. Hopefully, you won't have much more of those extraction/conversion puzzlers.

BTW, there are a number of veterans to this site that to some newbies come off as negative, criticizing, or pompous. Sometimes they ARE (maybe it's a bad day), but most times, they are just a little bit jaded and see the newbies as not doing their homework first or getting the gist of the ways of this forum. In my longevity here, I may be becoming more and more of this type, as you probably think jman98 is, but I can assure you that my intention (and I believe his also - check out his many helpful posts) is foremost to be of help. We just also know that sometimes, for some folks here, the most help might be in the form of "NO". Cut them some slack, they'll cut you some.

'Til next time....

Scott

[jman98]

For those who want to know....I was working on gaining access to DTS cinema audio related to Star Wars. I am archiving the Theatrical audio of the movies as the DVD/BR versions are based on George Lucas's ever changing vision which tend to vary because of the changes made. Having these available, lossy or not, help keep them available and safe from future changes as a lot of fans enjoy what they saw on the Big Screen, not what's been changed and set to DVD/BR.

Work on DTS didn't even start until 1991, which is after episodes 4-6 were released, so it's arguable that what you are "preserving" isn't even original. Look, I'm not continuing to pile on and attack you, but you're working with DTS remixes of the original films and not the original audio.

[JetrellFo69]

For those who want to know....I was working on gaining access to DTS cinema audio related to Star Wars. I am archiving the Theatrical audio of the movies as the DVD/BR versions are based on George Lucas's ever changing vision which tend to vary because of the changes made. Having these available, lossy or not, help keep them available and safe from future changes as a lot of fans enjoy what they saw on the Big Screen, not what's been changed and set to DVD/BR.

Work on DTS didn't even start until 1991, which is after episodes 4-6 were released, so it's arguable that what you are "preserving" isn't even original. Look, I'm not continuing to pile on and attack you, but you're working with DTS remixes of the original films and not the original audio.

DTS didn't start in theaters until 1993 with Jurassic Park. I hadn't stated which Star Wars movies except for the one I mentioned. The DVD/BR versions are based on the Special Edition Trilogy which was based off of the Original Trilogy.

For those interested, I was referring to the Special Edition Trilogy as they were released in 1997, after DTS had it's start in the theaters.

A simple google search before commenting would have been more appropriate.

[JetrellFo69]

For those who may not know....the 1997 Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition only exists in 4 known formats, actual film, VHS, LD, and the 4th was a pair of Broadcasts in Germany and the U.K.. The broadcasts have been archived but the video quality of both is far from great and the video releases were plagued with a horrid pink tint. The 35mm Film versions are the only best known source for them.....all other releases are inferior. The DTS discs for the cinema releases is the only authentic DTS audio available for them.

Anything released from DVD on out of this SE Trilogy has been further edited by George Lucas.

[jman98]

A simple google search before commenting would have been more appropriate.

Or you could just provide info instead of expecting people to read your mind.