anyone have color/bright issues with import Dvd player?

[spiritgumm]

I'm in the USA, and bought a Pioneer DV-2022 which is a region 3 player; suppose to automatically detect and output Pal or Ntsc. Playing an Ntsc dvd, I noticed night/dark scenes were much too dark, and color might also be off slightly. I've never had an import player so I dont know if that's typical and everyone just adjusts their TV, or if this is unusual behavior. Are there specific TV adjustment settings to compensate this? The player's manual settings wont work enough to make an equivalent Ntsc dvd player output.

[DB83]

What country is this player meant for ?

Region 3 suggests Asia, Hong Kong etc. Different power supplies and frequencies.

[spiritgumm]

Pioneer markets it in Asia (when I googled the model number), but several USA online stores offer it. But I thought the issue was between the two systems- Ntsc and PAL, not the intended country.

[DB83]

Why would USA online stores offer a Region 3 player ?

[spiritgumm]

Most USA dvd players wont play PAL and are region-locked. It's fairly common practice online to sell import players (Amazon is full of them), because most of those are Ntsc/Pal compatible. This model happens to be rated "Region 3," but the point is it's an import player probably intended for a PAL system, and also probably made to be Ntsc compatible.

[DB83]

Ok. I get that bit.

Now I have a dvd player that detects NTSC or PAL but with one important caveat. It is NTSC playback on PAL equipment.

So the player expects to send its signal to a PAL tv NOT to a NTSC tv. These are not, I imagine, multi-standard units.

You would probably be ok if the tv was multi-standard. Else, who knows.

[spiritgumm]

your setup is different. I'm looking for responses from people in USA with import dvd players.

[jman98]

I think I told you this in a different post you made. You've got to get in touch with edDV about this. He's and maybe jagabo are the only members we've got who are versed enough into this kind of technical color thing to be able to give you real advice. As DB83 points out (credit for trying to help) region 3 DVD players are probably designed to play NTSC on PAL equipment. See if the player has an NTSC video output setting and use this instead of the "Any" or "Multi" default value it's probably on.

[edDV]

Here is my best guess. First all DVD discs have luma black at digital 16 and nominal white at 235.

An NTSC DVD player (or a multi-system DVD player set to N American NTSC) will output digital 16 to analog 7.5 IRE and 235 to 100 IRE.

A PAL or Japanese DVD player will output level 16 to 0 IRE (blanking level) and 235 to 100 IRE. If you play this to a North American NTSC TV (composite, S-Video or analog component), all dark info below 7.5 IRE will be displayed as black by the TV. The term for this is "crushed blacks". If digital HDMI outputs are used, digital level 16 will be output as digital level 16 so crushed blacks are avoided.

[spiritgumm]

thanks, edDV. This particular Pioneer player is Rca-only, no Hdmi output, so I cant test your theory. But why has noone mentioned this issue before (especially since people have been buying imports before Hdmi outputs were added)? I find it hard to believe I'm the only one, unless it's an issue with this particular model. I'm still curious what other users have experienced.

[hech54]

thanks, edDV. This particular Pioneer player is Rca-only, no Hdmi output, so I cant test your theory. But why has noone mentioned this issue before (especially since people have been buying imports before Hdmi outputs were added)? I find it hard to believe I'm the only one, unless it's an issue with this particular model. I'm still curious what other users have experienced.

1. Either the player in question is actually "region free"(not Region 3) or every single NTSC disc you stuck in that machine is "Region Free".
2. Nobody imported units from overseas. That's silly. Everyone bought a Philips or cheap import DVD player(but one with an American 110V plug designed to be sold in America), hacked it to Region Free.....and made sure it could convert between NTSC and PAL "on the fly" via a menu option or something as simple as an N/P button on the remote.
I understand hackable DVD players are becoming VERY hard to find....but unless that player came with free postage, was incredibly inexpensive, and came wired for your home country....you wasted your money and time.

[spiritgumm]

1. Either the player in question is actually "region free"(not Region 3) or every single NTSC disc you stuck in that machine is "Region Free".
2. Nobody imported units from overseas. That's silly.

I never said the unit didnt behave as region-free. I specified it's "Region 3" in case the specific region mattered, and to demonstrate it is indeed designed for foreign market (an import player).

Inre your 2nd point, your generalization is wrong. Yes, people hacked USA models to make them region-free, and relatively Pal-compatible (the Pal output wasnt always good in the early days). People often recommended buying a hacked model from sites like World Imports (which carried both imports and hacked USA models). And if you actually actually look at dvd players on Amazon, ebay, and online stores, many advertized region-free Pal-compatible players are actually import models. Maybe it's just the Pioneer brand.

[hech54]

I never said the unit didnt behave as region-free. I specified it's "Region 3" in case the specific region mattered,

That's just it. It doesn't matter.

Inre your 2nd point, your generalization is wrong..

Not when you say something like this:

And if you actually actually look at dvd players on Amazon, ebay, and online stores, many advertized region-free Pal-compatible players are actually import models.

Compete nonsense. How long do you think Amazon, Amazon sellers and Ebay sellers would stay in business selling DVD players that you cannot even plug into an American power outlet?
As already stated by jman, if "Any" or "Multi" is all you have available to you as far as PAL/NTSC settings....you bought the wrong player....end of story.
"Any" or "Multi" works over here....but not over there.

[jagabo]

I'm in the USA, and bought a Pioneer DV-2022 which is a region 3 player; suppose to automatically detect and output Pal or Ntsc. Playing an Ntsc dvd, I noticed night/dark scenes were much too dark, and color might also be off slightly.

As edDV pointed out, that's an NTSC "setup" issue. Black in the USA is IRE 7.5, in Japan it's IRE 0. So a Japanese player will have too dark blacks in the USA.

http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

The subject used to be mentioned quite a lot but few people are using analog sources now so it's not mentioned very often.

[spiritgumm]

thanks, jagabo. That's interesting that Japan (which uses Ntsc) switched their Black Level standard from Ntsc to Pal specs. So I guess they would not have any IRE issues there, but their dvd players will present IRE issues here.

While I dont have a "proc amp," I imagine the solution offered could be adapted to the TV basic settings?
Adjust luma gain by 92.5 / 100. This is to compensate for the next step.
Adjust pedestal / luma offset by +7.5. Luma black level will now be at 7.5 IRE,
and white level at 100 IRE.
Adjust chroma gain by 92.5 / 100. To maintain constant saturation, it is
necessary to match the chroma gain to luma gain.

[edDV]

thanks, jagabo. That's interesting that Japan (which uses Ntsc) switched their Black Level standard from Ntsc to Pal specs. So I guess they would not have any IRE issues there, but their dvd players will present IRE issues here.

While I dont have a "proc amp," I imagine the solution offered could be adapted to the TV basic settings?
Adjust luma gain by 92.5 / 100. This is to compensate for the next step.
Adjust pedestal / luma offset by +7.5. Luma black level will now be at 7.5 IRE,
and white level at 100 IRE.
Adjust chroma gain by 92.5 / 100. To maintain constant saturation, it is
necessary to match the chroma gain to luma gain.

North American NTSC (proposed 1954) retained 7.5 IRE setup so that the new color standard would be fully compatible with the monochrome 525/60 standard first proposed in 1936 and finalized by the FCC in 1941. By the mid 1950s there were 10s of millions of monochrome TVs in the field and a decision to switch to 0 IRE meant that every one of them would need modification or re-alignment. By the late 1950s, sales of color sets reached only 2-4% due to high cost.

A quick history overview:

In 1936 when the 525/60 standard was proposed, it was considered necessary to include a 7.5 IRE safety zone vs blanking to prevent reverse biasing of the vacuum tubes being used at the time. As tubes aged, the gain could vary. This was especially a problem for broadcast transmitters of the day which could actually catch fire if the video signal descended below blanking.

By 1954, improvements in clamping circuits made the necessity for 7.5 IRE pedestal obsolete but millions of TV sets were in service by then. The FCC as instructed by Congress put monochrome compatibility as a goal for the new color standard. Canada and Mexico followed the US FCC so that cross border broadcasting would remain compatible.

Japan and Europe didn't go color until the mid 1960s. Sales of monochrome TV sets were much lower in post war Japan and those monochrome TV sets could be designed to accommodate 0 or 7.5 IRE setup. Japan decided to use 0 IRE for NTSC.

In 1960s Europe, it was decided that the new color standard would be 625/50 (576i) with most countries opting for the German PAL standard while France went with SECAM. The new color service would be on separate channels. The old monochrome channels (such as the UK 405 line system and French 819 line system) would be maintained, then phased out over a decade.

The digital broadcast conversion to ATSC/DVB standardizes black at digital 16 and nominal white at 235 worldwide but conversion back to legacy analog will differ by country.

[jman98]

spriitgumm - Unless you plan to move from North America there's no reason at all to buy a multi-region DVD player from PAL land and potentially have to deal with problems like yours. So believe it or not, almost nobody on this site who lives in North America actually does that. North American people here who want region free players buy North American models that can still be made region free (ie. Oppo, some Philips, Pioneer, etc.). The cost is much lower. The difficulty you've had in getting the kind of response you wanted should illustrate that I'm right.

[spiritgumm]

thanks, jagabo. If only someone could go back in time and change the standards.

jman98, I wouldnt generalize about what most site members own. The Oppo is expensive, and not everyone is willing to settle with a Philips. PioneerUSA stopped selling dvd players couple years ago.
The MAJORITY of Pioneer players for sale in USA are import models. If you or hech54 ever decide to check Amazon for description of models, and dates of reviews, you would see that. The main exception is the hacked DV-420 from third parties - which was discontinued years ago (so where are they getting them??), and usually overpriced. For those two reasons, and because imports are widely available, I chose the latter.

[usually_quiet]

And if you actually actually look at dvd players on Amazon, ebay, and online stores, many advertized region-free Pal-compatible players are actually import models.

Compete nonsense. How long do you think Amazon, Amazon sellers and Ebay sellers would stay in business selling DVD players that you cannot even plug into an American power outlet?

Some are definitely imports because the manufacturer doesn't sell the item in question in the US. The electrical issues you mention are taken care of. I have read through the listings for a number of the multi-system DVD players and DVD recorders sold by specialty retailers, and they generally come with a switchable 110V/220V PSU and sometimes plug adapters. I don't know if the items come in that way from the manufacturer, or are modified by the seller after they arrive in the USA. I do know that PSUs in consumer electronics are often on a separate circuit board these days for easy replacement in the event they fail while under warranty.

[DB83]

Yes our systems over here are different.

I also am obliged to edDV and jagabo for their knowledge in this. I do wonder whether the IRE 0 bit was part of the design to ensure that NTSC could play back on PAL equipment.

I found a 'manual' for your player - if you can call a couple of sheets a manual. The tv system setting on this reminds me of another dvd player in this house which is also a Pioneer (I do not know the model number). If you just put a NTSC in this player IIRC you would get playback in black/white. To switch to NTSC you had to power-down and then power-up while holding down a button on the player. Then you got colour on playback.

This manual also describes this process.

So have you tried this. That is to force playback to NTSC rather than at 'auto' which is the default.

Also. You only talk about a NTSC disk. What happens if you play a PAL disk ?

[edDV]

I do wonder whether the IRE 0 bit was part of the design to ensure that NTSC could play back on PAL equipment.

If this player was designed for use in a PAL country, both PAL and NTSC will be output 0-100 IRE. Typically NTSC will be converted to PAL with subcarrier upconverted to 4.43 MHz. Playback of this psuedo PAL (called PAL60) will show as monochrome on a typical NTSC TV or be flagged as unsupported.

If this player was designed for use in Japan, it will output NTSC at 0-100 IRE.

Some Asian players have menu selections for PAL, PAL60 or NTSC-J all at 0-100 IRE. Some of these may also offer NTSC-M which would output 7.5-100 IRE.

[jman98]

jman98, I wouldnt generalize about what most site members own. The Oppo is expensive, and not everyone is willing to settle with a Philips. PioneerUSA stopped selling dvd players couple years ago.
The MAJORITY of Pioneer players for sale in USA are import models. If you or hech54 ever decide to check Amazon for description of models, and dates of reviews, you would see that. The main exception is the hacked DV-420 from third parties - which was discontinued years ago (so where are they getting them??), and usually overpriced. For those two reasons, and because imports are widely available, I chose the latter.

Ah yes, The old "There is nothing special or remarkable about me. I did X, therefore many or maybe most people also do X." argument. Yet my explanation provides a rational explanation for why you've had so much trouble getting help. But if your delusional alternative works for you, whatever.

First of all, most people in the USA/Canada not only do NOT care at all about multi-region players, they don't even know what they are. Second, few people buy DVD players outside of their region. That's just reality. Again, you can either accept it or deny it, but you'd do better to accept it. The fact that Amazon allows reseller to sell such players does not at all mean that if I go to a random house in my neighborhood that I will find some guy who bought a region 3 DVD player like you did.

[spiritgumm]

If this player was designed for use in a PAL country, both PAL and NTSC will be output 0-100 IRE.

I tried toggling between the Pal/Ntsc settings, but I could never tell if it was switching - and in this case, it wouldnt matter, as edDV just pointed out. This particular player (or model) initially had an A/V sync issue with a Pal dvd (which went away), but Xvid via any USB stick goes out of sync, so I'm going to return it. And to avoid the Black level/chroma issues, I'll just stick with USA-market players.

Some USA dvd/blu players dont seem to have hacks we can do at home, but are for sale as such from 3rd parties. When I read their descriptions which mention Pal converters and flexible voltage, it makes me concerned about proper Ntsc black level/chroma output. Just thinking out loud.

jman98, glad to read you know what "most people in the USA/Canada" care about. I guess all those Amazon customers who bought multisystem/pal-compatible players (and wrote reviews saying that's what they wanted) are from another continent. I never said anyone wanted to buy a player from another region. What Amazon customers wanted (judging from their reviews) is a region-free, Pal-friendly player, but unfortunately the typical region-free Pioneer player turns out to be from another region.

[hech54]

jman98, glad to read you know what "most people in the USA/Canada" care about. I guess all those Amazon customers who bought multisystem/pal-compatible players (and wrote reviews saying that's what they wanted) are from another continent. I never said anyone wanted to buy a player from another region. What Amazon customers wanted (judging from their reviews) is a region-free, Pal-friendly player, but unfortunately the typical region-free Pioneer player turns out to be from another region.

As you will see in a second after I press "submit reply"...I've been here at VH since 2001 when I started collecting and watching PAL VHS tapes from Australia. With the help of many people here, I learned what was going on and what I needed to do to watch these tapes(and by the way....if you think the PAL/NTSC thing is bad with DVD....try the VHS route. I'm not a "pay your dues" kind of guy but dealing with PAL DVD in America is a picnic compared to PAL VHS).
Now I have lived is Germany (PAL Land) for almost 9 years....IMO that allows me to be a bit blunt sometimes....
You have NO idea what you are talking about. Nobody imported European VHS players because that would not help AT ALL and those who did came back here and bitched after they read the "you'll need a power converter and video format converter" fine print.
Nobody imported European DVD players either. At that time there were PLENTY of 110V, hackable, converting players available off-the-shelf at places like Best Buy and Circuit City.
So please stop bringing up Amazon and Ebay as an argument for you wasting your money importing a DVD player. In the immortal words of the Grail Knight...."He chose poorly".

[spiritgumm]

So please stop bringing up Amazon and Ebay as an argument for you wasting your money importing a DVD player.

I didnt "import" a player, I bought it (in-stock) from B&H Photo. As elsewhere, most of their Pioneer players are imports (if you read the fine print). The voltage is suppose to be compatible with USA, so the only modification was the inclusion of a plug adapter (2-pole to 2-prong). I originally searched thru all the current Pioneer players on Amazon (again, imports), but went with B&H because of their store warranty. PioneerUSA doesnt deal with import player warranties.

The multisystem players you see on World Imports strive to be universal (sometimes including a switch to change voltage), and these Asian Pioneer players seem to have compatible voltage, so I dont think the VCR argument is relevant. Also I never generalized that everyone in USA was buying import players. The whole reason I bought the player (which happened to be an import) was based on researching Amazon and other sites to see what Pioneer players are available, so I cant NOT refer back to those sites to explain. I didnt invent their info to justify my purchase.

[usually_quiet]

@spiritgumm: The fact is that fewer and fewer US model DVD players are made, and those that are available are mostly cheap, mostly region locked, mostly NTSC-only, and mostly without some features formerly available on deluxe models.

So what will you do? Your only choices seem to be: a hackable older model US DVD player (that can play SD DivX files as well as PAL DVDs with no issues, but which is sold at an inflated price if you can find one), a new US LG Blu-Ray player (mentioned in your other thread, which plays NTSC and all-region PAL DVDs correctly for an N. American TV, but not DivX files), an overly expensive Oppo, an overly cheap Philips, or an "international" model that won't provide the proper black level when using analog connections?

[spiritgumm]

not sure what I'll finally settle on, but I'll compromise my preferences. Maybe I'll get two players (SD and Blu) - Blu's arent very expensive these days. I've seen LG's for sale pre-hacked, so maybe there's a home way to do it?

[usually_quiet]

I've seen LG's for sale pre-hacked, so maybe there's a home way to do it?

As I told you in your other thread, there are no published hacks for home use so far. The stores selling these players pre-hacked may have installed their own custom firmware, or may have access to service remotes and service manuals (usually not cheap or easy to come by). [Edit] ...or they may have even replaced a chip on the board.

[spiritgumm]

As I told you in your other thread, there are no published hacks for home use so far. The stores selling these players pre-hacked may have installed their own custom firmware, or may have access to service remotes and service manuals (usually not cheap or easy to come by). [Edit] ...or they may have even replaced a chip on the board.

yep, I know you mentioned the lack of hacks (and I looked for them myself); I only posted the question because it's a different thread and someone else might have unpublished knowledge about it. You never know.