Panasonic EH59 help

[Maldez]

Yes, a BD recorder can record SD material.

But please keep that fact in the larger perspective we're giving you: BD recorders have no practical use in USA/Canada unless you make a lot of HD videos with a camera *and* that camera is compatible with the input of the recorder *and* you need to have immediate BD discs available to give to family members (or clients if you're a pro).

Otherwise, its a total waste: the BD recorder price will always be in the $1000 range, more than double the cost of an EH59 and triple the cost of a Magnavox. Why pay for a BD feature you can't use? The machines are not even as flexible as a PC for for disc formats: at least with a PC, you can record about 10 hours of top-DVD-quality standard-def video onto a single BD disc, which can considerably cut down on storage space for your SD recordings. But the standalone BD recorders won't do this:you can choose standard def on DVD, or full-out BD recording, but no compromises. ......

My vision was to have a recording machine that I could incorporate into my "home theatre" which would play all forms of US DVDs, both now and long into the future. An added bonus would be that as a BD machine is HD I could run my Directv signal directly to the blu-ray device and have the output signal go directly to my Sony HD TV, without changing Inputs, as I do now, when going back and forth between my TV and DVR.

Yes, there would be an extra cost but it just might be worth it to me to have a recording device, as I did in the past with my Pioneer Elite 7000 and SD TV, that did not require changing the Inputs to use. Of course, when I went to a HD TV that went by the wayside and I have one of two choices:

1) When recording, watch my TV program in SD because I switched the Input to the DVR, which then allows me to see the DVR menus.

2) Watch the program in HD but then lose visibility the the on-screen DVR menus.

I would definitely pay the extra cash to get a system where no Input changing was needed and I always had a HD signal.

[usually_quiet]

My vision was to have a recording machine that I could incorporate into my "home theatre" which would play all forms of US DVDs, both now and long into the future. An added bonus would be that as a BD machine is HD I could run my Directv signal directly to the blu-ray device and have the output signal go directly to my Sony HD TV, without changing Inputs, as I do now, when going back and forth between my TV and DVR.

Yes, there would be an extra cost but it just might be worth it to me to have a recording device, as I did in the past with my Pioneer Elite 7000 and SD TV, that did not require changing the Inputs to use. Of course, when I went to a HD TV that went by the wayside and I have one of two choices:

1) When recording, watch my TV program in SD because I switched the Input to the DVR, which then allows me to see the DVR menus.

2) Watch the program in HD but then lose visibility the the on-screen DVR menus.

I would definitely pay the extra cash to get a system where no Input changing was needed and I always had a HD signal.

Have we finally managed to convince you that the consumer electronics device you want does not exist in N. America and never will?

The closest thing to what you want that actually does exist in N. America would be a home theater PC. You would have guide-based recording, and a recorder that can change the channels on your set top box by itself. A very nice HTPC could be put together for $1200 (maybe less) and could be made to look like a a piece of deluxe home theater equipment.

There are some catches of course. Specialized HTPC cases that look like home theater equipment can be purchased, but such HTPCs are custom-built or self-built machines. Setting up PVR software to work with a set-top box is somewhat complicated. (I do not have a dedicated HTPC myself yet, but do I have first-hand experience setting up PVR software to record from a set-top box.)

Editing video and audio with a PC is not difficult to learn, but requires finding the right software. Creating playable DVDs and Blu-Rays is possible, but it isn't automated. You have to be personally involved. (Yes, I have done some of that as well, for DVD only.) That's why people with HTPCs tend to keep their recordings in files on a hard drive.

Playing Blu-Ray discs with a PC requires purchasing commercial software that costs as much as an inexpensive stand-alone Blu-Ray player. It may be wiser to get a regular stand-alone Blu-Ray player instead.

[Maldez]

Have we finally managed to convince you that the consumer electronics device you want does not exist in N. America and never will?

The closest thing to what you want that actually does exist in N. America would be a home theater PC. You would have guide-based recording, and a recorder that can change the channels on your set top box by itself. A very nice HTPC could be put together for $1200 (maybe less) and could be made to look like a a piece of deluxe home theater equipment.

There are some catches of course. Specialized HTPC cases that look like home theater equipment can be purchased, but such HTPCs are custom-built or self-built machines. Setting up PVR software to work with a set-top box is somewhat complicated. (I do not have a dedicated HTPC myself yet, but do I have first-hand experience setting up PVR software to record from a set-top box.)

Editing video and audio with a PC is not difficult to learn, but requires finding the right software. Creating playable DVDs and Blu-Rays is possible, but it isn't automated. You have to be personally involved. (Yes, I have done some of that as well, for DVD only.) That's why people with HTPCs tend to keep their recordings in files on a hard drive.

Playing Blu-Ray discs with a PC requires purchasing commercial software that costs as much as an inexpensive stand-alone Blu-Ray player. It may be wiser to get a regular stand-alone Blu-Ray player instead.

You haven't quite convinced me yet, but you're almost there. Humor me. Why wouldn't a blu-ray recorder do what I want? Isn't its circuitry "hi-def capable" ?

Sorry for being obtuse about this but I'm not an electronics engineer....obviously.

[orsetto]

Maldez, we do not now and probably never will have a device with all the features you seek.

I do understand what you're saying, you essentially want the same functionality we had using a DVD/HDD recorder in 2005 with analog TV signals and analog SD televisions. This was in fact supposed to happen with the transition to BluRay/HDD recorders. But the whole thing fell apart in North America due to ongoing fierce price resistance to existing $449 DVD/HDD models, fear that we would never pay $1299 or even $899 for a BD upgrade, and the monkey wrench caused by the TiVO PVR concept becoming a standard-issue bundled cable/satellite option. In Europe and Asia, BD/HDD flourished for a time because there was much less price resistance and the machines had integrated HDTV tuners for OTA and satellite (there is no cable complication outside North America). After a couple years, the bloom fell off the rose: the economy tanked, the popular top-quality $500 DVD/HDD recorders were discontinued in Europe, and their migration to BD/HDD stalled out. Today, the fad in Europe is for cheaper units that cannot burn discs: basically they're TiVOs with a built-in BD/DVD player. We in USA/Canada will probably not even get those, because the cable/satellite craziness here just kills their usability (you'd still be stuck with no HDTV passthru feature: everything would be SD as it is now with DVD recorders and the pro JVC BluRay recorders).

Since you have satellite, you're trapped in the satellite ecosystem now. The closest approximation you can pull off is using a satellite PVR as your recorder and just adding a BD/DVD player. There is no way- none whatsoever, so don't even do a Google search- to record the HDTV output from a North American satellite box into a standalone. The only BD recorders for sale here don't have satellite tuners like their European counterparts, because our satellite service is not uniform and state-controlled. BD recorders don't have component or HDMI inputs, only limited USB2 and FireWire connectivity that requires a compatible camera signal. So a BD recorder offers no advantage over your EH59 aside from the ability to play both BD and DVD discs (in exchange for that you'd lose the timer recording option as usually_quiet mentioned in an earlier post).

The only truly simple yet flexible setup for USA/Canada that would work as you desire is the combination of a TiVO-HD, cable service (instead of satellite), and a PC. Due to various lawsuit settlements, TiVO is the only recorder the cable companies grudgingly allow to tap directly into their encrypted systems. So the TiVO can record in full HiDef from all HD cable channels using its integrated guide system. The higher-end TiVO model has a network connection allowing it to quickly dump its recordings in digital form to your PC, where you can easily create standard-def DVDs, HiDef AVCHD DVDs, or BluRay discs. IOW, the combination of TiVO and your PC effectively functions just like a DVD/HDD recorder (but in hi def).

A TiVO with the PC interface and lump-sum, upfront lifetime subscription fee costs approx $600, not bad considering the cost of a BD recorder that won't interface with satellite or cable. Those who can't get (or don't want) cable+TiVO are SOL, as there is no other device that comes close for convenience and integration. Satellite is an island unto itself with no recordable HD connection. If you have good off-air reception and are willing to forgo specialty channels, you can set up an HTPC, the HTPC concept also works for some cable subscribers depending on the specific channel package and particular cable provider (with cable I'd cut my losses and just go with the TiVO).

I think the key point that you aren't quite grasping is the difference between how BD recorders are designed compared to DVD. Our old DVD recorders were created for an analog, standard-def world using analog broadcasts that could be passed thru with no quality loss between "live" off-air and recorded material. They used the same old composite connections dating back to the 70s VCR era. As long as you understood their quirks, they were a drop-in replacement for a VCR: no basic difference in functionality.

BluRay is something else altogether. It was designed for the digital HDTV era, so it takes into account piracy concerns that weren't all that crucial with DVD (because with BD, your HD recordings from TV can rival or surpass commercial Hollywood discs). So BD is completely locked down from using line inputs to record in HD from external HD boxes like cable or satellite decoders (they can't even pass thru external HD signals, only SD). Right from the drafting board, BD was engineered so that its sole source for HD signal is its built-in tuner. This was not a problem in the larger global market- as I've repeated until I'm blue in the face, there are no "rogue" cable or satellite services outside North America. In every other Western country, satellite is standardized to conform to a specific tuning system, and cable doesn't exist. It was therefore a simple matter to equip BD recorders with the same dual broadcast+satellite tuners that were available in many DVD/HDD models, updated for HDTV. Between the satellite and broadcast tuners, there was no need for a piracy-facilitating HD line input. Hollywood was happy, and consumers were happy.

Except, of course, in USA/Canada where we stupidly allow cable and satellite to run amok, self-regulate, and force us to suffer a plethora of proprietary, incompatible tuners and decoding systems that cannot be integrated into recorders not provided by those companies for a monthly fee (the sole exception being TiVO, because cable/sat arguably uses TiVO patents and rather than drag out a lawsuit they play along). When you break it down to the simplest issue, its this: independent name-brand recorders work perfectly everywhere in the world just like you want, Maldez- just not in North America. The HD connections simply aren't there. You get the old SD connections, and thats it. You can lead a BluRay recorder to North America, but you can't make it drink (or pass thru) HD from a cable or satellite box.

The End.

[usually_quiet]

You haven't quite convinced me yet, but you're almost there. Humor me. Why wouldn't a blu-ray recorder do what I want? Isn't its circuitry "hi-def capable" ?

Sorry for being obtuse about this but I'm not an electronics engineer....obviously.

The Blu-Ray recorders sold in the US do not have any HD video inputs that are compatible with a set top box. As orsetto pointed out, the only HD-capable inputs they have, firewire, USB, and BNC (for HD SDI), are designed to be used with cameras. There are no analog component video inputs and no HDMI input. So, with no connections that can record the HD output from a satellite receiver, how do you plan to record anything in HD from yours?

British and Australian Blu-Ray recorders are only able to record PAL SD analog signals via SD inputs, plus 1080i/25, 720p/50 and 576i/25 via analog component. So how do you plan to use them to record the output from a N. American satellite receiver that uses N. American video standards (NTSC, 1080i/30, 720p/60 and 480i/30) for its output?

Would a Japanese Blu-Ray recorder work? The black levels would be wrong for the US, and you will need to be fluent in written Japanese to use one. Otherwise, it is hard to say since there is no way for most of us to read the specs. They may not have any HDMI or analog component video inputs to record the HD video output from a satellite receiver. If you are fluent in written Japanese, feel free to research them and report back to us.

[Maldez]

Maldez, we do not now and probably never will have a device with all the features you seek.

I do understand what you're saying, you essentially want the same functionality we had using a DVD/HDD recorder in 2005 with analog TV signals and analog SD televisions. ......

Since you have satellite, you're trapped in the satellite ecosystem now. The closest approximation you can pull off is using a satellite PVR as your recorder and just adding a BD/DVD player. ....The End.

Orsetto, once again you've gone well over and above the call of duty and provided me with all the education and information I could have hoped for on this topic. And, alas, the horse has been beaten to death. I will not get what I want, 'cause it doesn't exist...ar least in North America.

But the good news is I can almost get what I want with one of Directv's fancy HD receivers, in conjuction with my EH59 recorder, and Pioneer DVD player that I'm bringing out of retirement. The Directv receiver will eliminate the need to change inputs several times a day, as 99.5% of my recordings will be on the PVR. On the rare occassion, maybe once a week, tops, that I want to burn something onto a DVD for adding to my collection, I'll have to do a little finagaling to get my video over to the EH59, but that should not be a major hurdle. The problem with the EH59 not playing "Hollywood" DVDs is remediated with the Pioneer player, so all is right with the world.

And, oh, by the way, the PVR will eliminate that annoying Directv message "Your TV or its cables are not HD!" That in itself will be worth using the PVR. Maybe that's Directv's evil plan?

I thank you for the very generous expenditure of your time to deal with my lunk-headed questions. I enjoyed all of your offerings and learned a lot. Still a lunk-head, but learning!

[usually_quiet]

And, oh, by the way, the PVR will eliminate that annoying Directv message "Your TV or its cables are not HD!" That in itself will be worth using the PVR. Maybe that's Directv's evil plan?

You won't see that message as often, but whenever you set up the DVR to output SD video for the Panasonic EH59 to save something on DVD, you likely will see it again.

[tonypeter]

BTW, I called B&H today just in case they knew something you experts didn't. A waste of two minutes. They essentially said the unit is not made to work in the US, so either accept it as it is or return it for a refund.

When you call customer service at B&H they just take orders or process returns. As far the people at the store I'm sure that Orsetto is correct that they know their stuff. However what's relevant that you have ordered a 'region free' recorder but it seems the one you got is not. Many people ordered 'region free' stuff from them, including myself, and received it exactly what was expected. If your unit is really not 'region free' you should return it for an exchange or refund.

Before you do, check few things. On the back of the unit there must be a symbolic globe wit a number in the center. This number should be 3, 4 or 2. Then check the manual, on front page or close to it it should say that the unit supports Asia region 3, New Zealand 4, and Middle East 2. If on back you have number 3 (or 4) and your manual is for Asia/ NZ/ ME, the recorder should be 'region free'. If the number on the back is 2 and on top of it your manual is an European version, the recorder is not 'region free'. In such a case the B&H made a mistake and had sent you a wrong unit. I vaguely remember that sometimes they sell region 2 (non 'region free') but it says so in the description and usually those are open box / returns.