Panasonic EH59 help

[jjeff]

One last question on the EH59's performance. There is a "Skip" button that I assumed would just advance my video in 30 second intervals as my Pioneer had. But to my surprise, and delight, the unit advances through entire segments of commercials, be they two, three, four minutes or anywhere in between. How the heck does it do that?

The "skip" button is the same as the NEXT or PREV chapter buttons. I believe default is chapters every 5 minutes so pushing that button on things you've recorded should just jump to the next(or previous) 5 minute interval
The TIME SLIP button is the one that advances or jumps back 1 minute for each push(if you hold it down it registers 10 minutes) and is a very handy button IMO.

[Maldez]

[QUOTE=jjeff;2165324The "skip" button is the same as the NEXT or PREV chapter buttons. I believe default is chapters every 5 minutes so pushing that button on things you've recorded should just jump to the next(or previous) 5 minute interval
The TIME SLIP button is the one that advances or jumps back 1 minute for each push(if you hold it down it registers 10 minutes) and is a very handy button IMO.[/QUOTE]

But the EH59 doesn't advance in identical 5-minute or 4-minute segments every time I press Skip. It seems to know when a round of commercials has ended regardless of whether it's just a 1 minute commercial or 5 minutes of ten 30-second commercials. Pressing Skip brings me to the start of the actual programming. Unless I'm just imagining things. Maybe I need to up my meds.

[jjeff]

When I've pushed it just goes to the next chapter mark(note the first push will probably not be 5 minutes unless you pushed it exactly after a chapter mark, the second push should be 5 minutes). Select VCRs of yesteryear use to have such a commercial skip button(it detected the fade to black that followed the last commercial) but I though advertisers got aware of that feature and somehow changed how they ended a commercial. I also didn't think that feature made it to DVDRs again the big companies that made DVDRs also owned media companies and easily skipping commercials(other than by FF) was kind of counter productive to their advertisers.

[Maldez]

I've yet to figure out what the EH59 is detecting to make it advance past the commercials right to the beginning of the programming, but I'll keep experimenting. I don't notice any fade to black before or after the commercials. Pretty weird but I like it~

[orsetto]

Shhhh! Keep it under your hat, Maldez: it's probably an "undocumented feature" you stumbled on during your PAL/NTSC format mashup. I would not be at all surprised if Panasonic was capable of flawless commercial detection and skipping, given some of the other surprising convenience features of the EH59, but if you publicize it too much it'll get banned from the USA.

Seriously, though, jjeff is likely correct: whatever shows you've been recording must have ad breaks that coincidentally match perfectly with the standard skip function of the EH59. Current commercials are carefully merged into and out of the shows, to intentionally thwart auto detection and later removal. This practice is disgustingly effective, tho I have heard of some recent PC-based DVR systems that are remarkably good at tagging commercials.

[Maldez]

Shhhh! Keep it under your hat, Maldez: it's probably an "undocumented feature" you stumbled on during your PAL/NTSC format mashup. I would not be at all surprised if Panasonic was capable of flawless commercial detection and skipping, given some of the other surprising convenience features of the EH59, but if you publicize it too much it'll get banned from the USA.

Seriously, though, jjeff is likely correct: whatever shows you've been recording must have ad breaks that coincidentally match perfectly with the standard skip function of the EH59. Current commercials are carefully merged into and out of the shows, to intentionally thwart auto detection and later removal. This practice is disgustingly effective, tho I have heard of some recent PC-based DVR systems that are remarkably good at tagging commercials.

That would make sense if every time I pressed "Skip" the video advanced exactly 3 minutes, 4 minutes, or whatever, but it advances at odd lengths like 2 minutes and 15 seconds one time, then exactly one minute the next, and 4 and a half minutes the time after that, all which just happen to be the length of the commercials in between the programming.

I know it sounds goofy, but I have witnessed it happen on a regular basis.

[Maldez]

BTW, I called B&H today just in case they knew something you experts didn't. A waste of two minutes. They essentially said the unit is not made to work in the US, so either accept it as it is or return it for a refund.

[jjeff]

BTW, I called B&H today just in case they knew something you experts didn't. A waste of two minutes. They essentially said the unit is not made to work in the US, so either accept it as it is or return it for a refund.

Yep, with grey market products your pretty much on your own, even Panasonic USA doesn't really want to touch them. For repair you kind of need to find your own place. A regular poster on AVSforum.com "MICKINCT" has many praises for repairing Panasonic DVDRs, but if your like me you won't have any problems for many many years. Knock on wood I've never had a DVDR failure in thousands of DVDs.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1400807

[Maldez]

Well, other than its quirkiness in not playing many US commercial DVDs the EH59 is probably the best machine out there available for purchase, so I'll be hanging onto mine. Then there's also the warnings you guys have been making about DVD recorders slowly becoming extinct over the next few years making them coveted collectors pieces. If you actually see a time when recording to a DVD disc is not a possibility it makes me wonder if picking up another EH59 to put into storage makes sense.

[jjeff]

I have no doubt standalone DVDRs aren't long for this world Just look at the number of available models not only in the US but now Europe and the rest of the world. Other than the recently discontinued Magnavox HDD models the Panasonics are about all that is left in N. America.
Personally I have my eye out for a customer return from B&H of either a EH-59 or EH-69. This is how I got my EH-59, for $249 it was a steal although a while back when I saw another return I believe it was $269 which was still probably a good deal but I passed. I haven't seen any for 6?? months but I keep looking.
Generally Panasonics are very reliable although it's not unheard of to have a laser failure(very rare but still happens) but if this were to happen to me I wouldn't hesitate to send mine to MICKinCT. It's up to you if you want to purchase a spare, again in the rare event they fail they can generally be fixed quite reasonably I guess something like a lightning strike, theft or if it got dropped and major things got broke a spare might be nice. Personally I really like standalone DVDRs and Panasonics work very well for me which is why I'm considering another one, I really don't think they'll be around much longer or replaced by something newer or something like a BD recorder. Recording to physical media is all but dead, especially on standalone recorders like these

[Maldez]

I have no doubt standalone DVDRs aren't long for this world Just look at the number of available models not only in the US but now Europe and the rest of the world. Other than the recently discontinued Magnavox HDD models the Panasonics are about all that is left in N. America.
Personally I have my eye out for a customer return from B&H of either a EH-59 or EH-69. This is how I got my EH-59, for $249 it was a steal although a while back when I saw another return I believe it was $269 which was still probably a good deal but I passed. I haven't seen any for 6?? months but I keep looking.
Generally Panasonics are very reliable although it's not unheard of to have a laser failure(very rare but still happens) but if this were to happen to me I wouldn't hesitate to send mine to MICKinCT. It's up to you if you want to purchase a spare, again in the rare event they fail they can generally be fixed quite reasonably I guess something like a lightning strike, theft or if it got dropped and major things got broke a spare might be nice. Personally I really like standalone DVDRs and Panasonics work very well for me which is why I'm considering another one, I really don't think they'll be around much longer or replaced by something newer or something like a BD recorder. Recording to physical media is all but dead, especially on standalone recorders like these

So, if the future doesn't include standalone DVD recorders, what are people going to save their movies and TV programs on? To me there's so much appeal to keeping my various video keepsakes, be they NFL games, documentaries, or movies, on DVD discs. I like the fact that the discs can be kept in jewel cases with artwork covers, and then arranged in some fashion that allows you access to them. What's the alternative? Big hard drives?

And btw, I wasn't thinking of picking up the 2nd EH59 for spare parts if the first unit breaks down, but to use maybe several years from now in the world of no standalone DVD recorders.

[usually_quiet]

So, if the future doesn't include standalone DVD recorders, what are people going to save their movies and TV programs on? To me there's so much appeal to keeping my various video keepsakes, be they NFL games, documentaries, or movies, on DVD discs. I like the fact that the discs can be kept in jewel cases with artwork covers, and then arranged in some fashion that allows you access to them. What's the alternative? Big hard drives?

And btw, I wasn't thinking of picking up the 2nd EH59 for spare parts if the first unit breaks down, but to use maybe several years from now in the world of no standalone DVD recorders.

In the minds of most people, you and I and everyone else who still uses a DVD recorder is an oddball and probably hold on to too many recordings of things that will never be watched again.

Recording to a hard drive has already replaced DVDs and a recording system that only makes encrypted recordings on a hard drive suits the vast majority consumers perfectly. Most people do not care about saving the programming they record for perpetuity and prefers not having the expense, clutter and inconvenience associated with using shiny little discs as a recording medium. If someone really wants a permanent copy of a recording, it is usually possible to re-record in very good quality using a computer or buy it on DVD or Blu Ray. However, the bulk of the population only wants convenient watch and erase recording, or only want copies of a few things that are important to them, not everything they record.

Documenataries are usually availble on DVD or Blu-ray. Commercial DVD and Blu-ray allows serious fans to enjoy watching their favorite TV series again without the distraction of pop-up announcements, crawls, and station bugs. Not many people are interested in collecting sporting events, but it is sometimes possible to buy a copy of important ones, like the Superbowl, on DVD.

[orsetto]

There are cultural forces at work right now that are a complete utter mystery to some of us.

As usually-quiet said above, those of us who like to archive and collect much of what we record are considered the oddballs now, even tho 10 or 12 years ago we were part of the mainstream. The trouble with the "mainstream" is it now moves much too quickly, jumping on every "new" invention or paradigm or system without a second thought, regardless of potential pitfalls (and dragging everyone else along for the ride, whether we like it or not).

Some of these shifts are understandable even if we disagree: DVD and BD recorders were DOA in USA/Canada because our greedy anarchic cable providers make it impossible to use them easily. All the people who boast that they're "off the grid and wouldn't be caught dead with cable or satellite" miss the point: they are statistically irrelevant. Most North Americans who rely on OTA exclusively tend not to record at all, so they don't constitute a sustainable market for recorders, while the majority of cable and satellite users are addicted to PVRs and TiVO. Once they tasted the "point and click" integrated timer grid interface, DVD and BD recorders were as good as dead: they can't compete with this convenience because they are locked out of the decoder box/encryption/EPG system. The small subgroup of us avid video collectors willing to tolerate letterboxed standard-def PQ and tedious setting of multiple separate timers isn't big enough to create a viable market for DVD/HDD or BD/HDD recorders. This will have unfortunate further consequences down the road, as everyone gets slowly dragged into a "pay as you go for every little bit of media consumption," but the mass market seems willing to go that way as long as they get their conveniences.

Just look at what happened to video rental stores: they're virtually gone now from the large cities. The last remaining great video shop in Manhattan (a legend for 30 years) closed a couple weeks ago, leaving a gaping hole behind. Despite the insatiable market here for cult movies, independent films and foreign/art films, bricks & mortar rental shops are no longer economically viable. They depended on the everyday video consumer to make the rent, but the everyday consumer has jumped all over friggin NetFlix. This is extremely frustrating, because NetFlix often doesn't have the obscure stuff in sufficient quantity (or available at all). The little neighborhood stores used to accommodate a wide variety of tastes, stocking niche, older and out of print dvds, but now we're all lumped in with the Top 40 NetFlix playlist and too bad if you want something else. At the same time, the cable channels that used to be a backup source for this stuff are all shifting over to thinly-veiled reality shows and reruns of commercial hits, or moving from "uncut with no ads" to "butchered with tons of ads." These days, unless you happen to be at the Tribeca Film Festival or Sundance, forget any opportunity to see anything other than the latest comic book movie (not a slam, I like comic book movies).

The NetFlix mentality has infected areas of life we used to take completely for granted. There is a huge debate going on here in Brooklyn because the only supermarket in a neighborhood with no other grocery options is going out of business (to be replaced by a chain drugstore). Why? Because the "gentrifying" newcomers are all iPhone-addled morons who order everything from grapefruits to tampons from FreshDirect and other web vendors. They wouldn't know what an actual store was if it fell on them. This will have dire consequences for many of the elderly here, and many others who relied on the supermarket and really don't like the idea of not being able to just run out and buy eggs or milk or produce without having to travel a mile or use the wretched internet. But its a losing battle: we have two generations now that would be crippled without online vendors and have no use whatever for local actual stores. Its absurd that you can't even buy a head of lettuce without an iPhone in some big-city neighborhoods, but this is what its come to: the "convenience" demanded by some tramples the lives of everyone else. (I really don't get the online grocery thing at all: I'm an eBay seller, I buy stuff from Amazon and other sites, I'm here on VH, but I still want a supermarket within ten blocks of my home).

[Maldez]

In the minds of most people, you and I and everyone else who still uses a DVD recorder is an oddball and probably hold on to too many recordings of things that will never be watched again.

Recording to a hard drive has already replaced DVDs and a recording system that only makes encrypted recordings on a hard drive suits the vast majority consumers perfectly. Most people do not care about saving the programming they record for perpetuity and prefers not having the expense, clutter and inconvenience associated with using shiny little discs as a recording medium. If someone really wants a permanent copy of a recording, it is usually possible to re-record in very good quality using a computer or buy it on DVD or Blu Ray. However, the bulk of the population only wants convenient watch and erase recording, or only want copies of a few things that are important to them, not everything they record.

Documenataries are usually availble on DVD or Blu-ray. Commercial DVD and Blu-ray allows serious fans to enjoy watching their favorite TV series again without the distraction of pop-up announcements, crawls, and station bugs. Not many people are interested in collecting sporting events, but it is sometimes possible to buy a copy of important ones, like the Superbowl, on DVD.

Well, first of all it's pretty disheartening to be swept along in life by the tastes of the masses, as I don't have much of an appreciation for what the herd finds entertaining or worthwhile. One word - Facebook - need I say more?

Be that as it may, I still have faith that there are enough people out there who, like us "oddballs", will want to own DVDs, to add to their libraries, and to enjoy for as long as there is video content to record and purchase. I just Googled "the end of DVDs" and found a number of sites where people are lamenting what's being bandied about these days, and that is just what you and the rest of the crowd here are saying - DVDs are on the way out. And like myself, these people are saying "Hell no! I'll never jump on the download bandwagon !"

It remains to be seen how this plays out but I have to believe DVDs will be here for many years to come. Weren't music CDs also predicted to become extinct? I don't see any end in sight for them either.

[Maldez]

There are cultural forces at work right now that are a complete utter mystery to some of us.

As usually-quiet said above, those of us who like to archive and collect much of what we record are considered the oddballs now, even tho 10 or 12 years ago we were part of the mainstream. The trouble with the "mainstream" is it now moves much too quickly, jumping on every "new" invention or paradigm or system without a second thought, regardless of potential pitfalls (and dragging everyone else along for the ride, whether we like it or not).

Some of these shifts are understandable even if we disagree: DVD and BD recorders were DOA in USA/Canada because our greedy anarchic cable providers make it impossible to use them easily. All the people who boast that they're "off the grid and wouldn't be caught dead with cable or satellite" miss the point: they are statistically irrelevant. Most North Americans who rely on OTA exclusively tend not to record at all, so they don't constitute a sustainable market for recorders, while the majority of cable and satellite users are addicted to PVRs and TiVO. Once they tasted the "point and click" integrated timer grid interface, DVD and BD recorders were as good as dead: they can't compete with this convenience because they are locked out of the decoder box/encryption/EPG system. The small subgroup of us avid video collectors willing to tolerate letterboxed standard-def PQ and tedious setting of multiple separate timers isn't big enough to create a viable market for DVD/HDD or BD/HDD recorders. This will have unfortunate further consequences down the road, as everyone gets slowly dragged into a "pay as you go for every little bit of media consumption," but the mass market seems willing to go that way as long as they get their conveniences.

Just look at what happened to video rental stores: they're virtually gone now from the large cities. The last remaining great video shop in Manhattan (a legend for 30 years) closed a couple weeks ago, leaving a gaping hole behind. Despite the insatiable market here for cult movies, independent films and foreign/art films, bricks & mortar rental shops are no longer economically viable. They depended on the everyday video consumer to make the rent, but the everyday consumer has jumped all over friggin NetFlix. This is extremely frustrating, because NetFlix often doesn't have the obscure stuff in sufficient quantity (or available at all). The little neighborhood stores used to accommodate a wide variety of tastes, stocking niche, older and out of print dvds, but now we're all lumped in with the Top 40 NetFlix playlist and too bad if you want something else. At the same time, the cable channels that used to be a backup source for this stuff are all shifting over to thinly-veiled reality shows and reruns of commercial hits, or moving from "uncut with no ads" to "butchered with tons of ads." These days, unless you happen to be at the Tribeca Film Festival or Sundance, forget any opportunity to see anything other than the latest comic book movie (not a slam, I like comic book movies).

The NetFlix mentality has infected areas of life we used to take completely for granted. There is a huge debate going on here in Brooklyn because the only supermarket in a neighborhood with no other grocery options is going out of business (to be replaced by a chain drugstore). Why? Because the "gentrifying" newcomers are all iPhone-addled morons who order everything from grapefruits to tampons from FreshDirect and other web vendors. They wouldn't know what an actual store was if it fell on them. This will have dire consequences for many of the elderly here, and many others who relied on the supermarket and really don't like the idea of not being able to just run out and buy eggs or milk or produce without having to travel a mile or use the wretched internet. But its a losing battle: we have two generations now that would be crippled without online vendors and have no use whatever for local actual stores. Its absurd that you can't even buy a head of lettuce without an iPhone in some big-city neighborhoods, but this is what its come to: the "convenience" demanded by some tramples the lives of everyone else. (I really don't get the online grocery thing at all: I'm an eBay seller, I buy stuff from Amazon and other sites, I'm here on VH, but I still want a supermarket within ten blocks of my home).

Orsetto, I see that you are another "oddball" who appreciates the convenience and facility of the DVD, and I'm sure you have quite a library assembled. And as I mentioned above to your comrad, usually_quiet, I have a very strong feeling that the DVD is not going anywhere anytime soon. The downloaders and pay-per-viewers of the world can download and PPV all they want but there will still be that chunk of humanity that wants to own their videos, be they store-bought or recorded from TV.

As always, you have a lot of interesting observations. Yes, there is a "Netflix" mentality descending upon us, but don't lose heart, as trends tend to come and go in waves. There was a time when it looked like America Online was going to take over the world. I mean AOL had a stranglehold on America's internet access and it look like it would ever lose it. Now AOL's a joke. They can't give their service away for free. And I remember when Yahoo's stock was like $450 a share, looking like it was going to the moon, along with all the other internet start-ups. A few of the very best survived, the rest left in the rubble of the internet implosion.

My point is, don't assume you can see the future just because you've got your eye on today's wave.

Anywho, what's a DVD fan to do if he really believers there will be no DVDs or equipment to play them on in the future? Stock up on blank discs? Stockpile recorders?

[jjeff]

Anywho, what's a DVD fan to do if he really believers there will be no DVDs or equipment to play them on in the future? Stock up on blank discs? Stockpile recorders?

Anyone who doesn't think DVDRs could go away need only to look at VCRs, I would have never believed it in the 90s but by the late 00s one couldn't buy even one brand of VCR
AFA blank DVDs, I don't think they will go away anytime soon but I believe the last new manufactured VHS tapes were a couple years ago you still may be able to find new VHS tapes but they are all old stock....
Well I guess blank DVDs are somewhat going away, at least quality ones, both Costco and before that Sams Club stopped carrying quality DVDs and now just carry bottom of the barrel CMC media

[usually_quiet]

Anyone who doesn't think DVDRs could go away need only to look at VCRs, I would have never believed it in the 90s but by the late 00s one couldn't buy even one brand of VCR
AFA blank DVDs, I don't think they will go away anytime soon but I believe the last new manufactured VHS tapes were a couple years ago you still may be able to find new VHS tapes but they are all old stock....
Well I guess blank DVDs are somewhat going away, at least quality ones, both Costco and before that Sams Club stopped carrying quality DVDs and now just carry bottom of the barrel CMC media

As I recall, movie studios had virtually stopped releasing new movies on VHS after 2004. That's why I bought a DVD recorder in 2005. I couldn't rent movies on VHS anymore.

It isn't just DVD recorders that are virtually extinct in the US. The number of players available that only play DVDs is rapidly dwindling. Consumers are replacing their DVD players with Blu-ray players instead. While Blu-ray players do play DVDs, they lack some of the features that deluxe DVD players used to have, and soon no Blu-Ray players will be made with any analog outputs, not even composite. Only HDMI will be allowed by the technology license for AACS, the primary type of copy protection for Blu-Ray.

This poses a problem for those who use US closed captions on DVDs. HDMI is incapable of providing a closed caption signal for a TV to decode, and Blu-ray players don't decode and display them. Using English subtitles on DVDs a possible solution, but some DVDs were produced with no English subtitles, only closed captions.

[Maldez]

Anywho, what's a DVD fan to do if he really believers there will be no DVDs or equipment to play them on in the future? Stock up on blank discs? Stockpile recorders?

Anyone who doesn't think DVDRs could go away need only to look at VCRs, I would have never believed it in the 90s but by the late 00s one couldn't buy even one brand of VCR
AFA blank DVDs, I don't think they will go away anytime soon but I believe the last new manufactured VHS tapes were a couple years ago you still may be able to find new VHS tapes but they are all old stock....
Well I guess blank DVDs are somewhat going away, at least quality ones, both Costco and before that Sams Club stopped carrying quality DVDs and now just carry bottom of the barrel CMC media

You can't compare the actual death of VHS to the surmised future of DVD. DVDs came along and totally whiped-out VHS tapes because DVD discs did everything that VHS tapes did but did it all far, far better. There was no reason for VHS to survive other than that the world was already awash in VHS tapes and VCRs. Time would slowly take care of that.

But there's nothing out there now, or on the horizon as far as I know, that does everything DVD discs do. There are some options now to circumvent DVD and download your movies off the internet and so forth, but that does nothing to satisfy the needs of the "oddballs" who want to own their videos and build their libraries. I will always be an oddball in that way, and too many other ways to go into here, so I don't see DVDs going the way of the VHS tape for many, many years.

[Maldez]

Anyone who doesn't think DVDRs could go away need only to look at VCRs, I would have never believed it in the 90s but by the late 00s one couldn't buy even one brand of VCR
AFA blank DVDs, I don't think they will go away anytime soon but I believe the last new manufactured VHS tapes were a couple years ago you still may be able to find new VHS tapes but they are all old stock....
Well I guess blank DVDs are somewhat going away, at least quality ones, both Costco and before that Sams Club stopped carrying quality DVDs and now just carry bottom of the barrel CMC media

As I recall, movie studios had virtually stopped releasing new movies on VHS after 2004. That's why I bought a DVD recorder in 2005. I couldn't rent movies on VHS anymore.

It isn't just DVD recorders that are virtually extinct in the US. The number of players available that only play DVDs is rapidly dwindling. Consumers are replacing their DVD players with Blu-ray players instead. While Blu-ray players do play DVDs, they lack some of the features that deluxe DVD players used to have, and soon no Blu-Ray players will be made with any analog outputs, not even composite. Only HDMI will be allowed by the technology license for AACS, the primary type of copy protection for Blu-Ray.

This poses a problem for those who use US closed captions on DVDs. HDMI is incapable of providing a closed caption signal for a TV to decode, and Blu-ray players don't decode and display them. Using English subtitles on DVDs a possible solution, but some DVDs were produced with no English subtitles, only closed captions.

You can still buy turntables and vinyl LPs all these years after the digital revolution, so IMO you will certainly be able to buy DVDs and DVD players for quite some.

[usually_quiet]

You aren't seeing the full picture, maldez. While there will probably need to be some kind of physical media for distribution for a while yet because high-spead Internet service suitable for streaming is not universal, DVD is not going to be the physical medium that survives.

If a superior format is all that is necessary to kill DVD, it is already here. Blu-Ray is better than DVD from a technical standpoint, and Blu-ray players are outselling DVD players. Once people have a Blu-ray player, they tend to buy Blu-Rays rather than DVDs when there is a choice. At some point in the near future, new Blu-ray releases will outsell new DVD releases by a large enough margin that the studios will stop releasing new movies and TV shows on DVD.

[usually_quiet]

Anyone who doesn't think DVDRs could go away need only to look at VCRs, I would have never believed it in the 90s but by the late 00s one couldn't buy even one brand of VCR
AFA blank DVDs, I don't think they will go away anytime soon but I believe the last new manufactured VHS tapes were a couple years ago you still may be able to find new VHS tapes but they are all old stock....
Well I guess blank DVDs are somewhat going away, at least quality ones, both Costco and before that Sams Club stopped carrying quality DVDs and now just carry bottom of the barrel CMC media

As I recall, movie studios had virtually stopped releasing new movies on VHS after 2004. That's why I bought a DVD recorder in 2005. I couldn't rent movies on VHS anymore.

It isn't just DVD recorders that are virtually extinct in the US. The number of players available that only play DVDs is rapidly dwindling. Consumers are replacing their DVD players with Blu-ray players instead. While Blu-ray players do play DVDs, they lack some of the features that deluxe DVD players used to have, and soon no Blu-Ray players will be made with any analog outputs, not even composite. Only HDMI will be allowed by the technology license for AACS, the primary type of copy protection for Blu-Ray.

This poses a problem for those who use US closed captions on DVDs. HDMI is incapable of providing a closed caption signal for a TV to decode, and Blu-ray players don't decode and display them. Using English subtitles on DVDs a possible solution, but some DVDs were produced with no English subtitles, only closed captions.

You can still buy turntables and vinyl LPs all these years after the digital revolution, so IMO you will certainly be able to buy DVDs and DVD players for quite some.

For a few years you couldn't really buy a turntable or a new record on vinyl. The current revival suits nostalgic baby-boomers and collectors of old music, but it will die out in time. Oh and by the way, the large font you have chosen is equivalent to shouting.

[orsetto]

You can still buy turntables and vinyl LPs all these years after the digital revolution, so IMO you will certainly be able to buy DVDs and DVD players for quite some.

The turntable comparison is frequently invoked as a "liferaft" for those resistant to newer technologies, but it really stands alone as an anomaly: the phenomenon won't apply to video. For one, VHS was just as popular as vinyl, but its been stone cold dead for years and it ain't coming back. Consumers have been much more adaptable to quick changes in video delivery than they were for music. The overnight death of VCRs and DVD recorders when integrated cable/satellite PVRs came on the scene seven years ago should be proof enough. DVD playback will remain embedded in computer drives and BD players for as long as BD survives, but when BD goes down it will surely take DVD with it. Anyone who hasn't ripped their disc collection to HDD by then will be scrambling to buy the last disc drives. A Thorens or Lenco turntable made in 1958 still works and is relatively easy to maintain indefinitely, but optical drives and players/recorders max out at 5-6 years before dying. There are dozens of superb-quality CD players that collect dust because they used a Sony-sourced laser pickup that hasn't been made since 1990 (and good luck finding a still-functional Toshiba XS, JVC, Sony, Panasonic or Pioneer DVD/HDD recorder from 2004).

Turntables and vinyl have several technical and cultural factors that keep a significant minority interested long after they were obsoleted. As the very first consumer media to go digital, vinyl bore the brunt of first-wave analog backlash. Early CD sounded pretty harsh and ugly on a surprising number of decent stereo rigs, you couldn't really get an affordable smooth-sounding CD player that was compatible with a wide range of amps and speakers until the early 1990s. Another issue was the large number of people who'd invested major $$$ in a turntable/cartridge/preamp and were not about to admit a CD player at a fraction of the cost could equal it. Then you had the large cottage industry of turntable mfrs in Europe who had a vested interest in the "vinyl is more natural" movement, and an audio press that would be rendered largely irrelevant if it didn't play along with that tune (which was and remains occasionally true depending on the gear used and the ears listening). All of this lent a continuing mystique to vinyl and turntables that persists to this day (it doesn't hurt that setting up a turntable can be a black art: that adds even more cachet).

Right around the time hard-core audiophiles began to finally migrate away from vinyl and into premium CD hardware, the dreaded "hipsters" decided turntables were funky and cool and all of them had to have one in their dorm rooms or apartments. This "cool factor" is now the primary support propping up the vinyl renaissance: once the hipsters move on to the next retro fad, turntables will drop back to being an extremely small minority hobby. An essential part of the hipster fad was the low price of entry: ten years ago, you could pick up a once-$600 turntable for $30 at garage sales and on eBay. Now that the "hip factor" has broadened to the larger population of older well-heeled wannabes, those same old turntables are fetching close to their 1976 retail prices (the really pretty ones with wood and brass fittings go for much more as fetish objects for interior decorators). And if you want a brand-new turntable (that isn't a Crosley toy sold at Urban Outfitters), prices start at nearly $400 and skyrocket quickly upward.

So while vinyl is very much still alive, its becoming an ever-more niche hobby for those with money to burn. Used or new, the cost of a turntable/pramp thats worth anything sound-wise is much more than the average person would be willing to spend. Sure, you can get a cheaper new "DJ" turntable from Audio-Technica or Stanton, but these are not very good-sounding and prices have nearly doubled as they seize the vacancy opened by Technic's recent discontinuation of the legendary SL1200MkII (these sold new at $300-400 for the last twenty years, but now fetch $400 beat up used and $1000+ for left over new old stock). Considering how long-lived and profitable the SL1200MkII was for Panasonic, you can take its discontinuation as evidence even DJs are moving into digital. A good turntable is expensive to mfr in small quantities, and good ones can last for decades, so mfrs don't want to compete with the flood of their old models on eBay.

The Walkman gave way to the iPod which gave way to multipurpose cell phones (that are also on the verge of killing dedicated cameras for consumer stills & video). DVD is giving way to BluRay (more by force of mfrs dropping DVD than consumer preference), and BluRay itself will eventually give way to digital delivery. NetFlix has driven all other disc rental options out of business, but NetFlix now wants out of physical media- badly. Once they pull off that transition the only market for physical discs will be collectors buying retail. I can easily see prices for those going up as the drop in demand for rental discs kills the subsidy for cheap prices on Amazon and at Best Buy.

[Maldez]

.....For a few years you couldn't really buy a turntable or a new record on vinyl. The current revival suits nostalgic baby-boomers and collectors of old music, but it will die out in time. Oh and by the way, the large font you have chosen is equivalent to shouting.

Terribly sorry.

[Maldez]

You can still buy turntables and vinyl LPs all these years after the digital revolution, so IMO you will certainly be able to buy DVDs and DVD players for quite some.

The turntable comparison is frequently invoked as a "liferaft" for those resistant to newer technologies, but it really stands alone as an anomaly: the phenomenon won't apply to video. For one, VHS was just as popular as vinyl, but its been stone cold dead for years and it ain't coming back. Consumers have been much more adaptable to quick changes in video delivery than they were for music. The overnight death of VCRs and DVD recorders when integrated cable/satellite PVRs came on the scene seven years ago should be proof enough. DVD playback will remain embedded in computer drives and BD players for as long as BD survives, but when BD goes down it will surely take DVD with it. Anyone who hasn't ripped their disc collection to HDD by then will be scrambling to buy the last disc drives. A Thorens or Lenco turntable made in 1958 still works and is relatively easy to maintain indefinitely, but optical drives and players/recorders max out at 5-6 years before dying. There are dozens of superb-quality CD players that collect dust because they used a Sony-sourced laser pickup that hasn't been made since 1990 (and good luck finding a still-functional Toshiba XS, JVC, Sony, Panasonic or Pioneer DVD/HDD recorder from 2004).

Turntables and vinyl have several technical and cultural factors that keep a significant minority interested long after they were obsoleted. As the very first consumer media to go digital, vinyl bore the brunt of first-wave analog backlash. Early CD sounded pretty harsh and ugly on a surprising number of decent stereo rigs, you couldn't really get an affordable smooth-sounding CD player that was compatible with a wide range of amps and speakers until the early 1990s. Another issue was the large number of people who'd invested major $$$ in a turntable/cartridge/preamp and were not about to admit a CD player at a fraction of the cost could equal it. Then you had the large cottage industry of turntable mfrs in Europe who had a vested interest in the "vinyl is more natural" movement, and an audio press that would be rendered largely irrelevant if it didn't play along with that tune (which was and remains occasionally true depending on the gear used and the ears listening). All of this lent a continuing mystique to vinyl and turntables that persists to this day (it doesn't hurt that setting up a turntable can be a black art: that adds even more cachet).

Right around the time hard-core audiophiles began to finally migrate away from vinyl and into premium CD hardware, the dreaded "hipsters" decided turntables were funky and cool and all of them had to have one in their dorm rooms or apartments. This "cool factor" is now the primary support propping up the vinyl renaissance: once the hipsters move on to the next retro fad, turntables will drop back to being an extremely small minority hobby. An essential part of the hipster fad was the low price of entry: ten years ago, you could pick up a once-$600 turntable for $30 at garage sales and on eBay. Now that the "hip factor" has broadened to the larger population of older well-heeled wannabes, those same old turntables are fetching close to their 1976 retail prices (the really pretty ones with wood and brass fittings go for much more as fetish objects for interior decorators). And if you want a brand-new turntable (that isn't a Crosley toy sold at Urban Outfitters), prices start at nearly $400 and skyrocket quickly upward.

So while vinyl is very much still alive, its becoming an ever-more niche hobby for those with money to burn. Used or new, the cost of a turntable/pramp thats worth anything sound-wise is much more than the average person would be willing to spend. Sure, you can get a cheaper new "DJ" turntable from Audio-Technica or Stanton, but these are not very good-sounding and prices have nearly doubled as they seize the vacancy opened by Technic's recent discontinuation of the legendary SL1200MkII (these sold new at $300-400 for the last twenty years, but now fetch $400 beat up used and $1000+ for left over new old stock). Considering how long-lived and profitable the SL1200MkII was for Panasonic, you can take its discontinuation as evidence even DJs are moving into digital. A good turntable is expensive to mfr in small quantities, and good ones can last for decades, so mfrs don't want to compete with the flood of their old models on eBay.

The Walkman gave way to the iPod which gave way to multipurpose cell phones (that are also on the verge of killing dedicated cameras for consumer stills & video). DVD is giving way to BluRay (more by force of mfrs dropping DVD than consumer preference), and BluRay itself will eventually give way to digital delivery. NetFlix has driven all other disc rental options out of business, but NetFlix now wants out of physical media- badly. Once they pull off that transition the only market for physical discs will be collectors buying retail. I can easily see prices for those going up as the drop in demand for rental discs kills the subsidy for cheap prices on Amazon and at Best Buy.

Orsetto, once again you've authored a post that would be better suited to an audio/video newspaper section or magazine where a far larger audience could take advantage of your wealth of information. Seriously, your posts are an education and a pleasure to read, but I doubt more than a dozen people will read your latest contribution, and that's kind of a shame.

Be that as it may, let's get right to the meat of the matter. The gang here is stating as a matter-of-fact that Blu-ray will replace DVD. I just googled Blu-ray recorder and see where there are indeed units available right now for about a thou' that will record in HD. And a BD machine will play DVDs, correct? If that's the case, why did I just buy the Panasonic EH59? Won't a BD recorder be able to record TV programs?

[orsetto]

I'm glad you enjoy some of my long-winded posts, Maldez, even when they sort of spiral out of my control sometimes. But since they are so long, you may want to avoid quoting them in their entirety when you reply, to keep the thread easy to navigate?

The gang here is stating as a matter-of-fact that Blu-ray will replace DVD.

They were referring to BD players replacing DVD players, because BD decks can also play DVD (albeit not as well as older dedicated DVD players). BD prices seem stuck at approx $90 which is keeping the $50 budget DVD player alive in places like WalMart, but within a year or two we'll see $59 BD spell doom for DVD-only players, except maybe the portables for kids.

I just googled Blu-ray recorder and see where there are indeed units available right now for about a thou' that will record in HD. And a BD machine will play DVDs, correct? If that's the case, why did I just buy the Panasonic EH59? Won't a BD recorder be able to record TV programs?

BD recorders were never sold with North American specs, the few with tuners that could record in HiDef were sold exclusively in Japan, Europe, Australia and NZ. Importing one of those would not make sense, as the tuners won't work here and the units cannot otherwise record in HiDef via line input (except from compatible video cameras). So your investment in the EH59 was quite sensible and really the only choice you could make other than the Magnavox (or buying someone's old recorder on eBay).

The only BD recorders sold officially for North American use are the JVCs, the cheapest being the SR-HD1250US selling for $1095 at B&H Photo. Here again you have no tuner, and the units can only record HiDef from select compatible video cameras. Recording TV needs to be done via line inputs from a cable, satellite or ATSC tuner box, and the line inputs are standard-def DVD-grade only. BD recorders at this point are niche products only useful to wedding videographers and the like, they have no practical application for consumers (who can easily make AVCHD HiDef BluRay-compatible DVDs from their video cameras using a PC at half the price of a BD recorder).

BD/HDD recorders had a brief window of popularity in the foreign market, but that window closed when the global economy tanked in 2009. Today, even the Germans are leery of spending $1400 on a recorder. Demand for DVD/HDD and BD/HDD recorders sank like a stone in Europe over the last couple years, to where Panasonic is the sole remaining brand bothering to sell them. Europe has begun migrating to the discless PVR, much like USA/Canada, except they have more options than we do since no cable interference is involved and satellite tuners are standardized. Australia and NZ are expected to follow suit. The Japanese home market itself has dropped from dozens of BluRay recorders to almost none over the past year: not even Sony!

I'm afraid the consumer practice of recording TV to discs of any kind, aside from PC burners, is well on its way out worldwide.

[usually_quiet]

Be that as it may, let's get right to the meat of the matter. The gang here is stating as a matter-of-fact that Blu-ray will replace DVD. I just googled Blu-ray recorder and see where there are indeed units available right now for about a thou' that will record in HD. And a BD machine will play DVDs, correct? If that's the case, why did I just buy the Panasonic EH59? Won't a BD recorder be able to record TV programs?

Recording to DVD and Blu-Ray are both virtually dead world-wide. Only Panasonic still makes any Blu-Ray recorders for time-shifting TV, but they are not sold here.

I think this has been covered before in the course of this thread, but since DVD recorders have been such a huge failure here, and Blu-Ray recorders cost in the neighborhood of $1000, it is extremely unlikely that any company will ever take a chance on making one for recording TV in N. America. Nor is it likely that any gray market models will find there way here. From what I remember, Panasonic Blu-ray recorders made for Britain and Australia are incompatible with N. American video and broadcast standards.

There are some Blu-Ray recorders sold in N. America for professional videography, but they are virtually useless for time-shifting TV, especially high-definition programming. They have no tuner, no analog component video inputs, and no programmable timers.

[Maldez]

...The only BD recorders sold officially for North American use are the JVCs, the cheapest being the SR-HD1250US selling for $1095 at B&H Photo. Here again you have no tuner, and the units can only record HiDef from select compatible video cameras. Recording TV needs to be done via line inputs from a cable, satellite or ATSC tuner box, and the line inputs are standard-def DVD-grade only. BD recorders at this point are niche products only useful to wedding videographers and the like, they have no practical application for consumers (who can easily make AVCHD HiDef BluRay-compatible DVDs from their video cameras using a PC at half the price of a BD recorder).

OK, I'm still a little hazy on whether or not you can record regular TV programs with a BD recorder. I get conflicting reports. Forget about recording in HD, if I just want to use a BD recorder to record TV programs in SD will it do it or not?

[Maldez]

....
There are some Blu-Ray recorders sold in N. America for professional videography, but they are virtually useless for time-shifting TV, especially high-definition programming. They have no tuner, no analog component video inputs, and no programmable timers.

Can you explain what "time-shifting" TV is? I think you're talking about recording something at a time other than when it's being broacast to the rest of the world, but not sure. Wouldn't you need a Tivo or some such device to do that?

Thanks

[orsetto]

Yes, a BD recorder can record SD material.

But please keep that fact in the larger perspective we're giving you: BD recorders have no practical use in USA/Canada unless you make a lot of HD videos with a camera *and* that camera is compatible with the input of the recorder *and* you need to have immediate BD discs available to give to family members (or clients if you're a pro).

Otherwise, its a total waste: the BD recorder price will always be in the $1000 range, more than double the cost of an EH59 and triple the cost of a Magnavox. Why pay for a BD feature you can't use? The machines are not even as flexible as a PC for for disc formats: at least with a PC, you can record about 10 hours of top-DVD-quality standard-def video onto a single BD disc, which can considerably cut down on storage space for your SD recordings. But the standalone BD recorders won't do this:you can choose standard def on DVD, or full-out BD recording, but no compromises.

There is no competition in BD recorders: none. The foreign market has only Panasonic, and prices have only dropped to perhaps $899 (US equivalent) for consumer units. We will never see those here in North America, since they are totally locked to Region B (DVD Region 2) and the tuners are for a different digital system. Popularity is waning, and Panasonic cannot respond with more price cuts because their baseline can't be cut anymore, and it wouldn't achieve more volume: the moment has passed, the machines are no longer "hot" with global consumers.

In US/Canada, we have only the "industrial" JVC models, which may as well be Panasonics given JVCs alliance with (and Sony's blessing of) Matsuhita. These JVCs range in price from $1095 to $2175 to $3600, with the recent $200 price cut on the cheapest model and introduction of two upgraded units at double and triple the price hinting the cheap one won't be around much longer. None of these have tuners, and are limited to SD line inputs (the most expensive new model does add special "pro" HD line inputs that no consumer cable or satellite box will ever mate with). If experience with JVC DVD/HDD recorders is any indication, these BD units will be none too reliable- one can only hope they really are Panasonics in disguise.

[usually_quiet]

....
There are some Blu-Ray recorders sold in N. America for professional videography, but they are virtually useless for time-shifting TV, especially high-definition programming. They have no tuner, no analog component video inputs, and no programmable timers.

Can you explain what "time-shifting" TV is? I think you're talking about recording something at a time other than when it's being broacast to the rest of the world, but not sure. Wouldn't you need a Tivo or some such device to do that?

Thanks

"Time-shifting TV" means to record a TV program when it is originally broadcast to watch at a more convenient time. You could have typed "time-shift TV" into a search engine and found the same answer.

The BD recorders for videography that I have seen have stereo audio, composite and S-video inputs for recording standard definition analog video and analog audio to the unit's hard drive in digital form, but they don't provide a way to both start and stop recording at a pre-programmed time and date. I guess if you are willing to be there to manually start recording and manually set a duration (or manually stop recording) every time you want to record something, then you could use one to record SD video from a set-top box. ...but for what they cost I'd want more convenience and the ability to record high-definition video from a set top box.