HD Monitor or HD Tv ?

[edDV]

Ok. I think I understand it now. Thank you for taking the time to explain in detail. And your patience. I do get 'blonde' moments at times

One, hopefully, final question. Is it safe to assume that HD monitors UK-sourced support 50p (I only, as you point out, see that applying to 1080p HD tvs) and what would be the result of using such a mode for general PC work ?

This is the one that catches my eye were I to buy right now.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-S22B300HS-21-5-inch-Widescreen/dp/B0074H1SD0/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

And for a tv:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005FVJ5GO/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_g23_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P...pf_rd_i=468294

We need more European input re: computer monitors running at 50Hz. It is my understanding these are rare.

In the USA, Samsung blocks 50Hz even on their HDTV sets specifically to block "PAL" display*. My Vizio HDTV sets will accept 50Hz and even have analog PAL decoders.


* This is to stop Europeans from buying North American models to avoid the VAT tax.

[usually_quiet]

Ok. I think I understand it now. Thank you for taking the time to explain in detail. And your patience. I do get 'blonde' moments at times

One, hopefully, final question. Is it safe to assume that HD monitors UK-sourced support 50p (I only, as you point out, see that applying to 1080p HD tvs) and what would be the result of using such a mode for general PC work ?

This is the one that catches my eye were I to buy right now.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-S22B300HS-21-5-inch-Widescreen/dp/B0074H1SD0/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

And for a tv:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005FVJ5GO/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_g23_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P...pf_rd_i=468294

A standard LCD HD monitor will typically operate at 60Hz whether it is purchased in the UK or N. America. The exception would be a UK sourced-monitor that has a TV tuner and/or analog video inputs (component, composite, S-Video or SCART) like a TV. Those can operate at 50Hz, under some circumstances, but not all.

To be certain, I downloaded a manual from Samsung's UK website for the T22B300EW TV/monitor. The manual recommends operating it at 60 Hz when connected to a PC, but it can use other refresh rates when used as a TV. http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/201203/20120322180055538/BN46-00196C-Eng.pdf

[DB83]

Hmmn. If they are rare then I must assume that they are expensive and that equates to cost-prohibition.

You will note that there is nothing mentioned in the general spec for that monitor so it means a whole raft of research to find out if any do support this feature. I probably over-simplify the issue by my analysis that a HD monitor is the same as a HD tv WITHOUT the built-in tuner. But if that is the case then the spec for full HD 1080p, which includes both 50p and 60p, would apply for both a monitor and a tv. So I am obliviously missing something.

But Jo UK-public is, I assume watching blu-rays on a HD monitor (with a PC-based player)- that box-seller probably told him that he could even though that is not an optimal setup. Or is it ?

[edDV]

Hmmn. If they are rare then I must assume that they are expensive and that equates to cost-prohibition.

You will note that there is nothing mentioned in the general spec for that monitor so it means a whole raft of research to find out if any do support this feature. I probably over-simplify the issue by my analysis that a HD monitor is the same as a HD tv WITHOUT the built-in tuner. But if that is the case then the spec for full HD 1080p, which includes both 50p and 60p, would apply for both a monitor and a tv. So I am obliviously missing something.

But Jo UK-public is, I assume watching blu-rays on a HD monitor (with a PC-based player)- that box-seller probably told him that he could even though that is not an optimal setup. Or is it ?

Optimal would be 50p similar to a Blu-Ray player to HDTV over HDMI. A 60Hz monitor is a compromise.

[jagabo]

Amazon.co.uk shows many 21" to 23" HDTVs with 1080p.

I have been on that site. It was the source of my comment.

On double-checking this morning I did find one - a Samsumg 22".

I believe the rest of them are actually monitors. But please prove me wrong.

I see 31 HDTVs in the 21 to 23 inch range listed. I'm not sure if the link will work:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_85556633_14/280-5266342-7007141?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A560864%2Cp_n_feature_two_br owse-bin%3A161190031&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=lef t-1&pf_rd_r=06F5ARHQ8KY6C2QQH81X&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p =292899547&pf_rd_i=560858#/ref=sr_nr_p_n_size_browse-bin_1?rh=n%3A560798%2Cn%3A!560800%2Cn%3A560858%2Cn %3A560864%2Cp_n_feature_two_browse-bin%3A161190031%2Cp_n_size_browse-bin%3A1653367031&bbn=560864&ie=UTF8&qid=1338214831 &rnid=161398031

From amazon.co.uk select Electronics -> TV -> Full HD 1080p -> 21 - 23". Most were 22" HDTVs. I didn't look in detail to see which may not be currently available. That's your job.

[DB83]

I took a quick look at that manual (thanks for that) but Samsung do not help the cause when the title on the manual says "Monitor" whereas the contents are for a tv. I will take your word that this model can use other refresh rates when used as a tv. I could only see references to 60Hz.

Methinks its time to put this hound-dog to sleep.

[DB83]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_85556633_14/280-5266342-7007141?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A560864%2Cp_n_feature_two_br owse-bin%3A161190031&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=lef t-1&pf_rd_r=06F5ARHQ8KY6C2QQH81X&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p =292899547&pf_rd_i=560858#/ref=sr_nr_p_n_size_browse-bin_1?rh=n%3A560798%2Cn%3A!560800%2Cn%3A560858%2Cn %3A560864%2Cp_n_feature_two_browse-bin%3A161190031%2Cp_n_size_browse-bin%3A1653367031&bbn=560864&ie=UTF8&qid=1338214831 &rnid=161398031[/URL]

From amazon.co.uk select Electronics -> TV -> Full HD 1080p -> 21 - 23". Most were 22" HDTVs. I didn't look in detail to see which may not be currently available. That's your job.

And here is the weather forecast. The UK is experiencing an 'Indian Summer'. It is so feck'n hot that brains are melting and eyes can not see further than their sockets.

Thank you for that. Shame there is not a Sony.

[usually_quiet]

Hmmn. If they are rare then I must assume that they are expensive and that equates to cost-prohibition.

You will note that there is nothing mentioned in the general spec for that monitor so it means a whole raft of research to find out if any do support this feature. I probably over-simplify the issue by my analysis that a HD monitor is the same as a HD tv WITHOUT the built-in tuner. But if that is the case then the spec for full HD 1080p, which includes both 50p and 60p, would apply for both a monitor and a tv. So I am obliviously missing something.

But Jo UK-public is, I assume watching blu-rays on a HD monitor (with a PC-based player)- that box-seller probably told him that he could even though that is not an optimal setup. Or is it ?

Standard consumer LCD monitors are not equivalent to tunerless TVs. They are designed to operate at 60 Hz, period, even if they have full-HD resolution.

I have seen some rather expensive N. American 3D monitors and professional LCD monitors with component video inputs that the specs say support something other than 60Hz operation, but a 22-inch TV would cost less than one of these monitors.

The player software to use would be the next question.

[jagabo]

Shame there is not a Sony.

Sony once made great monitors and TVs. Now they are just another electronics manufacturer. And to top it off they are now the most anti-consumer of the electronics giants. They worry much more about protecting their content than about making useful products.

[DB83]

Current Player Software = PowerDVD 10 Blu-ray + 3D. No, I do not want a 3D tv

One thing still troubles me tho. The graphics card outputs at 60Hz. There is no 50Hz setting so even if you have two outputs from that card they will be both at 60Hz. So even with a tv over a monitor the input from the PC must be 60Hz. So I would only get 50Hz from a stand-alone player in to the tv ? Since I do not wish to go down that route at present, surely there is no advantage in a tv over a monitor. I do not need the UK-freeview that is already built in both my dvd-recorder and the Sony Tv.

If I repeat myself, my apologies. It is still 'Indian' country around here.

[jagabo]

If you have a 50 Hz capable display you'll be able to set the graphics card to 50 Hz.

[DB83]

If you have a 50 Hz capable display you'll be able to set the graphics card to 50 Hz.

Ok.

So has anyone actually done this:

1. Connect hdmi from PC to a HD tv at 60Hz (PC Mode)
2. Connect the same PC over hdmi to the same tv at 50Hz

I would have thought that the PC software would operate at the 60Hz mode unless there is a setting I have not found or I should consider other software.

[edDV]

If you have a 50 Hz capable display you'll be able to set the graphics card to 50 Hz.

Ok.

So has anyone actually done this:

1. Connect hdmi from PC to a HD tv at 60Hz (PC Mode)
2. Connect the same PC over hdmi to the same tv at 50Hz

I would have thought that the PC software would operate at the 60Hz mode unless there is a setting I have not found or I should consider other software.

Yes, I can demo the procedure for NVidia cards. The primary monitor is connected 60Hz (VGA or DVI-D in this case). The second out (HDMI) is set to extended mode (ATI calls this Theater mode). In this case I'm using a 1366x768 Vizio but it will accept 1920x1080p as an input.

If 50 Hz doesn't immediately show as a monitor 2 option, set it up in the "Customize" menu as follows.



Then when you return to the "Change Resolution" menu, 50 Hz is an option.


Note that Monitor 1 and Monitor 2 are the same monitor in this case.

In order to play a 50Hz file at 50Hz, one must drag the player window to the 50Hz monitor or set the player to output to monitor 2.

With my PAL DVD test file, slow pans showed stepped motion on the 60Hz connection but were smooth on the 50Hz connection.

[usually_quiet]

For what it is worth, ATI's Theater mode is no longer supported under Windows 7. Current ATI drivers on a Window 7 system use extended desktop. I don't know what their current XP and Vista drivers call it.

[DB83]

edDV,

Thanks for that. When one thinks of dual-display, I think in terms of two physical display units. But to have both these displays in one physical unit is a cool trick.

Will be taking all this on board when I come to acquiring the display.

Once again, many thanks for your time and patience.

[edDV]

edDV,

Thanks for that. When one thinks of dual-display, I think in terms of two physical display units. But to have both these displays in one physical unit is a cool trick.

Remember you have to switch inputs at the HDTV from PC mode (DVI-D or VGA) to HDMI (extended 50 Hz display). This can be tedious. Better to connect your large HDTV as the second monitor for watching movies.

[usually_quiet]

Remember you have to switch inputs at the HDTV from PC mode (DVI-D or VGA) to HDMI (extended 50 Hz display). This can be tedious. Better to connect your large HDTV as the second monitor for watching movies.

I have been thinking that all along, since both are conveniently located in the same room. Monitors are less costly than TVs and possibly work better when used for ordinary PC tasks, since they are optimized for viewing text.

[yoda313]

Monitors are less costly than TVs and possibly work better when used for ordinary PC tasks, since they are optimized for viewing text.

I'll chime in on this bit here. It is not my daily websurfing/word processing computer but I have a dual core pc hooked up to my 32" westinghouse hdtv.

When I use it for pc tasks like video encoding and text based surfing (ie not video watching) it is quite good.

I am currently outputting at 1366x768 over hdmi (that is my tvs native resolution). The text is clear and legible. I use a ati hd all in wonder pci-e card - I think its the 500mb ram one I don't remember for sure though but that isn't fully relevant to this.

Please note when I am not watching videos on it and doing pc tasks like video encoding and stuff that requires a mouse and keyboard I sit about two to three feet away. My eyesight is fair and I'm in my 30's (low 30s). So your mileage my vary.

But the tv does well for pc tasks. Granted I am not writing novels or any long duration stuff but for an hour here and an hour there it is more than adequate.

-------------------------

I will still say that if this was going to be a primary display that using a real tv for cable/sat/fios and gaming and bluray/dvds makes more sense. A dedicated full montior sans tuner makes the most sense for a desk environment.

If this is for htpc purposes I would definitely go for a full hdtv with tuner so that you can have the most uses for it. You can use it when the pc is off.

That is how I use mine. Its not on all that often. But I can use it very well via hdmi on my hdtv.

Just some fyi there.

[olyteddy]

Another thing to consider in using a TV as a monitor is Chroma Subsampling. Ideally it will be 4:4:4. For more info see this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1381724 I'm using a 26" Vizio that does use 4:4:4 subsampling.

[jagabo]

Another thing to consider in using a TV as a monitor is Chroma Subsampling. Ideally it will be 4:4:4. For more info see this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1381724 I'm using a 26" Vizio that does use 4:4:4 subsampling.

DVI and HDMI support RGB where chroma subsampling isn't an issue. All you have to do is set the computer to output RGB instead of YCbCr. And make sure the TV supports 1080p as input. 1080i is almost always YCbCr.

[hello_hello]

I don't know much about LCD computer monitors as I'm still using a CRT, but don't monitors use a different gamma to TVs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction#Windows.2C_Mac.2C_sRGB_and_TV.2Fvideo_standard_gammas

My PC is hooked up to both a CRT monitor and a plasma TV, and the plasma's picture is much brighter when playing video, I assume due to the different gamma. The monitor has a "video" mode which makes it brighter but it doesn't look natural.

[jagabo]

In my experience, HDTVs and LCD computer monitors both shoot for 2.2 gamma. The biggest problem with TVs is that the default settings use too much brightness and contrast. Because that's what sells in the showroom.

[DB83]

Looking at some tv's, if I was to chose that option, I came across these specs:

Television picture quality:

• Full HD1080p display resolution.
• Integrated Freeview digital tuner.
• 22in widescreen TV.
• Resolution 1280 x 800 pixels.
• Refresh rate 50Hz.

Am I missing something here ? Surely Full HD1080p would give you 1980 x 1080 pixels.

[usually_quiet]

Looking at some tv's, if I was to chose that option, I came across these specs:

Television picture quality:

• Full HD1080p display resolution.
• Integrated Freeview digital tuner.
• 22in widescreen TV.
• Resolution 1280 x 800 pixels.
• Refresh rate 50Hz.

Am I missing something here ? Surely Full HD1080p would give you 1980 x 1080 pixels.

To me, it looks like a 720p TV that is capable of accepting 1080p video input.

[DB83]

Then it's misleading to say the least.

[DB83]

I thought I would bring this topic up to date.

The old LCD finally has been retired. By the end of its long life there were six lines almost resembling a music stave running across the top and a few individual lines lower down.

I eventually decided on a monitor. This one:

http://www.dabs.com/products/aoc-i2353fh-23--ips-led-full-hd-monitor-7WF7.html?refs=50350&src=3

Whilst I am sure there are better ones out there, this has got some good reviews. It arrived today and atleast I can now watch HDCP protected BD's without resorting to software.