How to convert from 60fps to 25fps to get continuous video?

[Bencuri]

My camcorder can only record in 60 and 30fps, I always use the 60 fps setting. I live in Europe, and I would like to make a PAL DVD of my videos.

When I convert the videos of my camcorder to PAL DVD (25fps) format, the video becomes very jerky, there are many small jumps, it is by far not as continuous as in case I convert a 60fps video to 30 fps.

Is there any software that can convert the videos from 60fps to 25 fps in a way to get a continuous video in the end, free from jumps, shaking and frame drops?

[Selur]

Okay, going frame rate X to frame rate Y with X > Y you will in general always loose motion information since you are lowering the frame rate.
So going from 60fps to 25fps you will definitely loose some, if you go for DVD you should go for 25i (= 25fps interlaced = 50 fields per second) this way you will loose far less motion information, compared to the case when you go for 25p (= 25fps progressive = 25 frames per second).

[jagabo]

There are many ways one could convert 60 fps to 25 fps. Many will leave you with very jerky results, others will be less jerky. But 25 fps will always be a little jerky because of the inherently low frame rate. You can see it in any movie if you look at the right shot.

It's best if you provide short before and after samples. That way we can see what your software did and let you know if there are any better solutions that aren't too hard.

[Bencuri]

Okay, I will create some short samples before and after conversion, so you can see the results.

Anyway I only used 2 softwares so far. My camcorder (Sanyo HD1000GX) came with Ulead Movie Factory 4.0. It didn't give good results, the outcome was: jerky picture and jumps in the voice too. There were jumps in voice even when I converted to NTSC. So I abandeoned that program, and went back to DVD Video Soft, that I mostly use for video and audio editing. That software did a much better job, the 60fps mp4 to 30fps NTSC DVD conversion became almost perfect, but there are still some occasional little shakes and jumps. The 60fps to 25fps PAL conversion was not successful with that software either, but at least the audio was good. The image was very jerky, however. But I am not sure if these values in the DVD video soft programe are interlaced or not. It is not mentioned when you select the target format, and you cannot custom set it, because there are only presets.


I will upload samples from these projects, but I didn't save any, so I have to create some new files.

[poisondeathray]

Okay, I will create some short samples before and after conversion, so you can see the results.

Anyway I only used 2 softwares so far. My camcorder (Sanyo HD1000GX) came with Ulead Movie Factory 4.0. It didn't give good results, the outcome was: jerky picture and jumps in the voice too. There were jumps in voice even when I converted to NTSC. So I abandeoned that program, and went back to DVD Video Soft, that I mostly use for video and audio editing. That software did a much better job, the 60fps mp4 to 30fps NTSC DVD conversion became almost perfect, but there are still some occasional little shakes and jumps. The 60fps to 25fps PAL conversion was not successful with that software either, but at least the audio was good. The image was very jerky, however. I will upload samples from these projects, but I didn't save any, so I have to create some new files.

60 to 30 (actually 59.94 to 29.97) will be fairly smooth in any program because they are evenly divisible.

60 to 25 isn't evenly divisible - do you see the issue here ? That's why there will be shakes and jumps . The frames won't be evenly spaced representing moments in time

The "smoothest" way is usually frame interploation using optical flow or using motion vectors to generate new "in between" frames so the frames are now evenly spaced ; interpolated 60p to 300p then evenly dividing it 12 to get 25 (lowest common multiple is 300, or 30p to 150p and dividing by 5 to get 25). But interpolation often leaves edge morphing artifacts, it depends on the content . Free ways to do this are avisynth, MSU FRC. Retail methods include after effects, twixtor

The other ways are either combinations of dropping and inserting blending (blurry) frames, or duplicates - these last 2 methods give jerky or jerky and blurry results. This is probably what your current software is doing

You're better off getting a proper 50Hz (PAL) region camera, there is no "Perfect" method for this type of conversion. There are side effects and worse side effects, but occasionally you might get "ok" results from using interpolation methods

[Bencuri]

Okay, I will create some short samples before and after conversion, so you can see the results.

Anyway I only used 2 softwares so far. My camcorder (Sanyo HD1000GX) came with Ulead Movie Factory 4.0. It didn't give good results, the outcome was: jerky picture and jumps in the voice too. There were jumps in voice even when I converted to NTSC. So I abandeoned that program, and went back to DVD Video Soft, that I mostly use for video and audio editing. That software did a much better job, the 60fps mp4 to 30fps NTSC DVD conversion became almost perfect, but there are still some occasional little shakes and jumps. The 60fps to 25fps PAL conversion was not successful with that software either, but at least the audio was good. The image was very jerky, however. I will upload samples from these projects, but I didn't save any, so I have to create some new files.

60 to 30 (actually 59.94 to 29.97) will be fairly smooth in any program because they are evenly divisible.

60 to 25 isn't evenly divisible - do you see the issue here ? That's why there will be shakes and jumps . The frames won't be evenly spaced representing moments in time

The "smoothest" way is usually frame interploation using optical flow or motion vectors - interpolated 60p to 300p then evenly dividing it 12 to get 25 (lowest common multiple is 300, or 30p to 150p and dividing by 5 to get 25). But interpolation often leaves edge morphing artifacts, it depends on the content

The other ways are either combinations of dropping and inserting blending (blurry) frames

Which software is capable of doing this interpolation? I check the ones installed on my computer, the highest rate I can set is 60fps at the conversion preferences.

[poisondeathray]

Which software is capable of doing this interpolation? I check the ones installed on my computer, the highest rate I can set is 60fps at the conversion preferences.

I just edited my post above to include some programs, check the changes. I would start with avisynth, since it's free. Unfortunately there is a bit of a learning curve, and there is no real solid GUI for it (maybe avspmod)

Most normal consumer editing software won't be able to use optical flow/ interpolation methods , only blend and duplicate/decimate frames methods.

[Cornucopia]

poisondeathray already mentioned a number of apps that you could use...

One thing not mentioned is for you to SLOW DOWN your video, adjusting the timebase so that if you start with 30p and you have 1 second of video (30 frames), you still end up with 30 frames but now they last 1.2 seconds (25 frames= 1 second ,plus 5 more frames). This may be an effect that you can live with, or NOT...

(Note: similar programs can do this also: AE, AVISynth, Vdub, etc)

Scott

[Bencuri]

poisondeathray already mentioned a number of apps that you could use...

One thing not mentioned is for you to SLOW DOWN your video, adjusting the timebase so that if you start with 30p and you have 1 second of video (30 frames), you still end up with 30 frames but now they last 1.2 seconds (25 frames= 1 second ,plus 5 more frames). This may be an effect that you can live with, or NOT...

(Note: similar programs can do this also: AE, AVISynth, Vdub, etc)

Scott

I will test this method, too. But after you slowed down the video, do you need to convert it, or after slowing down, the softwares will automatically detect as if the video was 25 fps?

[poisondeathray]

The problem with the slowdown method is 30->25 is a 20% difference. The audio change is definitely noticable. So if there is speech, etc.... it will sound very bad.

Normal PAL=>NTSC (25p=>23.976p film rate ) is only ~4.1% difference, so the change isn't as noticable

If you've converted the FPS correctly , the other program will see the new FPS

[jagabo]

Are your videos jerkier than these:
d25.mkv = 60p to 25p via simple decimation (what most programs would do)
i25.mkv = 60p to 25p with motion interpolation

[Bencuri]

My converted videos are jerkier than both.

[poisondeathray]

Since you are going to DVD I would go to 50i as selur suggested above ("25i" and "50i" are the same thing, just different naming conventions, they both mean 25 frames per second, 50 fields per second interlaced) . The "not evenly divisible" issues still apply, but you have more motion samples per second for smoother experience

[Cornucopia]

The problem with the slowdown method is 30->25 is a 20% difference. The audio change is definitely noticable. So if there is speech, etc.... it will sound very bad.

Normal PAL=>NTSC (25p=>23.976p film rate ) is only ~4.1% difference, so the change isn't as noticable

If you've converted the FPS correctly , the other program will see the new FPS

Yeah, that's why I said "if you can live with it". Depends on what he's shooting. And, not counting flicker sensitivity, I find that most people tend to be much more forgiving of a slowdown than of a speedup. They seem to like the "gentle fluidity" of it, like it's romantic.

It's NOT what I'd suggest most times, but I figured it ought to be mentioned as an option.

The 25->23.976 wouldn't work here either, since the source is 30p/60p. However, another (weird) option would be to do a 29.97->23.976 (using "faux" ITVC) ->25 (with the slight speedup). It still might be jerky due to the decimation, but it might not be too objectionable. YMMV.

Scott

edit: Of course, the best thing WOULD be to get a PAL-type camera. I'm surprised that's (60p/30p) what is being sold there...

[jagabo]

My converted videos are jerkier than both.

Then the software is probably doing a poor job. We'd have to see a sample of the converted video.

[Bencuri]

I will post it tomorrow. I have deleted everything, but will redo some conversions to show the problem.

[Bencuri]

My converted videos are jerkier than both.

Then the software is probably doing a poor job. We'd have to see a sample of the converted video.

So here is the sample:

https://www.wetransfer.com/dl/bWT1q7an/5e32491524d41d380268bbaedd5b3986ce0f1024a23bafa...0f9e53a3429224

It is the original video file recorded by the camcorder, plus the DVD files. They were created by DVD Video Soft Video to DVD converter. It is PAL 25 fps conversion, 6 mbit. I didn't include the NTSC conversion, because that is more or less acceptable, however still not as good as the conversions that you linked above.

[Cornucopia]

Dude! That's 629MB! We don't need that much (and don't want to DL that much).

Scott

[Bencuri]

Dude! That's 629MB! We don't need that much (and don't want to DL that much).

Scott

This is a fast transfer service, you won't need to wait that much. On my computer it downloads in 2 minutes. On the other hand, I didn't want to cut a portion of the file, because I am not sure about what is the output format in case of an editing. I wanted to keep the untouched file. But if you can recommend a software for me that can cut the file without changing the original format, I can upload a shorter sample.

[jagabo]

The source is 29.97 fps interlaced. It would be smoother encoded as 25i rather than 25p. Otherwise, I thought it looked about right for 60 fps converted to 25 fps. It was blend deinterlaced rather than using some more advanced deinterlace method.

Attached is the first minute encoded 25i with simple decimation, and with motion interpolation.

[Bencuri]

29 fps interlaced? Do you mean the mp4 file? I don't understand how that's possible. I have just donwloaded the sample from the link I wrote, and checked the mp4 with Mediainfo, for me it writes 59.xx fps. Avidemux also reports that. Are you use you checked the correct file?

Anyway, the interpolated m2v file is very good, that is much better than the conversion I have done. So how did you do that. You interpolated to 300, and converted down to 25 fps, as you described earlier in the thread?

And which software allows you to select 'i' or 'p' when you set the fps? All the softwares I tried only allowed to choose the number value, but not the type.

[jagabo]

29 fps interlaced? Do you mean the mp4 file? I don't understand how that's possible. I have just donwloaded the sample from the link I wrote, and checked the mp4 with Mediainfo, for me it writes 59.xx fps. Avidemux also reports that. Are you use you checked the correct file?

Yes, that's what the MP4 header says. But the video is 29.97 fps interlaced.

Anyway, the interpolated m2v file is very good, that is much better than the conversion I have done. So how did you do that. You interpolated to 300, and converted down to 25 fps, as you described earlier in the thread?

No, I went from 60 fields per second to 60 frames per second with Yadif, resized the frame to 720x576, used motion interpolation to get to 50 frames per second, then pulled down 50 fields per second to make the DVD compatible MPEG 2 file (encoded with HcGUI).

#requires MVTools
function SmoothFPS2(clip source, int num, int den) { 
super = MSuper(source, pel=2, hpad=0, vpad=0, rfilter=4)
backward_1 = MAnalyse(super, chroma=false, isb=true, blksize=16, searchparam=3, plevel=0, search=3, badrange=(-24))
forward_1 = MAnalyse(super, chroma=false, isb=false, blksize=16, searchparam=3, plevel=0, search=3, badrange=(-24))
backward_2 = MRecalculate(super, chroma=false, backward_1, blksize=8, searchparam=1, search=3)
forward_2 = MRecalculate(super, chroma=false, forward_1, blksize=8, searchparam=1, search=3)
backward_3 = MRecalculate(super, chroma=false, backward_2, blksize=4, searchparam=0, search=3)
forward_3 = MRecalculate(super, chroma=false, forward_2, blksize=4, searchparam=0, search=3)
MBlockFps(source, super, backward_3, forward_3, num, den, mode=0)
} 

DirectShowSource("1z.MP4", seek=false) 
AssumeTFF()
AssumeFPS(30000,1001)
Yadif(mode=1, order=1)
BilinearResize(720,576)
SmoothFPS2(50,1)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()

Motion interpolation sometimes results in terrible artifacts. It wasn't too bad with this video though.

[Bencuri]

I copied the mp4 right from the SDHC card, it is what the camcorder records. It means that the camcorder doesn't even record in 60fps only in 30?

[jagabo]

I don't know about everything else the camera records. But that particular file is 30i. I have a few sample videos from a Xacti FH1 that are true 1920x1080p60.

[Bencuri]

This is interesting, because the camcorder can't record in 30i accoarding to the manual. It can record in 1080i, all the other resolutions are p. If I record another short video, could you check whether that is 30i as well?

[Bencuri]

I have just come to remember that I have attached a file in the topic about the video blurriness of my camcorder on comuter, that file is also original from the SCDH. The link was: http://www.zshare.ma/a4zndv5bmpsv

Is this also only 30i in reality? To me this also appears 60i in Mediainfo.

[Cornucopia]

That's because 30i IS 60i!

30i = 30 frames per second, interlaced as 60 fields per second.
30p = 30 frames per second, progressive/whole frames
60i = 30 frames per second, interlaced as 60 fields per second.
60p = 60 frames per second, progressive/whole frames

It's just one of those weird, bad habits where non-professionals (marketers in particular) got stuck using 2 different things to mean the same thing.

BTW, there is no such thing as true 60i where there are 60 frames per second, interleaved as 120 fields per second. If a system can do 60p already (which would be the same bandwidth), it looks better to most people anyway, so there would be no need to resort to an interlaced signal. Interlacing is a throwback to a time when engineers had to fudge the signal to squeeze a higher quality signal into a low bandwidth transmission/storage bottleneck. It's not really necessary anymore and is only with us because of legacy, historical reasons (which means it will still be with us for a while to come - these things take time to filter out).

Scott

[jagabo]

That's because 30i IS 60i!

But MediaInfo reports the file is 60p. Sanyo is a little vague saying it supports 1920x1080 60 fps. As far as I can tell, it's really 30i.

[Bencuri]

Well one thing is sure, in the menu of the camcorder the best option is: 1080 60 fields per second, all the other values are 720 and less, they are all in p (30 and 60).

I usually record in 1080i, because the image on hdtv is beautyful, I like that it has cool colors and has fine details. After this struggle I will try the 720p, but all the videos I have so far are in 1080i.

So let us summarize all the info you gave me now, so that I can effectively convert my files.

You gave me this code. As I understand, I should save this code as a script file, install Avisynth and HcGUI, and I can use the script file then, right? But what is the correct order of things? I am not a video software expert, so this whole thing is a bit complicated to me. I have to install Virtual Dub, Avisynth, HcGUI, run Virtual Dub and the script file? What happens after then? Vurtual Dub loads the video with the filters described in the script file, and I have to save the video, or what happens then? I checked the Avisynth manual, but this process seems complicated for me.

[poisondeathray]

I usually record in 1080i, because the image on hdtv is beautyful, I like that it has cool colors and has fine details. After this struggle I will try the 720p, but all the videos I have so far are in 1080i.

How does it play though? Jerky? or Smooth? and how are you watching it? Camera connected directly to HDTV or though computer?

Most PAL spec DVD players will play NTSC material, but I'm unclear as to how the 59.94i signal gets displayed on a 50Hz panel

If 1080i59.94 plays smoothly on your HDTV, you could try making a 59.94i NTSC DVD - it might be using the same cadence conversion