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  1. Member
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    Hello guys.... Now i have got my new vcr with TBC ))

    Ive sat an jugde arround with the setting, contract brightness saturation hue and sharpness on the card, and have capture the following small clips from various parts of the video.

    Have i got the settings right ?

    And can you see the improvement from the TBC

    Thx in advance for all your help, hopefully ive learn enorgh to get the settings right
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    The VCR im using now it Panasonic HV-HS930 with 3D DNR and TBC activated...
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    Ohh and now im running a cable with SCAR in one end (goes in vcr) and composite in the other end (goes in wintv card) but this vcr also has composite, so will it improve anything if i use a composite cabel fra composite on vcr to composite on wintv card? Or will it give no change?
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    Could not play the files with any software of mine (especially with VLC that can usually play almost everything).
    One thing to do when you digitalize is to make high compliance files...

    For the use of the TBC and DNR of your VCR or not your eye will be the best judge. (DNR may also be performed by software , and some digitalizing devices may be good enough for VHS not to need TBC)
    You may also try the tunings of your digitalizing software if there are some.

    Using SCART connexion or RCA connexion for composite video will not change anything.
    Since your VCR is S-VHS ,using Y/C connexion should be better than composite if your digitalizing device supports it.
    Last edited by misermidas; 15th Apr 2012 at 15:02.
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    The file is avi with lagarith codecs... They run fine here
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    Y/c connection? Dont know what that is? I have a wintv pvr-500 card
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    y/c = s-video (separated video).
    SCART = RGB/component
    composite = y+c composited into a single signal, with lower quality than y/c

    Technically, SCART is superior to s-video, but it really depends on the internal processing.

    s-video has nothing to do with S-VHS.
    Image data is stored on both VHS and S-VHS as y/c (separated).
    That's why s-video looks better than composite. And inversely, why it does not on Laserdisc.
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  8. Member DB83's Avatar
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    You really should not open a new topic here. This post really belongs as a continuation of your origianl? topic with the ts files for an immediate comparison.

    Now I have only downloaded file 1 but I see problems. The lady dancing has now got a pattern on her dress which I do not see in your earlier capture. I guess this has been caused by the VCR. I may be wrong here but that could be due to the 3D noise reduction over composite. I thought 3D was reserved for s-video.

    But, again, I must ask why you are persisting with capturing as lagarith when you have been told more than once that it will not work properly with your setup.

    Y/C means s-video.
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    I capture in that because i just use virtualvcr to make those clips... Its easyere to cap small clips with that.... I havent capture the whole thing yet. Just woundringen if any had some last minut change to the setting before capturing the whole
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Now I have only downloaded file 1 but I see problems. The lady dancing has now got a pattern on her dress which I do not see in your earlier capture. I guess this has been caused by the VCR. I may be wrong here but that could be due to the 3D noise reduction over composite. I thought 3D was reserved for s-video.
    3d y/c noise reduction is for composite, not for s-video. But it depends on what his specific product means by "3D". Anyway, the pattern you see appears to be dot crawl, which is common with composite connections. I don;t know that the VCR has SCART, but it should have s-video output. Still, the dot crawl can be dealt with in software but it does cut the clarity a bit.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    But, again, I must ask why you are persisting with capturing as lagarith when you have been told more than once that it will not work properly with your setup.
    The captures are YUY2 PAL AVI (which is what they should be). However the frame rate is 29.97 fps (NTSC). In any case, they are far superior to the earlier captures. Not as sharp as one would expect from the player, but that could be the capture adapter's fault. At least the tape itself isn't dancing all over the place and changing color every other frame, which were the two most serious problems earlier.

    Much better, asesinato. One note:

    S-VHS and s-video are not the same thing. "S-VHS" is a tape format. It can be played through any of the outputs the player supports. "s-video" is a type of signal transmission with its associated circuits and cables. s-video is usually cleaner and less noisy than composite. SCART is usually somewhat superior to either composite or s-video, but I'm not sure the player has SCART output. I'll have to look at the user manual I referred to in the previous post. The link for the complete user guide is near the end of that thread .
    Last edited by sanlyn; 15th Apr 2012 at 17:40.
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    Does anyone know if either the capture device or VirtualVCR is running 29.97 fps by default? Downloading the other captures now.
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    Does anyone know if either the capture device or VirtualVCR is running 29.97 fps by default? Downloading the other captures now.
    Well the ts captures were 25 fps. You are right, cap 1 is 29.97 fps so I must assume that is a program default but rather careless to leave it which creates issues of its own.

    If the herring-bone pattern is dot-crawl then I stand back except that I did not notice it in the initial ts caps.

    I simply do not buy any arguement to create samples with the easiest method. Any samples which require opinion should be done with the method that the final edit will be done. Then no additional issues caused by inappropiate use of capture codecs will influence the opinion.
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  13. I believe it's 25fps by default on virtualvcr, not 100% sure though

    edit:

    I have made my little tweaks for the fun it always amaze me how much data you can recover, take a look below (UV components)

    original:
    http://imageupload.org/en/file/217133/original.jpg.html

    my tweaks:
    http://imageupload.org/en/file/217134/enhanced-themaster1.jpg.html

    blurry vs not blurry

    the script:
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/7hv5l1
    Last edited by themaster1; 15th Apr 2012 at 18:59.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Well the ts captures were 25 fps. You are right, cap 1 is 29.97 fps so I must assume that is a program default but rather careless to leave it which creates issues of its own.
    It should be 25fps. Perhaps not set correctly? I'll try the VCR's manual (but I think it was set that way in VirtualVCR). A little later on that....

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    If the herring-bone pattern is dot-crawl then I stand back except that I did not notice it in the initial ts caps.
    My fauult, you're correct. I said dot crawl, I meant to say herring-bone. Maybe FM noise, but could be the due to incorrect frame rate.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    I simply do not buy any arguement to create samples with the easiest method. Any samples which require opinion should be done with the method that the final edit will be done. Then no additional issues caused by inappropiate use of capture codecs will influence the opinion.
    You're the only one who wouldn't buy it. Analysis always begins with raw capture where available.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 15th Apr 2012 at 20:13.
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    Originally Posted by misermidas View Post
    Could not play the files with any software of mine (especially with VLC that can usually play almost everything).
    One thing to do when you digitalize is to make high compliance files...
    Complianttwith what? Its VLC that isn't compliant, it doesn't recognize many common compressors like Lagarith or huffyuv. It doesn't render color very well without serious adjustment, and deinterlaces poorly by default unless you continuously re-set it for a better method. All those faults make VLC a big hassle for much video processing. The avi's posted are standard YUY2 AVI with lossless Lagarith compression. That's a common standard for analog capture to PC.

    Originally Posted by misermidas View Post
    For the use of the TBC and DNR of your VCR or not your eye will be the best judge. (DNR may also be performed by software , and some digitalizing devices may be good enough for VHS not to need TBC)
    You may also try the tunings of your digitalizing software if there are some.
    DNR is best performed by hardware, assuming the hardware is competent and has those features. Some VCR noise reduction creates more problems than it solves. So, yes, you have to eyeball it or check your test captures first.

    Originally Posted by misermidas View Post
    Using SCART connexion or RCA connexion for composite video will not change anything.
    That's not correct.

    Originally Posted by misermidas View Post
    Since your VCR is S-VHS ,using Y/C connexion should be better than composite if your digitalizing device supports it.
    y/c (s-video) connection would be better than composite, whether the machine is S-VHS or not. Again, S-VHS and s-video are not the same thing. The tape being played isn't s-vhs to begin with.
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    Originally Posted by Asesinato View Post
    Ohh and now im running a cable with SCAR in one end (goes in vcr) and composite in the other end (goes in wintv card) but this vcr also has composite, so will it improve anything if i use a composite cabel fra composite on vcr to composite on wintv card? Or will it give no change?
    Are you referring to one of those passive (non-electronic) SCART->composite adapters? I think that's where the noise pattern is coming from. Tip: Passive converters are terrible. If your capture device doesn't have s-video input, you're better off using composte from start to finish and eliminating the SCART converter. Let the VCR's noise reduction and TBC help clean up composite cable faults. Or get an s-video cable if your copy adapter will take it. Stay away from passive converter cables; they do more harm than good.
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    According to the Pansonic user manual, it plays PAL at 25fps. So the 29.97 fps must be coming from the capture device or a VirtualVCR setting. The link to the Panasonic user guide was posted earlier, but I've attached a zip of the manual below.

    Your capture device accepts composite cable (I thought it also has s-video ? ?). If it accepts composite and s-video, use an s-video cable. If it accepts only composite, use a composite cable. Composite will look better than a passive SCART adapter, and the VCR's 3D comb filter will help clean up composite problems.
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  18. SCART can carry composite, s-video, or RGB video. SCART adapters usually do nothing more than route the correct pins on the SCART connector to a composite or s-video cable. Composite via SCART adapter will be the exact same thing as a composite output on the deck. S-video from the adapter will be the same as s-video from the deck.

    The diagonal lines in the caps aren't dot crawl artifacts. There's some source of noise in the system. Or on the tapes. I don't remember how the older caps looked.
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    I would think the herringbone is from the SCART adapter. I realize what SCART does, but the O.P.'s copy device doesn't have SCART input. I think he's using a passive SCART->composite adapter, which isn't the same as SCART to SCART. I dont think so, anyway.

    The VCR's SCART output has a switch that the manual says must be switched on if s-video is desired output via SCART. I don't see where the manual states that there's a comparable composite switch. In any case, if the copy adapter device doesn't have SCART input (I believe it only has composite and s-video), then asesinato must be using some kind of cable adapter for SCART-out to composite-in.

    Since the VCR has an SCART/s-video switch, but not a composite switch, might it be better to have an SCART->s-video adapter, and set that s-video switch on at the VCR? But it seems that just using s-video from start to finish would be better (or composite all the way, if s-video isn't available on the copy device), rather than an SCART adapter. The manual also states that the only type of SCART cable that should be used is a fully-wired (emphasized) 21-pin SCART cable from SCART-to-SCART. I don't think an SCART "adapter"will work properly.
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    To an earlier reply from sanlyn:

    Yes, a raw capture would be best but you forget, the OPs 'RAW' capture is Mpeg2. Who knows what is happening to the video when this transcoding is taking place.

    Now, I realise that Scart is a bit of an unknown for my American friends but it is common-place on European VCRs. As jagabo corrctly states, there is nothing happening to the video if a composite cable comes out of a scart plug. I use them all the time - much more a common connection method for video capture in Europe if you do not have s-video - and, to be honest, have never seen such noise.

    Fully-wired Scart-to-Scart are only used to connect compatable equipment i.e with another scart plug/socket. It is often done this way so that the lemmie does not plug in the lead to a tv the wrong way and wonder why he has no picture. I have never seen a capture device that has scart input.

    I re-checked the original ts video. There is a little hint of the pattern but it sure looks worse now.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Yes, a raw capture would be best but you forget, the OPs 'RAW' capture is Mpeg2. Who knows what is happening to the video when this transcoding is taking place.
    In this thread the source video is tape stored as lossless YV12, while the raw capture is lossless AVI. What transcoding do you refer to? MPEG is a lossy compression format. Who knows what is happening to the video when this MPEG lossy transcoding is taking place?

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Now, I realise that Scart is a bit of an unknown for my American friends but it is common-place on European VCRs. As jagabo corrctly states, there is nothing happening to the video if a composite cable comes out of a scart plug. I use them all the time - much more a common connection method for video capture in Europe if you do not have s-video - and, to be honest, have never seen such noise.
    I know what SCART is, but I'm going by the Panasonic manual. Their SCART output works only with fully-wired 21-pin SCART cables with all 21 pins connected. Have you looked at the manual? It has been posted twice, and the instructions in this regard are clear and are printed more than once. The Panasonic has a composite output. Is it not possible to connect a composite cable from the VCR's composite output directly to the copy adapter's composite input? Or is not possible in Europe to buy a composite cable that has composite-RCA connections on both ends? I recall visiting electronics stores in Britain and France, where I saw a great many composite-only cables being sold. Aren't composite cables sold where you live?

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Fully-wired Scart-to-Scart are only used to connect compatable equipment i.e with another scart plug/socket. It is often done this way so that the lemmie does not plug in the lead to a tv the wrong way and wonder why he has no picture. I have never seen a capture device that has scart input.
    That's correct. Let's go back to the beginning. If the VCR has a composite output, and the copy adapter has a composite input, why is asesinato using an SCART-to-composite cable adapter?
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 16th Apr 2012 at 06:12.
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    Hey Guys!
    Ive now went out an get me a S-video cable (which was not cheap i might add and ive capture a few new clips.

    I realy cant see any differens from before... can you???
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    The s-video capture is a big improvement in detail!. The herringbone is still there, but it's not steady, it's on-and-off. Clearly, the noise looks worse thru the SCART adapter.

    If you have a commercial tape that you bought in a store, play it thru your Panasonic into the s-video input of your capture device. Check to see if the noise is still there. If it exists on all tapes, then the noise is in the Panasonic or in your capture device. If the noise appears only on the wedding tapes, then it's on the tapes; it would have resulted from improper storage of the tape. The noise can be filtered later (in YUV/AVI, not in VirtualDub).

    Your old VCR also has some of this noise, but that VCR sends so little of the original video data thru your capture device, with so many other disturbances, that there's no detail to work with. My guess is that it's on the tape, because some of it was seen in earlier captures. The s-video connection is still better to work with.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 16th Apr 2012 at 06:36.
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    Ive just run a commercial tape and the noise isnt there... So its on the tape

    What about the settings? setting, contract brightness saturation hue and sharpness should i change more there before capturing?
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    i still have the problem that when capturing in virtualdub the audio is completely out of sync... i dont know how to fix that ?
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    Ive now capture 2 small clips with same setup just capture in wintv, and now audio and video is perfectly in sync
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    You are still capturing at 29.97 fps. Your Panasonic's output is 25fps.

    In VirtualDub capture, in the top menu click "Capture...", then click "Settings". Make sure the speed isn't defaulting to 29.97 fps.

    But didn't the same 29.97 fps happen when you captured with VirtualVCR?
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    I havent change framerate in any of the programs ive capture with.. Its standard that framerate....

    .ts files is capture in Wintv
    .avi files is capture in Virtualvcr
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  29. Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    I would think the herringbone is from the SCART adapter. I realize what SCART does, but the O.P.'s copy device doesn't have SCART input. I think he's using a passive SCART->composite adapter, which isn't the same as SCART to SCART. I dont think so, anyway.
    Using a SCART to composite adapter is exactly the same as a composite to composite connection. Just the shape of the connectors is different.

    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    The VCR's SCART output has a switch that the manual says must be switched on if s-video is desired output via SCART. I don't see where the manual states that there's a comparable composite switch.
    The switch is composite when set in the other position. On a SCART connector the s-video luma pin is the same pin as composite video. There has to be a switch to tell the device whether to send s-video or composite to the SCART connector. The receiving device will have a similar switch. Ie, you can't send composite and s-video at the same time over SCART, it's one or the other, determined by a switch.

    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    The manual also states that the only type of SCART cable that should be used is a fully-wired (emphasized) 21-pin SCART cable from SCART-to-SCART. I don't think an SCART "adapter"will work properly.
    Because if you use a SCART to SCART cable with only the composite and ground pins connected you will get a black and white picture when set to s-video, and no picture at all if you attempt to use RGB.

    Of course, it's still possible the SCART cable + adapter + composite cable is the source of some of the noise because it's that much more hardware and cabling between the source and destination. But the situation isn't comparable using a passive s-video to composite adapter (with just a capacitor) because with the SCART adapter s-video isn't converted to composite. The source device is already sending composite.

    And, of course, the OP should be using s-video instead of composite.
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  30. Originally Posted by Asesinato View Post
    I havent change framerate in any of the programs ive capture with.. Its standard that framerate....
    Then you must manually change the frame rate to 25 fps before capturing. But it looks to me like the captures are actually 25 fps, just the AVI file marked 29.97 fps (there isn't a duplicate frame every 5 frames, and if you play the TS caps next to the AVI caps you can see the AVI caps are running faster). Try opening one of the AVI files with VirtualDub and changing the source frame rate to 25 fps. I think you'll find the audio and video fall into sync.
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