Covert AVCHD to good quality DVD in premiere, how to?

[Kentho]

Nightmare trying to export avchd footage (shot with panasonic sd90) from adobe cs5.5 to Mpeg2-dvd format. The result on dvd is not good, a lot of shimmering lines and artifacts. When I use HD-writer AE 3 to export the m2ts-files to dvd, the result is exellent. I don't know what HD-writer does, but I can't get the same quality in adobe premiere export, and I have tried a lot of settings.

Here's the original videofile data (m2ts-file):
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 97.8 MiB
Duration : 32s 908ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 24.9 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 28.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=24
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 32s 600ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 23.7 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 26.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.228
Stream size : 92.0 MiB (94%)

And here's the Mpeg2-dvd export from premiere (cut/part of the original footage):
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 11.3 MiB
Duration : 10s 259ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 9 272 Kbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Duration : 10s 240ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 7 552 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 8 000 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.728
Stream size : 9.22 MiB (81%)

You can view the videoresult here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrtks...ature=youtu.be

I know it's progressive footage I've converted to interlaced, because I want the motion to be smooth. But I have also tried original interlaced footage with the same result. And I tried progressive footage and exported it progressive, and even if the result was slighly better, it's far from good, like the impressive export from HD-writer. I observed that HD-writer had coverted the progressive footage to interlaced, upper field with great sucess.

I can't stop thinking that it must be possible to achieve the same result with adobe export as with the HD-writer software. I would use hd-writer, but it's very limited on the editing side, and it will only accept the native camera file-format to export to dvd. I want to edit in premiere, and get a good quality export without the shimmering lines. I have checked the maximum rendering quality, and maximum bit depth without any luck.
Anyone have an idea what to do? I'm really stuck.

[curlyween]

I have the same camera (SD90 - great camera!).
Have a read of this blog, it explains the shortcomings of down-scaling using the AME:
http://www.precomposed.com/blog/2009/07/hd-to-sd-dvd-best-methods/

I have followed the process outlined here and it gives great results.
The only change I made was that I export my HD footage using the Lagarith lossless encoder instead of the 100MBps MPEG-2 encoder specified in the blog (same methodology though - in CS5.5 the Lagarith encoder appears in the codec list under "Microsoft AVI"). Make sure you have plenty of hard disc space!
I then use the Lagarith avi files for both HD encoding to .264 (using x.264 and MeGUI) and down-scaling to SD via the hd2sd() AVISynth package.
By the way I only shoot in interlaced and let my blu-ray player do the progressive stuff and the results are great in both HD (blu-ray) and SD (DVD).
Have a play and see what you think.

Cheers

[edDV]

Could you ID the original camera/camcorder that shot 1920x1080 50p? That bit rate looks low.

[curlyween]

OP states Panasonic HDC-SD90. M2TS info shows 50p @ (max) 28 Mbps.
I have the same camera and I shoot at 50i @ 17 Mbps with great results.

[Kentho]

Hi, thanks for the response. Yes, the SD90 is an impressive little thing. I also have read this blog, and to be honest I got a little overwhelmed. It seems so comprehensive just to have a good dvd-ready export. I tried to do everything in the description, but it was too complicated I think. I have never used such methods before, and didn't understand the procedure about the scripting and all that.

The Hd-writer software was so easy to use, and gave exellent result without any effort. I really wonder what codec it use, and why I can't get the same result in another encoder. I have tried many, but with the same bad result.

But I think I will also record interlaced from now on, since I want it to look good on the tv screen.

The camera is a panasonic SD90
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/camcorders/panasonic-hdc-sd90-928756/review

[Kentho]

I tried to export a videofile from HD-writer, and here's the mediainfo I got from the file:
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 36.7 MiB
Duration : 32s 640ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 9 420 Kbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12
Duration : 32s 560ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 8 977 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 9 286 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.866
Stream size : 34.8 MiB (95%)
Color primaries : BT.470-2 System B, BT.470-2 System G
Transfer characteristics : BT.470-2 System B, BT.470-2 System G
Matrix coefficients : BT.470-2 System B, BT.470-2 System G

[curlyween]

I must admit I have never used the Panasonic HD-Writer software. I'm a long-time Premiere Pro user, and currently have CS5.5.
I had never used AVISynth either and like you was quite daunted by the whole scripting thing as well.
But, I followed the instructions that came with the hd2sd() function, the script is just a simple text file, and it worked out great.
To be honest I believe it's worth persisting with. The little bit of extra work involved really is worth it.

[Kentho]

Yes, me too, I have used premiere for many years now, so I don't want to use another software for editing. I understand that the downscaling in adobe is too weak, it's sad. I didn't experience these kind of trobles in times when I used dv-tapes, but the I had the oportunity to downscale in camera when logging.

Well, I will try to understand the process with AVIsynth, although I got an error message when I tried yesterday, couldn't import anything. But I will try some more, and hopefully I will succeed at last. Thank you for the tip

[Hawseman]

I'm pretty happy with CS5 downscaling to DVD using the Mercury Engine and CUDA card. I use the "match source" at highest quality. Progressive AVCHD will stay progressive in the MPEG2 conversion. I've burned and distributed a couple hundred dvds through Encore at 30P without issues (NTSC). These look much better than 30i on my standalone players - seem to upscale better. My original footage is always shot at 1080P60 (Sony and Panasonic cammies).
Mercury Engine hardware acceleration is required to achieve this downscaling quality, though. If you run CS5 or CS5.5 without a CUDA card, you're missing out on the single best feature of this Adobe release.

[_Al_]

I must admit I have never used the Panasonic HD-Writer software. I'm a long-time Premiere Pro user, and currently have CS5.5.
I had never used AVISynth either and like you was quite daunted by the whole scripting thing as well.
But, I followed the instructions that came with the hd2sd() function, the script is just a simple text file, and it worked out great.
To be honest I believe it's worth persisting with. The little bit of extra work involved really is worth it.

Tackle Avisynth scripts sooner rather than later I'd say. You can start here, it is very simple and it gives you an idea how it works, , it is working with avi file, :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT_aBWHxFJ4

You can try different lines in the script like:

Spline36Resize(720,480)# it resizes video, PAL DVD demands 720x576

SelectEven()#drops every other frame so you get 25p from 50p

to make 50i from 50p you use:

AssumeFrameBased().AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

So Avi file you will load with AviSource() command

mts file is more difficult to load, AviSource() command will not load it, you need some different commands (leave it for later)

so you can use some uncompressed or lossless codecs from Premiere , where AviSource() command will load it into Avisynth script

or you use Debugmode Frame server and load video directly from Premiere's timeline into Avisynth script!

last thing is to load working avisynth script (after testing in MPC HC or in Virtual Dub for example) into encoder HCencoder (mpeg2 for DVD) or Megui, ripBot264...for H.264), yes this is the concept program can load a script instead of video and everything works just fine, like loading that script into player as if it was video

Do not switch to interlace !

Do not shoot interlace, it makes no sense with Panasonic camcorders.

[Kentho]

Ok, thanks so much for sharing tips and experience. I will surely try out these solutions. I really want to check out the cuda card, and in the meantime I try the Avisynth suggestions. I have premiere cs5.5, and I understand there's now a debugmode frame server for cs 5, I would think it will be no problem to run it with cs5.5 also?

[JKFilms]

I've spent the past few weeks tearing hair out (not really) trying to get good DVDs from my finished projects which are all shot and edited in AVCHD 1080 interlaced. The Blu-rays all look gorgeous, but the DVDs, well, not so much. What I found exasperating was if I sent the timeline to Encore and set it for best quality, with Max Render, not only are the encoding times long, but the results were not good. Lots of jagged lines on all angled objects. It just had a blocky look to it. And what was ironic was, if I took the time line and converted it to an mp4 file, then converted that mp4 file to a DVD using ConvertXtoDVD I got GREAT results! But ConvertXtoDVD doesn't offer anywhere near the level of Menu building that Encore offers. So it seemed when it came to DVDs, I was stuck with either mediocre footage or mediocre menus. (I provide both Blu-ray and DVD end products to my clients, but some of them don't have BR players yet, so the DVDs need to be good, too.

I did find it pretty ridiculous that big, bad Adobe Encore was getting bested by a little program like ConvertXtoDVD!

But I finally found the reason for the bad, blocky looking footage on the DVDs produced with Encore, and the solution (at least in my situation):

Left to its normal settings, Encore wants to produce interlaced DVDs with Lower Field scanned first. But AVCHD interlaced has Upper Field scanned first. I think that is what was causing the jagged looks and blockiness in my DVDs. I've found that by avoiding using Dynamic Bridge from Premiere to Encore, I can tell Encore to convert the interlaced footage to progressive. The encoding still takes a LONG time for it to do it, but the results are great. And on the next DVD I make, I'm going to turn off Max Render to see if the quality is still good enough (I've read that Max Render really slows down the process). Maybe I'll even drop down to VBR 1 pass.

Here are the steps:

After completing the editing, Export as Media (don't use Dynamic Bridge).

Choose MPEG-2 DVD and adjust your Bandwidth appropriately (I use Min 3, Target 7 and Max 8 Mb/s as long as it doesn't make the files too big to fit on a DVD).

Under the Field Order tab, set it to Progressive (it's possible that I could just choose "Lower First" and get good interlaced quality but I'm not sure changing field order from the source footage is a good idea, and I KNOW that changing it to Progressive is giving me good results - aybe when I have an extra 3 hours to do an extra DVD I'll check those results out).




Do the export

Open Encore and import the m2v and wav files you exported out of Premiere and proceed as normal.

[Kentho]

Hi JKFilms.
This is a complicated area (about encoding), and I think it's great that there is a forum were we can share experiences and knowledge about this. And I thank you for sharing what you have come to, I will sure try it out soon. I also have concluded that Adobe media encoder doesn't do a good job when it has to convert and resize in the same operation, resulting in jagged lines and bad general quality.

I had much better results when I exported the movie in full quality h.264 (mp4) files, then imported this file again and exported it out as mpeg-dvd. But I still have some more experimenting, because I want the best result possible for dvd. Many people still don't have blueray, and dvd isn't dead yet, so it's still important to have the opportunity to have a good quality dvd-export.

I also want to mention that in some video scenes the jagged lines are more obvious, especially in wideshots with building or other things that have lines. In these scenes I use to apply a little fast blur, just about 1,8, then you kill most of the artifacts and still have a decent picture. I don't like to add blur, but the overall will look better in some scenes.

But as said, I'm still in experimenting stage, and I am open ears to have more input about this topic.

We all want the best in quality, so it's good to share

Have a nice evening.

[_Al_]

in some video scenes the jagged lines are more obvious

It is resizing that's bad. That's the whole point to derail workflow through DebugMode Frame Server or just uncompressed export first to avoid that resizing within Premiere.

[Kentho]

_Al_, thanks. I now tried the DebugMode Frameserver with premiere, and it works great. I just had an AHA experience Because with this plugin you save a lot of time since you don't have to encode the movie full out from premiere; Frameserver makes a AVI holder file I then can process in another program. Nice