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  1. Member
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    Ok, I was wondering, for Laserdisc and VHS composite captures, which one looks better?

    I use virtualdub to capture with Lagarith. I noticed when i have read other peoples posts that
    the ATI card shows these kind of artifacts http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=151560

    I notice them in my captures, and are a headache to get rid of. Oh durr, I have a Theatre hd650
    at the moment.

    Problem is my Ausus card takes up the slot I need in PCI, so being able to use the PCIE slot
    will let me use my Auzentech Meridain 7.1 2g for audio capture.

    Is there anything new to the 750's composite capture? Does it really speed up the encoding process?
    Does the 12 bit make any difference in the composite capture? Im sure it helps the digital stuff.
    Do the new things only work with the ATI supplied drivers and have no effect on the Virtualdub side?

    I.E. Is it any better quality capture?

    If not what card gives best image quality in the sub 100 dollar class and is virtualdub friendly?

    Oh another thing I just realized is, my monitor only goes to 1680x1050, that gonna be a problem?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by smengy; 21st Mar 2012 at 10:39.
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  2. The 650 and 750 have the same dot crawl 3d comb filter. I think they're based on the same chip. They work well with perfectly still video (like from a DVD player) but when there is motion or with time base errors (just another form of motion) they don't work well. I'm not aware of any capture card that does any better.

    danno78 has lots of posts regarding the ATI cards.
    https://forum.videohelp.com/members/137657-danno78
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card-quality
    Originally Posted by danno78 View Post
    ATI Theatre HD 750 = ATI Theatre 650 without hardware mpeg2 encoder.
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1940617
    Last edited by jagabo; 21st Mar 2012 at 20:06.
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Another difference is the 750 can tap ATI "AVIVO HD" cards for HD format conversion. The marketing hype says...

    Combine ATI Theater HD 750 an ATI Radeon Premium graphics card (HD 4600 series or HD 4800 series) and experience mind-boggling GPU accelerated transcoding speed. Now you can watch, record, and convert fast and seamlessly with the best playback quality –all with your media rich PVR PC.
    None of this applies to capturing SD analog off Laserdisc so go with an ATI 650 instead. The 750 has no SD support other than software encoding. The main downside of this 650 card is an automatic gain control that can't be turned off.

    The 3D comb filter is nice for reducing dot crawl.
    Last edited by edDV; 21st Mar 2012 at 20:21.
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  4. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    The main downside of this 650 card is an automatic gain control that can't be turned off.
    Yes. And the 750 has the same problem.

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr-...=1#post2023227

    I found that using a macrovision stripper, a video "clarifier", helps quite a lot (mentioned later in that thread). It doesn't work all the time though. And the old clarifier I have sometimes screws up colors.
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    The automatic gain control is not a issue. I don't stop and start it alot. I have noticed this effect,
    but i fugure that most people who copy tv and turn it on and off alot have the most gripes.
    I start the card recording, then start the machine. Not a issue.

    I'm sorry, but SD means a Duper Duty engine in a old muscle car to me. What is that?

    If I am using lagarith, and virtualdub, is it the same for 650 and 750? (as far as sd is concerned) My computer has NEVER dropped a frame in all the time I used it capturing.

    So the 12 bit really only works in the capture of the HD stream? Or everything is captured with the 12 bit.

    I posted in another thread , and some one said that VHS is 6 bit, and with 12 bit you just get finer looking noise, so from that I am surmising that it is 12 bit capture.

    I tend to use the noise reduction in Virtualdub capture at around the 10nth slider mark. I like to make the animes look smooth, ie it takes alot of the noise out.
    When I watch the Ghost Sweeper Mikami DVD's OW!! They look horrible, massive noise all over.
    When I watch my LD rips!!! So hot!!! Puurfect!!

    So anyways, I want to get the 750 so I can use my audio card. It's that, or buy a xfx raedon that only takes up one
    agp port, and does not block the other one I'd stick my old 650 in.

    Thanks for the responses.
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  6. Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    The automatic gain control is not a issue. I don't stop and start it alot. I have noticed this effect, but i fugure that most people who copy tv and turn it on and off alot have the most gripes.
    I start the card recording, then start the machine. Not a issue.
    It has nothing to do with starting and stopping the recording. The AGC is dynamic -- it adjusts to the video as you're capturing. It screws up quite often.

    Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    I'm sorry, but SD means a Duper Duty engine in a old muscle car to me. What is that?
    SD = standard definition, ie, not high definition. If you're capturing with VirualDub you're not using the GPU.

    Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    If I am using lagarith, and virtualdub, is it the same for 650 and 750?
    Yes.

    Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    So the 12 bit really only works in the capture of the HD stream? Or everything is captured with the 12 bit.
    You can capture any source with 12 bits. Even if the device is capturing with 12 bits only 8 bits are delivered to VirtualDub. 12 bit capture does give the proc amp a little more leeway (ie proecessing between the capture and delivery to VirtualDub). But with the AGC problems it's pretty meaningless.

    Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    I posted in another thread , and some one said that VHS is 6 bit, and with 12 bit you just get finer looking noise, so from that I am surmising that it is 12 bit capture.
    That was me. With VirtualDub you only get 8 bit.

    Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    I want to get the 750 so I can use my audio card.
    Why can't you use your audio card with the 650?
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    My video card covers one of the PCI? slots. It has a big fan, only a XFX 5670 is low profile. It is a micro atx-motherboard so only two PCI? slots. The pcie 1x slot is above the vid card and useable.

    I have never noticed any of the video lightening, during lengthy captures. I only remember seeing it during the start of recording, and even then I cannot remember when I was seeing it. I used the ATI 9-6 version of 650 drivers for my install.


    I only recently noticed a pink flash occasionally in captures. I am unsure if it is because of me going from Huffyuv to lagarith,
    or a complex string of filters in post processing. I am pretty sure it is in the original capture. They are very very occasional.
    Yet I am pretty sure they were not occuring earlier when I was using Lagarith.

    Wonder if that is the Auto GAin Control issue you are talkin bout.

    If virtualdub is only 8 bit, then what capture processor should I used to get the 12 bit? The drivers that come
    along with the 750 card? I heard they are a nightmare!!!
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  8. The pink flash is probably false Macrovision detection: The TV Wonder 650 often likes to give pink static when it thinks it's being asked to record copyrighted material.

    The AGC causes brightness/contrast pumping. Think about how consumer camcorders with automatic gain control work: They adjust the brightness/contrast according to the scene material. Well, the TV Wonder 650 adds ANOTHER layer of automatic adjustment on top of that.

    It's most apparent in clips with fast scene changes or a camera that quickly moves between showing something brightly lit (say, a lamp in a dark room) to something dimly lit (say, the other side of the room). When the camera swings from the lamp to the rest of the room, the rest of the room will appear extremely dark (darker than what's on the actual tape) until the AGC adjusts. When the camera swings back to the lamp, the whites will appear very blown out "until the AGC adjusts." I put that in quotes because I've learned that the TV Wonder 650 actually has some degree of blown out whites ALL the time. It also clips the signal and occurs before the software proc amp controls, so there's no way to correct for it. An external hardware proc amp might help avoid some of the clipping - maybe - but it won't fix the pumping.

    Today, my TV Wonder 650 is sitting unused behind a monitor, so I don't have to look at it. I picked up an old All in Wonder 9600 (XT I think) AGP card to replace it, and it gives far more predictable, well-behaved captures. It has a few of its own issues, but at least they can be overcome...unlike the TV Wonder's AGC.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 22nd Mar 2012 at 16:44.
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    Hmm, I think i'm just gonna get the 750. I really have never noticed the brightness thing AGC causing any problems.
    Animes are usually pretty even brightnesses. I have seen the effect on youtube from reading other posts, and never
    have really seen this in anything I have recorded!!

    The 750 card is on sale at Neweggs till end of month for 24 dollas with rebate. A used xfx card is 40 - 60 dollars.
    ATI 7650, or the new low power version of the newer cards are not yet released. xfx6570's are hard to find in DDR5, which
    my 5670 is also ddr5.

    Information on the 750 is scant, thanks for helping me out!! I would rather be digital capable of capturing video than not.
    Was funny seeing the people in 2010 dissing the 750 cause they did not have the Broadcast high def yet lol!!

    Best of all is my Opamp modded Auzentech Meridien 2g!! That card makes music sooooo sweetly!!
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  10. I believe ATI's capture software can use the GPU for processing and MPG encoding. But I think it only supports MPG output. I don't know if it supports 12 bit processing internally (final output will be 8 bits).

    Attached is one example of the overactive AGC. During the fade-in notice how the sky gets overly bright and then tones down over the next quarter second or so. At other times it just leaves the scene overly bright and you lose all bright details. And as Mini-Me reported, you can't fix it by adjusting the proc amp. The bright areas get darker but the detail doesn't return. Because the proc amp adjustments are made after the AGC blowout.
    Image Attached Files
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    Yes and youv'e precisely proved my point. It occurs at the moment the recording starts. I just looked at
    a bunch of my videos, inside the video, where there are from bright to dark splices. There is no lightening or
    darkening there.

    The AGC is triggered when the recording starts, if you set your timer to a minute before the show starts
    it is a non issue.

    If you shut off your recorder to cut out commercials , then restart it, the AGC would do it again.

    Whatever that automated startup thing they use to trigger the DVR, would give you headaches it it triggers
    right as the show starts.

    I have never seen that in anything i have recorded. It happened to me when I had my older like 1.4 gb CPU.
    Have never seen it in my new rig.

    Somwheres I have read that the 750 card will auto detect with anything over Catalyst 8.2. So for me
    it will be plug and play. Guess Im gonna go order one!

    Hehehe what was that Venture Brothers lol!
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  12. Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    Yes and youv'e precisely proved my point. It occurs at the moment the recording starts.
    No. I clipped that out of a longer recording. It happens often. At unpredictable times. And often goes on for entire shots, not just for 1/4 second. Both luma and chroma can be effected.
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  13. Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    Yes and youv'e precisely proved my point. It occurs at the moment the recording starts. I just looked at
    a bunch of my videos, inside the video, where there are from bright to dark splices. There is no lightening or
    darkening there.

    The AGC is triggered when the recording starts, if you set your timer to a minute before the show starts
    it is a non issue.

    If you shut off your recorder to cut out commercials , then restart it, the AGC would do it again.

    Whatever that automated startup thing they use to trigger the DVR, would give you headaches it it triggers
    right as the show starts.

    I have never seen that in anything i have recorded. It happened to me when I had my older like 1.4 gb CPU.
    Have never seen it in my new rig.

    Somwheres I have read that the 750 card will auto detect with anything over Catalyst 8.2. So for me
    it will be plug and play. Guess Im gonna go order one!

    Hehehe what was that Venture Brothers lol!
    Trust me, jagabo is right. The AGC pumping occurs all the time, not just at scene changes, and especially not just at the beginning of a recording. Scene changes are just the most obvious, but the AGC continually adjusts throughout the whole recording. I have a home movie where the alternating white clipping and black crush became so unbelievably bad that I couldn't take it anymore, and the fluctuating levels confused the AGC so much that it maintained extremely clipped whites for the rest of the scene once the camera settled.

    I believe you that you're not seeing it in the middle of scenes, but don't make the mistake of thinking it won't/can't happen. I didn't notice it at first either until I happened across that tape where it was so awful, and then I started to notice it everywhere. It was at that point that I moved on to another device. If you're not seeing it, there are only two reasons:
    a.) The tapes you're testing so far have relatively stable levels. You should be fine if you're capturing only anime or other cartoons, because most frames will have both very bright and very dark spots. If you plan on capturing live-action footage, you'll probably see what we mean sooner or later.
    b.) You don't have a more stable reference to compare your captures to.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 22nd Mar 2012 at 20:25.
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    Not seeing it at all in my Anime Laserdisc captures at all. NIL NADA!!
    Just effects of over sharpening and noise reduction.

    Like I said earlier, I am in XP, service pack2, 9-6 HD650 drivers, 6-6 pan,-comb, noise reduction,
    and visual c++ patch.
    I am not sure the version of ASUS drivers(for HD5670) as I changed the name of file. I have ASUS motherboard. The less updated and less modified xp the better. I don't use the rig on the internet, so I don't risk hackers and tic tic tic hard drives g damn hackers!!
    I have scenes that are glaring white hazy overexposed, going to normal brightness, and nada, nothing,
    no brightness level variance.

    Knock on wood!!!

    Perhaps you need a Digital Video Stabilizer. I needed one for my Felix the Cat movie vhs. The old copy
    protection used to do that. Like you said, maybe your card is thinking its copyrighted.

    Maybe whatever things you are using are giving it a hardware conflict. Dunno. But my 650 has no
    such issues or like you say i never noticed them.
    Last edited by smengy; 22nd Mar 2012 at 20:43.
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  15. Originally Posted by smengy View Post
    Knock on wood!!!
    Good luck.
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    I read a ton of posts and finally found that someone said if you hook up a old
    VCR Digital Video Stabilizer, it will prevent the captures from the AGC pumping.
    I wrote it in earlier, but half guessed at it.

    It is also important the settings in Virtualdub, in capture mode, under the Capture,
    Timing tab.
    General: Do not keep the drop frames checked!!
    Resync mode: sync audio to video by resampling.
    : correct video timing for fewer dropped frames
    Audio latencey: Auto 30
    Direct show: force audio clock when audio playback enabled.

    I captured one movie, and on one part where there is a bright flash, the video gave me
    a black frame with some white dots across it, then a overexposed negative frame.
    It actually looked really cool cause it was when some vampire was resurrecting so I left it in! Like a EMP pulse.
    LOL
    Later captures i got those bars, I hooked up the VCR Digital Video Stabilizer and had no more
    problems. Probably the card thinking it sees the Macrovision protection, even tho its a laserdisc.
    Even saw same black frame , white line of blocks, and flash in a television show I was watching.
    So it is some hardware thing.

    And still Iv'e never seen the pumping!! I thought I did once, but they were playing with the camera aperature
    in the movie to simulate a candelight flicker lol!! In a anime.
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  17. Yes, I mentioned the use of a VHS stabilizer earlier in this thread. It works for some sources, not for others. And the problem isn't only short term pumping. Sometimes whole 10 or 20 second shots are out of whack.
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    If you "can't see" what an AGC is doing (many people don't), it doesn't matter. For those who notice, any non-defeatable auto gizmo that affects video is intolerable, even at very mild levels. But, then, lots of people don't "notice" many kinds of noise, flutter, color imbalance, crushed detail, or other problems.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 25th Mar 2014 at 08:09.
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  19. So is HD750 has the same AGC problem HD 650 has? I know that ATI 600 USB doesn't have any AGC problems. Thank you.
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