Need advice on what vcr to use for capturing older video tapes

[videeo]

I have a couple videos that I would like to capture. These are a couple of obscure titles that are from childhood that I would like to preserve for my archive at high quality. I have been reading through the great resources here on advice and appreciate there is a bit of investment involved with making great looking transfers, but it is also a bit of investment for about 1.5hr of video. What advice would you offer to someone in this situation? I already have two different VCR's, but they are nothing special, just one I found and one I got at a recycler. If I get a high-quality video capture device, would it be sufficient? Or should I try to find an inexpensive pro-quality VCR with TBC, NR and couple that with an inexpensive capture device? Or is there a good known person that does archiving as a home-based service?

[transporterfan]

Couple of options vcr to pc, or vcr to dvd recorder/vcr-dvd combo. Capture card is best though.

Explanation:

http://www.pctechguide.com/how-to-transfer-your-vcr-tapes-to-dvd/vcr-to-dvd-conversion...nd-pc-hardware

Which one you choose depends on specs and price.

[videeo]

Just some more info, one of my VCR's is a Mitsubishi HS-U445. I could not find much info. on it, but my impression is that it might be a mid-grade unit. Would it be adequate for transfer if I use a HQ video capture device?

[sanlyn]

Mitsubishi HS-U445 = mostly a Panasonic in disguise. Many users seem to be happy with it. Requires careful handling AFAIK.

Rating the overall quality of VHS captures and transfer to DVD:
worst: Record directly to a DVD recorder
better: Record to MPEG2 to PC using a quality capture card
best: Record with a quality capture card to lossless compressed AVI on a PC, post-processing + cleanup in PC, encode to MPEG2/DVD.

[videeo]

Thanks, that's good to know. I'm planning on doing a capture with my MacBook Pro. I might have to boot into XP if I have to for hardware compatibility. Does anyone think it would be worthwhile to post some photos taken with a camera of some footage played on my TV to judge the suitability of the VCR? (I do not yet have a capture device.) I ran a couple videos through and I thought the quality wasn't very good, but maybe it's because I have not watched tape in many years.

[sanlyn]

Images taken from TV can't tell us much. In general, even still images from captures tell only part of the story but are better than TV shots.

[videeo]

Here are some captures (these are test videos, not the ones I am trying to capture, they are in storage) they do have a slight reflection from a lamp in the room:

[sanlyn]

You should use the videos you plan to capture. Turn the lamp off. Can't say anything about the color, because the tv type is unknown. There is a lot of banding, moire, dot crawl, cross-hatch patterns, and other noise, plus red push on the tv. The strong blue might be coming from your camera's color temp setting. These videos don't seem to be in bad shape, but they're not the videos you plan to work with. Remember that what you've posted aren't captures, they're photographs. Were these played directly to TV, or were they recorded to DVD or something first?

If you plan to do any video work on your PC, you should calibrate your PC monitor. There are test patterns you can use for this, but calibrating consumer monitors without some basic software/hardware gear for that purpose is simply impossible. There are kits available from XRite and Spyder (Xrite strongly recommended). For PC work you meed VirtualDub. For serious video problems you might need Avisynth. If you're going to capture directly to a DVD recorder, be aware that the few DVD recorders sold today are inferior to those of a few years back. If these videos actually appear as you photographed them, there's something amiss with the TV, the video, the camera, or all three.

[themaster1]

Try this videeo

ImageReader("C:\Users\lin\Desktop\blue-0002 .jpg")
assumetff()
converttorgb32(interlaced=true)
input=last
LoadVirtualdubPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\virtualdub1.9\plugins\ColorMill.vdf","colorm ill",1)
#colormill(25700, 38992, 18814, 14436, 29284, 32085, 29284, 31568, 20599, 25708, 25700, 25700, 25700, 1124, 5)
colormill(25700, 38992, 18814, 14436, 29284, 32085, 29284, 31568, 20587, 18796, 25700, 25700, 25700, 1124, 5)
LoadVirtualdubPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\virtualdub1.9\plugins\Camcorder_Color_Denois e_sse2.vdf","ccd",1)
ccd(16,1)
stackhorizontal(input,last)

result:

[sanlyn]

Much better, themaster1. Working from the images has severe limitations, but it's an improvement.

[Deter]

That is molly ringwald, so this should be a stock video and the colour should never look like that to begin with. Why are these images some crazy aspect ratio. If it is VHS it should be 720x480 or half D1, if you used that method.

Yea the color looks better in the THEMASTER1 picture, but you shouldn't even need to do this.

Personally don't like the detail of some of pixels either......

[videeo]

The photos were taken of my TV while playing back from the VCR. I'll see if I can post one of the actual videos to convert tonight. The Wishbone one I might digitize though since they never re-released it on DVD and that one seems to show a little wear since it was from a public library.

The color might be off due to the white balance setting on my camera. I'll pay more attention this time I post. Thanks themaster1, that image does look way better. Aside from the color issues, which may just be artifacts of the way I captured the image, does it look like I would get improved alignment between scan lines with a JVC VCR that includes a line TBC? The videos I plan on capturing are out of print commercial ones, so the quality should be OK, though I think one might have been a used rental copy.

[sanlyn]

The images aren't captures. They're photos taken off a tv screen. Impossible to say how the originals look, but the image format is very close to 1.3333 (4:3 SD). Goes without saying, if the owner wants to archive tape to DVD it would be rendered 720x480 for 4:3 playback.

Half D1 should never be used for VHS.

[Noahtuck]

That is molly ringwald, so this should be a stock video and the colour should never look like that to begin with. Why are these images some crazy aspect ratio.

You should actually READ the thread first.......

[johns0]

videeo-in the future please use a more descriptive subject title in your posts to allow others to search for similar topics. I will change yours this time.Also moved the thread to capturing forum,nothing to do with restoration.

[sanlyn]

Aside from the color issues, which may just be artifacts of the way I captured the image, does it look like I would get improved alignment between scan lines with a JVC VCR that includes a line TBC? The videos I plan on capturing are out of print commercial ones, so the quality should be OK, though I think one might have been a used rental copy.

It's been a while since JVC was in the higher end consumer VCR market. So many recommendations were made for those machines that eBay was besieged for several years by buyers for used JVC's -- and having brought them, quickly ran them into heavy paper-weights capturing old tapes. As it was (and still is), all but a few JVC high-enders would actually play damaged or aging tapes very well, either ejecting them outright or trying to eat them for lunch. If your tapes are slow-speed VHS, don't expect thrilling playback. If you find a model in excellent condition, consider it good luck. Meanwhile, Panasonics and Mistubishis from the mid- to late 1990's are all over the place, being among the biggest selling VCR's. But by 2000, not even Panasonic was making VCR's with any level of durability.

A line-level TBC (line-by-line timing correction and other unstable playback issues) are essential for smooth tape output. Somewhat less essential are framel-level TBC's used to correct full-frame/audio sync timing, and many will defeat copy protection -- something a line-level TBC won't do. But the early digital TBC's built into VCR's are surpassed by later TBC's found in just about all DVD recorders, even new ones. These can be used as pass-thru filtering and TBC devices between your VCR and PC. You could also copy directly to DVD, but with two caveats: first, even pristine tapes have residual tape noise that doesn't bide well with digital encoders. Various VHS-based disturbances will look worse once encoded, if they are not at least nominally filtered and cleaned a bit. Second, DVD recorders will not record copy-protected sources (although some recorders will ignore copy protection when used as pass-thru devices).

In the topic listing for the Restoration forum, at the top of the list, you'll find a sticky about recommended VCR's. The earliest pages are about out of date now, but discussions for the last couple of years have a lot of information about popuilar and useful VCR's. There have also been several recent discussions in the Capture and Restoration forums about DVD machines as pass-thru devices.

[videeo]

Yes, I went through the list in the recommendations for VCR's, and noticed they are hard to find or expensive without the seller showing proof of quality of operation. I don't mind getting another unit if it would clean-up the video. I was also thinking those recommendations might be geared toward being machines that can handle any situation, including poor home recordings. I was wondering if maybe I can save some money if getting one of those units is overkill for the state my footage is in. Below I have camera photographs of the main tape I am interested in archiving the best I can. It is played with a Mitsubishi HS-U445 over RCA composite. I think the white balance is a lot closer, however, I am more interested in assessment about the other aspects such as alignment of the scan lines and noise or lack of detail that may be resolved with another VCR. This video has a sticker on it that says "Standard Speed Duplication".











I have seen some captures in past posts in this forum and feel that this footage could probably be played a little better and show more detail.

[robjv1]

Two things to note here:

a) it's almost impossible to tell much at all from camera shots of a television screen as far as the quality of the footage in terms of detail
b) you can only tell so much from a still

I'd venture a guess and say that this footage you just posted looks in fine shape -- but as I said, it's hard to tell much. Standard Speed Duplication just means it was dubbed in SP I believe, although typically those stickers are intended to notify consumers that the video has been dubbed in LP or SLP/EP. I've never seen one announcing an SP dub, but check your VCR to confirm.

As far as what to do -- it really depends on what you want and how much of a hassle you're willing to go through.

If you want the very best quality out of your tapes, be prepared to spend a big chunk of money (capture card and/or hunt down one of the stellar used DVD recorders that used the LSI Logic chips from 2006, proc-amp, detailer, TBC, SVHS VCR w/ Line TBC, etc) and lots of time (learning to use the equipment, software for further restoration, etc). If you go this route, be prepared to spend time testing the equipment out and probably ship some stuff back to the seller when it doesn't arrive in fully working condition. This is a long and arduous road, but if you have a lot of footage or some money to burn, it can be a fun hobby too.

If your budget isn't very high and your VCR is up to par in your opinion, then get a good capture card and you can spend more of your time learning how to improve things in software.

Another alternative if you have very little footage is to let someone else handle it for you who already has the equipment and know how. That may end up being must cheaper and take up far less time than taking it on yourself.

There really is no magic bullet VCR -- that's why so many of us have multiple ones and switch them in and out of workflows to deal with various issues. In many cases the tradeoff is between one set of undesirable issues for another set of less undesirable issues -- in that situation, the trick is to come up with a set that can be remedied mostly in software or with supplementary hardware.

[videeo]

Thanks for the input. Yes, I realize it is sort of problematic to get a detailed assessment of the quality with photos, but thought I would give it a shot to see if there are any obvious issues to the gurus here. The two videos I would like to have archival quality add up to about 80 minutes of video. I am enjoying reading the posts here about technical issues and such, but for such little footage, I would also be interested in paying for the service, but commercial houses would probably not want to touch these sources. I'm thinking maybe I could try a gamble at a JVC pro unit and use a Canopus 300 at max DV bitrate for archive and convert to mp4 to play on my ps3. I would prefer huffyavi, for future tweaking when quantum computing becomes common, but I don't think there are any affordable USB or firewire units that can output lossless.

[sanlyn]

Mm, well...I wouldn't obsess about SVHS players. Those players don't play EP tapes well anyway, and even at SP a VHS tape on an SVHS player still looks like VHS -- it won't look like SVHS. It can't. They might have s-video outputs, but they're inferior to the comopsite->svideo converters, comb filters and TBC in passthru's that I described earlier.

There is not much detail in these images. True, if shot from a tv screen that's a somewhat inconclusive point, but the shot of the car on the road has no detail at all (look at the trees), nor does the garden shot. The kitchen shot has gamma and level problems problems (at least, the image does). If this tape source is EP (slow speed), many VCR's don't play EP that well -- certainly, only one or two hard to find models of JVC's top consumer machines can make EP look useable. I don't know about your specific Mitsubishi in detail, but the better Panasonics from 1996-1999 do a better job, even if there is some oversharpening and a few other problems, but most people seem to like those effrects (it's easy enough to tone that down on a PC).

In any event, the tapes don't appear to have major damage or anything like that. From the images I'd say they will need some work. As fanuly videos, I'd think they would be important enough to you and yours for at least an effort at improving them. But it's up to you.

[videeo]

To clarify, it looks like a home video, but it is a low budget commercial title. I don't think any company would convert it due to copyright law. Also, when I said pro, I meant one of the JVC models with line TBC and DNR. I am hoping there is some detail that could be brought out with a line TBC and some DNR.

How can I tell what speed the video was recorded at?

I was looking at another recent thread about the ATI Theater 750 USB tuner. Would the current version Diamond ATI TV Wonder HD 750 USB be adequate for lossless capture?

[sanlyn]

I think it's been noted earlier: A line TBC in itself won't give "more" detail. It's the heads and overall circuitry that count. Line TBC's correct playback timing, they don't enhance detail. You might not like the digital artifacts and motion smear you get from JVC's digital DNR. You can't turn off the DNR without turning off the TBC at the same time. They work together. Turning off the digital DNR/TBC gives a visibly softer image with less detail.

Your VCR's front panel readout should tell you what speed is being played.

The ATI series is well regarded. I hear the earlier ones are better, but other members likely know the 750 better than I. Diamond markets the same basic chip, different software.

[videeo]

Turning off the digital DNR/TBC gives a visibly softer image with less detail.

That's why I am interested in trying a unit with those features. I guess the definition of detail is subjective. If the lines are not aligned properly in the horizontal direction, then personally they affect the overall clarity of the image and it becomes a distraction.

[sanlyn]

Turning off the digital DNR/TBC gives a visibly softer image with less detail.

That's why I am interested in trying a unit with those features. I guess the definition of detail is subjective. If the lines are not aligned properly in the horizontal direction, then personally they affect the overall clarity of the image and it becomes a distraction.

No, that's not clarity. That's stability. You can have a very sharp but skewered image with bent lines and wiggling verticals, but there will still be plenty of detail (until something moves, when it looks smeared).

[robjv1]

Yeah, truth be told not everyone prefers the JVC SVHS deck 'touch' on their tapes, although for noisy tapes they can be a godsend. Some people do find the NR overly aggressive and there are plenty of threads comparing different decks that will give you an idea of what to expect. Most models push forth a very similar image among the different picture modes, with 'Edit' being the sharpest (but also disengaging most of the NR features). A few models (the DVHS and WVHS models) take a bit of a different approach and I personally find the NR more pleasing on those models -- but those are overkill in terms of price for just a few tapes.

[sanlyn]

videeo, maybe a short real-world example of what pass-thru TBC can accomplish. I transferred a tape from VHS to DVD for my nephew a few years back. That 3-hour capture is long gone now, but I have a few example clips that I saved. The "bad" video didn't have visible damage, but it wouldn't play properly. A Toshiba RD-K2 DVD recorder was used as pass-thru for its TBC and y/c comb filter. It was captured from VCR composite -> Toshiba input -> y/c filter turned on -> Toshiba's s-video output to a capture card. Here are a couple of images from the early "bad" and the later "fixed" capture. Rips along top borders are common with old tape.

The "bad" sample was slightly reduced in size and given borders, so the full damage wouldn't be half-hidden by a CRT's overscan. MPEG unfiltered 352x480. http://dc201.4shared.com/download/XkrgWcwB/Sample2_bad.mpg

[Attachment 11556 - Click to enlarge]

The "fix" sample was rendered full-size (704x480 NTSC). The only filter used on the "fix" version was some light NeatVideo.
http://dc432.4shared.com/download/Lh8bM50i/Sample2_fix.mpg

[Attachment 11557 - Click to enlarge]

I don't have the capture that I first btried to make at the time with my then-alive JVC 9900. The JVC wouldn't play the tape. This was played with a Panasonic PV-8661 made in 1998, bought on eBay. The original tape was recorded at 6-hour EP.

[videeo]

Here are some captures. I used an ATI 750 USB over composite with AMcap and Huffy. I tried to use VirtualDub, but it just would not show anything on the screen. The first time I used it it did show the tuner fuzzing, but I couldn't find where to switch to composite. Then I installed the drivers over again and now I get nothing with it...pretty frustrating. Anyway, please examine these and see what you think about enhancing the capture. Thanks.

20120323000614171.avi

20120323000633703.avi

How to I properly cut-off the head noise at the bottom?

[sanlyn]

Here are some captures. I used an ATI 750 USB over composite with AMcap and Huffy. I tried to use VirtualDub, but it just would not show anything on the screen. The first time I used it it did show the tuner fuzzing, but I couldn't find where to switch to composite. Then I installed the drivers over again and now I get nothing with it...pretty frustrating. Anyway, please examine these and see what you think about enhancing the capture. Thanks.

. . . . .

How to I properly cut-off the head noise at the bottom?

Ah, yes, those exciting and amusing device driver problems. Might depend on the operating system version, but I'm no expert with the 750 so I'd best leave that to someone who knows better.

Handling the 10 pixels of head switching band at the bottom of the frame depends on the software you use. The VirtualDub Border Control plugin lets you add borders (it even lets you feather the border edges, give the border a color, and other fancy stuff). But that filter doesn't cut pixels, it just covers them.

You can do it in Avisynth with the Crop() and AddBorders() commands. When cropping in a YUY2 or YV12 colorspace, use even numbers only and then add borders. The crop and add routine should give back the same frame dimensions you started with. I tried it three ways in AVisynth:

Crop A: "Crop(0,0,0,-10).AddBorders(0,0,0,10)" cuts 10 pixels from the bottom, then adds 10 pix of bottom border.

[Attachment 11566 - Click to enlarge]

Crop B: "Crop(0,0,0,-10).AddBorders(0,4,0,6)" cuts the same 10, but adds pix to top and bottom alike, for a more vertically centered image.

[Attachment 11567 - Click to enlarge]

Crop C: "Crop(10,0,0,-10).AddBorders(8,4,2,6)" cuts away the left-hand whitish blur, but this doesn't seem to be as bothersome for people as the bottom noise. It gets the whole frame roughly centered. This is for those who really need it that much.

[Attachment 11568 - Click to enlarge]

If you view the Avisynth results in VirtualDub, remember that if you just click "Save as AVI..", VirtualDub will have converted this YUY2 video to RGB, which you might not want. So in VirtualDub set your output color space to YUY2, set compression to huffyuv, and set processing mode to "fast recompress". These 3 settings are in the "Video" menu in VirtualDub. This will preserve your original colorspace.

[robjv1]

My general impressions on your video:

Clip #1
1. The footage definitely looks to be an EP source. Certainly some noise present in the print and the VCR.

2. Overall not a bad image -- maybe could use a little punching up contrast-wise. I don't think a better VCR would recover more 'detail' though, as it looks like an EP tape.

Clip #2
1. You can see the grain and noise more clearly in this one, especially in the sky. That's something that could be addressed in software or with another VCR, but it's mild enough and has so few other issues that I think software would be the way to go with it.

Overall, not a bad looking video at all. No major timebase errors, no noticeable jitter. It really just needs a little color tweaking and that's about it, I think. How is the audio btw?

How does your capture here compare to watching it on the TV with a VCR?

[sanlyn]

Looking at video #1 (20120323000614171.avi), the clip is hard-telecined. The blur effect shows up on the telecined frames. In SeparateFields() view, the top (even) fields look OK, the bottom (odd) fields aren't as crisp. I'm guessing that's a VHS production bug.

Video #2 doesn't have that effect, but it is hard-telecined. This one has some macroblocking on skin highlights. It might be the tape, might be the capture device, hard to say. Happens often with tape. Software could easily fix it. A VCR with the typical DNR/TBC would make those macroblocks look weird by smearing it every time something moved. There would be smoother playback if this video were IVTC'd and soft-telecined. On a PC, the telecine would show up as some blending every 2 of 5 fields, but wouldn't be seen on TV.
I'll play with it a little and see what happens.

I think the '750' device has a built-in line TBC ?? I seem to remember reading that it does. I don't see any obvious VHS line-bending effects here.

The top video could use some of the IVTC treatment and some slight sharpening (not much -- you can't create detail where none exists). I agree with robjv1, the first AVI looks like EP speed. IMHO a Mitsubishi will play EP with more clarity than a JVC or SONY would.