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  1. Sorry, I'm lazy to read the whole thing, just downloaded last clip SHOWPROB clip.MPG, I'm sorry if I say something that was said or thought of.

    Windows Media Player plays that all right, other player MPC-HC show shaddows but I did not have lokked into how it handles interlace in what settings it is right now, probably not good, like your player, I do not use MPC for interlace footage, occasionally I use Window Media Player for this if I have to. So my guess is your player does not handle interlace correctly.

    Classic check through Avisynth:
    directshowsource("D:\path\SHOWPROB clip.MPG")
    assumetff()
    separatefields()

    shows no problem

    double checked on CRT seems to be ok too,

    Use Two pass, check that box for two pass, it will distribute bitrate in more proper way .
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    Old,
    by the easy way you mean Make Movie/Burn it to DVD with menus, I think. I don't know why one can't specify the parameters. Even the manual says one should be able to choose rendering settings from a dropdown list. It just isn't there.
    As for Make Movie/Save it to Hard Drive, it is possible to choose and customize the templates.
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  3. Originally Posted by vkmast View Post
    Old,
    by the easy way you mean Make Movie/Burn it to DVD with menus, I think. I don't know why one can't specify the parameters. Even the manual says one should be able to choose rendering settings from a dropdown list. It just isn't there.
    As for Make Movie/Save it to Hard Drive, it is possible to choose and customize the templates.
    Thanks for that.

    OK. Well I posted the settings for the Make Movie Save to HDD that I used. Can anyone tell my why it's not working?

    Nick
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  4. Guys don't use burn it to DVD or whatever there is in the menu, it leads nowhere. I do not think it exports AC3 or mp2 audio it is PCM only, which means 1500kbps and then it is not enough for video then, not sure about storing the whole thing on HDD.

    Use the route through DVD Architect as edDV rendered step by step, #19 post, I know you are looking for the easy way, but not worthy. You can have nice menu also.
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  5. It was not just that I wanted the easy way. It was that I cannot get good result using the other way. However, using Save to Disc, Media Architect 50 fps two pass and VFR I now have a pretty good (if not spectacular) output.

    I have no idea what fixed it at this stage. It will take me a lot of courage to start deconstructing it. I would like to, because I want to know.

    HOWEVER. A new conundrum.

    Nowhere (that I can see) _except_ in the "easy way" is there an offer to not letterbox.


    So now I have the "DVD format" of 720/576 and a 16:9 video to work with. I always end up with a non-full-screen output. Yet if I play a DVD on my 16:9 TV, it plays as 16:9, yet when I play what DVD Architect creates I play a 16:9 video letterboxed in a 16:9 creen..wot the....
    Last edited by OldNick; 9th Mar 2012 at 20:55.
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  6. You did not choose 2 pass, for DVD Architect, try it, and go on from there ...VFR you ment VBR ? , an lastly 50fps is strange, Vegas refers to 50i interlace footage as 25 fps marked as interlace, what suppose to be on DVD, not 50fps
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  7. 2 pass did make a difference (although I was told to not use V(yes B )R, but to use CBR instead, then set for quality choice.

    I have just found that p50fps is a waste of time anywy, because as you are probably saying, when I go to DVD I seem to only be allowed 25fps anyway.

    I think I am going to try taking the videos from my camera, editing them, putting them out as 1920/1080 AVCHD, back to the camera, and see if Panasonic's own converter will accept them. It gave really beautiful results on DVD. Vegas/DVD Architect, but not special. And P's offering gives full-screen without all the stuffing about.

    WUP. Nope. No AVCHD 50p .........sigh....
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  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    I just need to summarise, if I may. As I say I am lost.

    My source file is 1920 1080 50p, from my camera.
    Let's start with the source. What camera?

    Make/Model will help. Very few cameras shoot 1920x1080 50p.


    PS: Ahh I see Panasonic mentioned in the last post. Why not the first? We are far ahead of you. Trying to deal with 1920x1080 50p to Blu-ray. Currently it won't work.
    Last edited by edDV; 9th Mar 2012 at 21:41.
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  9. Originally Posted by vkmast View Post
    In VMS 11, you have the option not to letterbox also in Render as... main window Render Options (scroll down there).
    And you can render video and audio separately OR include audio with video.
    Wup! I missed this and I did not realise there was a heap of screenery down below in the Render As box.

    Sorry.
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  10. If you have lots of room on DVD, Less then one hour and 15 min, sure, CBR is fine, better, audio min. 192 AC3.

    Did you try Windows Media Player to watch your encodings ? I did not get your response to my #31 input in this thread. You might watch DVD differently than mpg you generated for DVD Architect.
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  11. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    I just need to summarise, if I may. As I say I am lost.

    My source file is 1920 1080 50p, from my camera.
    Let's start with the source. What camera?

    Make/Model will help. Very few cameras shoot 1920x1080 50p.


    PS: Ahh I see Panasonic mentioned in the last post. Why not the first? We are far ahead of you. Trying to deal with 1920x1080 50p to Blu-ray. Currently it won't work.
    General
    ID : 1 (0x1)
    Complete name : C:\Panasonic\00007.MTS
    Format : BDAV
    Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
    File size : 38.4 MiB
    Duration : 11s 916ms
    Overall bit rate mode : Variable
    Overall bit rate : 27.0 Mbps
    Maximum Overall bit rate : 28.0 Mbps

    Video
    ID : 4113 (0x1011)
    Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : High@L4.2
    Format settings, CABAC : Yes
    Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
    Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=24
    Codec ID : 27
    Duration : 11s 960ms
    Bit rate mode : Variable
    Bit rate : 25.6 Mbps
    Maximum bit rate : 26.0 Mbps
    Width : 1 920 pixels
    Height : 1 080 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Frame rate : 50.000 fps
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.247
    Stream size : 36.4 MiB (95%)

    Audio
    ID : 4352 (0x1100)
    Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
    Format : AC-3
    Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
    Mode extension : CM (complete main)
    Codec ID : 129
    Duration : 12s 32ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 384 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 6 channels
    Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
    Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Delay relative to video : -40ms
    Stream size : 564 KiB (1%)

    Text
    ID : 4608 (0x1200)
    Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
    Format : PGS
    Codec ID : 144
    Duration : 11s 456ms
    Delay relative to video : -40ms
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  12. Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    If you have lots of room on DVD, Less then one hour and 15 min, sure, CBR is fine, better, audio min. 192 AC3.

    Did you try Windows Media Player to watch your encodings ? I did not get your response to my #31 input in this thread. You might watch DVD differently than mpg you generated for DVD Architect.
    Sorry. I am a bit inundated here.

    yes I did try WMPlayer. I also tried VLC and Win Media Centre. They were all giving me trouble.

    The VBR and 2-pass is working, but in all hoinesty I cannot say if 2-pass was the cure. As I said I am going to try it without. I do not know what fixed the output. Same players etc....
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  13. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Camera make and model.

    I know why you are lost.

    Frame rate : 50.000 fps
    How did that happen?
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  14. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Camera make and model.

    I know why you are lost.

    Frame rate : 50.000 fps
    How did that happen?
    What? I was showing you it is 1920 1080 50p. It happened because that's what the camera shoots....in 1080 50p. It's a PAL camera.
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  15. Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    Originally Posted by vkmast View Post
    In VMS 11, you have the option not to letterbox also in Render as... main window Render Options (scroll down there).
    And you can render video and audio separately OR include audio with video.
    Wup! I missed this and I did not realise there was a heap of screenery down below in the Render As box.

    Sorry.
    HAH! But then as far as I can see DVD Architect makes it letterbox again. It plays full screen (but only in Win Media Centre) and then the resulting vob file will not play in Win Media Centre. All other programmes give me partial screen.

    This is just ridiculous.
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    Old,
    did you check your DVD Architect Project Properties (File/Properties)?
    If you are now trying BD, try the free Splash Lite player.
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  17. mmm...yep. I set it to 16:9 and Pal 720*576. Did I miss something? This still all confuses me as those two sets of figures just do not gel

    BD? I will look at those links. Thanks.
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  18. Member
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    Old,
    BD = Blu-ray Disc here (just in case). Also make a note of what _Al_said You might watch DVD differently than mpg you generated for DVD Architect. Try testing using a rewritable disc.
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  19. If you mean with a different player, that's not an issue. I don;t use the Vegas Open after rendering. I go to the folder and try various Open With to get different players.
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  20. Member
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    Old,
    I mean trying an actual DVD.
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  21. In all the to and fro, I am not sure if this was said. But the ghosting was definitely caused by using None as the Interlace. I know I was told to use Top Field First, btu I am not sure if None was actually id'd as the cause of the ghost.

    If it was I apologise. I just thought I would post the results of my tests, as I said I would.

    EDIT: Nope. I forgot that differemt players dealt with it differently Still do not know.

    I now have VLC with ghost and showing the interlacing. Windows MC playing OK, and Windows Media Player showing ghe ghost....whatever I set the interlace to.

    Nick
    Last edited by OldNick; 11th Mar 2012 at 04:09.
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  22. Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    In all the to and fro, I am not sure if this was said. But the ghosting was definitely caused by using None as the Interlace. I know I was told to use Top Field First, btu I am not sure if None was actually id'd as the cause of the ghost.

    If it was I apologise. I just thought I would post the results of my tests, as I said I would.

    EDIT: Nope. I forgot that differemt players dealt with it differently Still do not know.

    I now have VLC with ghost and showing the interlacing. Windows MC playing OK, and Windows Media Player showing ghe ghost....whatever I set the interlace to.

    Nick

    Part of your problem is not using the proper settings or software to preview the result, so you don't know if the problems is with playback or the exported file

    If you are using VLC, set deinterlace mode to either yadif 2x, or bob (video=> deinterlace on , video=> deinterlace mode=> bob or yadif 2x)

    The ghosting in the original sample file was caused by incorrect vegas settings. It had blended fields , not frames
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  23. Thanks for the reply.

    It may be a part of the problem, indeed. The trouble is, I have realised that this started a couple of days back. They were working 3-4 days ago, or less. now they don't. I did not make any changes.

    Windows did an Update (I thought I had it off, and now _do_ have it turned off) and it was after that the trouble started. Problems is my System restore points have been erased until just after the update. Great. Install an update, stuff everything up, then don;t allow a restore?

    WMC will not play _any_ vob files now. That was the clue that led me to realise something was amiss, last night.

    Nick
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  24. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    .and a segment of the clip
    I had a look at the file over the weekend and see no problems with it. Conceptually you are dealing with the following issues. Since these are common I'm doing a thorough write up as time allows. Look for the first installment this evening California time. The good news is you will get a high quality DVD. Bad news, Blu-Ray is not yet 1080 50p ready.

    1. 1920x1080 50p/60p source file from Panasonic camcorder.

    2. Project settings - What do they mean?

    3. Downsize to DVD in Vegas, Premiere, etc.

    4. Deinterlace mode in Vegas Project settings.

    5. 1920x1080 source to 720x576 "DVD Wide" in Vegas ... aspect ratio

    6. Blu-ray issues with 50p/60p source.

    This is how your 720x576i file displays from my Sony Blu-ray player (uncorreced for levels).

    Note: SHOWPROB clip.MPG (USB stick) from Blu-Ray player composite video output.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	vlcsnap-2012-03-12-15h44m28s216__wide.png
Views:	174
Size:	806.7 KB
ID:	11425

    Source SHOWPROB clip.MPG frame shown as 720x576i from Virtualdubmod (uncorrected).
    Click image for larger version

Name:	SHOWPROB clip.png
Views:	171
Size:	790.0 KB
ID:	11423
    Last edited by edDV; 12th Mar 2012 at 18:47.
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  25. Member edDV's Avatar
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    click on pictures to enlarge.
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  26. I think he is aware of it, he tries to set his players to display videos in proper manner (in another thread) . There might be something wrong in the system or some players are just wrongly configured , or both.

    Anyway, besides Avisynth, VirtualDub methods, there is other way to check if those mpeg2 files are correct. I have WDTV Live sitting by one CRT over LAN and this is the most easiest way to check interlace mpeg2 for DVD if everything is all right. I share a folder and play it over LAN and I know right away if there is something wrong with it or not. No need to burn optical discs and to make a bunch of beer coasters anymore like before. (You know before Avisynth know-how time and home network time) .
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  27. Thanks for the input guys. I do not mean to be rude but things have changed.

    Yes I think I have the result I want now and while I have not plumbed the depths I have a superficial understanding of what setting does what. I reckon that's about all I can take ATM. I am a bit tired of it and just want to do some filming practice and see what I can from it.

    And yes there are serious problems with my players, which I did not (deliberately) cause. I have found that the problem is not only with my stuff, but commercial DVDs as well. I now have it on two machines, just in the last few days.

    Unfortunately, on one machine I have lost the restore points and on the other they appear corrupt, so I cannot restore from them anyway. If the restore finds one file that cannot be extracted, it bombs out, without the option.

    So while I am now happy with the creation of DVD s and the conversion of software, I have a real stuff up on both machines...just in time to spoil any pleasure I may have got out of this.

    Nick
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  28. Member edDV's Avatar
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    That's OK we will carry on without you since this has general appeal.

    I'd appreciate if you could post some source video of the same clip.
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  29. Great! Seriously. I will follow at leisure.

    Nick
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  30. Member edDV's Avatar
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    1. 1920x1080 50p/60p source file from Panasonic camcorder.

    Panasonic stepped outside the AVCHD 1080 50i/60i format with 1080 50p/60p in 2010 giving them some bragging rights but without support from alternate software vendors. Sony and Panasonic partnered on the original AVCHD standard but as classic adversaries, they don't play well together. Sony later launched some 1080 50p/60p equipment under the AVCHD version 2.0 name (also includes 3D and the orphan 720 30p AVCHD Lite variant) but that seems to come as a surprise to their Madison WI USA Vegas division who have stumbled around announcement of AVCHD Version 2.0 support yet their products can be customized to work with 1080 50p/60p.

    Meanwhile the Blu-ray standard only supports 1280x720 50p/60p maximum. There are some early disorganized announcements of future version 2.0 Blu-ray player 1080 50p/60p support. Sony has said this will happen with a firmware update but didn't mention which player models will be compatible or when new Blu-ray Version 2.0 players will ship.

    Such is life on the bleeding edge.

    2. Vegas Project Properties - What do they mean?

    Project Properties usually are set to source format, in this case 16:9 1920x1080 50p (Double PAL) with square pixels. This describes the format of the timeline. For Panasonic 50p source, the timeline icons and preview monitor should change to 16:9 wide. If other formats are dragged to the timeline, Vegas will convert them to project format. The processing required will slow down the responsiveness or make playback choppy depending on the computer's CPU+GPU power. If playback is too choppy, Vegas offers a pre-render mode.

    Deinterlace method can be set to "None", "Blend" or "Interpolate". None of these affect progressive source with a progressive timeline. It will affect an interlace source and/or an interlace timeline but that is outside this case.


    3. Downsize to 50i DVD in Vegas, Premiere, etc.

    If the project and source were normal AVCHD 1080 50i interlace, the video would first be deinterlaced to 25p using the selected method in project settings, then downsized to 720x576, and then re-interlaced to 50i (25 fps) prior to encoding to DVD MPeg2. The resulting file would show deinterlace artifacts.

    50p(60p) source doesn't require deinterlace. Each frame is directly down-converted to 50i(60i) fields. The resulting 720x576 50i (25 fps) will look like the frame shown below as 720x576 square pixels (flagged 16:9 wide).

    A frame from your clip...
    Click image for larger version

Name:	SHOWPROB clip.png
Views:	181
Size:	790.0 KB
ID:	11426
    Click on picture to see full size.

    From Mediainfo

    General
    Complete name : D:\SHOWPROB clip.MPG <--- there is no problem
    Format : MPEG-PS
    File size : 1.14 MiB
    Duration : 880ms
    Overall bit rate : 10.8 Mbps

    Video
    ID : 224 (0xE0)
    Format : MPEG Video
    Format version : Version 2
    Format profile : Main@Main
    Format settings, BVOP : Yes
    Format settings, Matrix : Default
    Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12
    Duration : 880ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 9 000 Kbps <------------ near maximum DVD quality
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 576 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9 <------------------ indicates wide flag present
    Frame rate : 25.000 fps
    Standard : PAL
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Interlaced
    Scan order : Top Field First <------- When source is TFF, DVD should be TFF
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.868
    Stream size : 967 KiB (83%)


    The odd and even lines depict separate sequential frames from the 50p source. The wide flag tells the player to horizontally scale the playback frames to 1024x576 (16:9) or letterbox 768x576 (4:3) or center cropped 768x576 (4:3) depending on player settings. Interlace players play the 50i field sequence directly. Players set to output progressive will deinterlace the 50i video using various methods (e.g. blend, bob or motion adaptive weave/bob). Blend converts 50i to 25p by averaging the two fields. Bob vertically resizes fields into 50p frames.

    The better software players (e.g. MPCHC, VLC) use the Yadif deinterlacer to convert 50i to 50p. Progressive DVD or Blu-ray players use more sophisticated hardware deinterlacers. My Sony DVP-S370 (BX-37 NTSC Blu-ray model) has a good deinterlacer/scaler. It does a near perfect smart bob conversion of 60i to 60p.

    I was surprised to see it accepted your 50i PAL clip off a USB stick and converted it to telecined 60i. The player output composite telecine sequence seems to be 2:4 (2 mixed frames followed by 4 progressive) but your clips was only 0.8 sec long so it is difficult to tell.

    Here are the progressive frames that match the interlace frame above. As you can see, the bob deinterlace in the player was very good. The 50i DVD gets displayed as 50p.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	vlcsnap-2012-03-12-15h44m28s216__wide.png
Views:	234
Size:	806.7 KB
ID:	11427

    Click image for larger version

Name:	vlcsnap-2012-03-13-02h54m58s115_2wide.png
Views:	157
Size:	796.4 KB
ID:	11429
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