VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3
1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 76
Thread
  1. What cards do you use?
    Can you post samples?

    I am on the look out to solve my current problem, which is that my card doesnīt Fully support PAL.
    I get Green/Red Chroma lines all over the place thanks to that.


    As the Title says, Uncompressed is a must, i donīt want H264 or something, sure it can have the feature, but i want to be able to capture with Virtualdub and use the codec i want to use.


    If someone has a card that supports both NTSC and PAL (which many do). If you can try PAL, please do, it can be Game Console, DVD, VCR - S-video/Composite, doesnīt really matter, itīs the PAL signal that do.


    Many thanks!
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    Might help if you stated your location, what card you use, details of VCR, cables etc. The issue may NOT be the card at all.

    A few samples of output might help as well.

    So what codec do you propose to use when capturing uncompressed ?

    I use a Canopus ADVC but, as that does not do uncompressed, samples will be of no use.

    I could do uncompressed with a Ģ25 Hauppauge Wintv card I use for Pal60 work but again, due to the demands on the HDD, I would not do that.
    Quote Quote  
  3. https://forum.videohelp.com/attachments/7548-1308910457/Dink.avi

    https://forum.videohelp.com/attachments/7565-1308979610/Dunno.avi

    https://forum.videohelp.com/attachments/7248-1307430626/lines.avi

    There are examples in which i get Red/Green lines.

    My capture card is, MSI TV@nywhere Conexant (something), can probably look up.

    Can probably Guarantee that itīs the Card, as i have tried 2 VCR + DVD, and N64,PS2 and Xbox.
    All which had the same problems with PAL as those clips above (itīs more apperant on consoles as there is less noise to hide it).

    I got Harddrive space, but donīt want to be forced to capture uncompressed(totally uncompressed).

    I used Lagarith and UT Video Codec.

    But it appears when i play or watch through Virtualdub as well.

    Itīs Extremely apparent on Light Blue, Yellow and Red Surfaces.
    Quote Quote  
  4. As I understand it now, those are Hanover Bars. You can get rid of them (mostly) with:

    Code:
     MergeChroma(last, BilinearResize(width,height/2).BilinearResize(width,height))
    There's a VirtualDub filter called rmpal that's supposed to fix this too.
    Last edited by jagabo; 26th Feb 2012 at 23:26.
    Quote Quote  
  5. Yeah i know, and use the filters in a script.
    But i would like to be able to capture without getting the chroma to totally fail, as i mean, it canīt be good at all.
    Even if you can blur them away, there will be loss of detail in the chroma right?


    EDIT:

    Read about the Hanover Bars now a bit. But donīt get it, is it supposed to be like that or is the Decoder supposed to solve it?
    As it said, some just take the lines from the previous frame and blur with the current (like the script i guess). While other used some kind of swift burst.

    I guess the later solves the need of blurring and use the entire chroma resolution, and as i understand it, itīs the Card thatīs suppose to do that.

    My card doesnīt even have PAL60, so itīs probably Old and probably just decode it with no correction at all.
    So i guess newer cards will solve it?

    Though the card i tried before (Aver Media) had the problem as well, though it totally failed on VCR capture thanks to itīs bad handling with the bad timings.
    Last edited by zerowalker; 27th Feb 2012 at 01:41.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    I know this sounds petty but 'Uncompressed' means just that. Lagarith is not uncompressed. It is lossless.

    I will assume that your VCRs are pure PAL and not some form of modified versions.

    But are these VHS Pal or actually NTSC and you are trying to capture through a Pal VCR with a card that does not fully support Pal60? Not many do.

    BTW Looked at the samples. I can only see issues with the first one. The second is too short and the third looked fine to me. Playback with Windows Media Player Home Cinema.
    Quote Quote  
  7. The hanover bars are are result of the PAL broadcast. Newer PAL TVs (probably only digital TVs) have the ability to remove them by averaging pairs of scan lines together -- roughly what I did with the above script. It occurred to me that you can simply ConvertToYV12() too. The interlaced to progressive YV12 conversion will blur the chroma in much the same way.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member hydra3333's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Search Comp PM
    You are in a PAL country that doesn't broadcast digital ? I assume you're not in Aus because analogue is "out" and PAL mpeg2 is the standard. TinyTwin captures digital mpeg2 broadcasts fine here.
    Quote Quote  
  9. His caps are obviously old VHS tapes.
    Quote Quote  
  10. Wait so in the end you just blur the lines?
    I donīt understand, how can Every Other chroma line be blurred, i mean it must ruin chroma extremely right?
    And was this meant to be, wasnīt it supposed to use some kind of every other line thing to use it efficiently?

    I am from Sweden, and the Tapes or Commercial and from an Video Camera which recorded or atleast was transfered to an VHS tape.
    Quote Quote  
  11. I got Real PAL VCR, My card doesnīt even Support Pal60 sadly.

    But everything is PAL, and i Always get the chroma fail.

    Would like more information though if the Merge Chroma does what the hardware is supposed to do, or if itīs some old bypass thing if the hardware canīt handle it correctly.

    Thanks
    Quote Quote  
  12. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Wait so in the end you just blur the lines?
    Yes, but only the chroma. There is no loss of sharpness in the luma. I think this will work better:

    MergeChroma(last, SeparateFields(last).BilinearResize(width,height/4).BilinearResize(width,height/2).Weave())

    There may be a better way around this but I don't yet well enough understand how the PAL chroma works. Do you have any clean (without field blending artifacts) clips?
    Quote Quote  
  13. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    As I understand it now, those are Hanover Bars.

    When I go to the bar I get hangover too
    Quote Quote  
  14. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    With the discussion about the Hanover Bars I am probably wide of the mark here but I will still ask.

    Is EVERY tape you have tried to capture showing this problem or only these from the samples. I just wonder, assuming that these are, as you say, pure PAL, poor conversions and with that in mind the problem is burnt in to the tape and nothing can then be done.

    I have captured many, many PAL VHS from all over Europe. Used many different capture cards over the years and I simply can not remember ever having this problem.

    But if you are considering a new card, if you are adamant that is the problem, what is your budget ?
    Quote Quote  
  15. Here is a Clip, itīs from a Video Camera, Being transfered to a VCR Tape (if it wasnīt on it before). Donīt remember, maybe you guys know how the old film camera works?

    Either way, itīs PAL, not field blend or convertion from NTSC at all.


    DB83, I get it on Tapes, DVD, Xbox, PS2, on Every PAL system possible, Always, belive me, itīs PAL not working, either that or i have messed up my entire connection or settings in a way i donīt even know was possible.

    And yes, My budget is well, Depends on what the Card is capable of, so please tell show me.

    and DB83, do you have anything PAL that you can give me a Sample of?
    Anything will do, Game Console would be awesome or DVD as itīs very clean compared to VCR, but anything will do.
    Image Attached Files
    Quote Quote  
  16. The script I gave in post #12 works better on Tape.avi since it keeps the fields separated. Pairs of lines (in one field) contain the same colors but with an opposite phase shift. The true color is in the middle of the two. In theory one should average a pair of lines together then use those values for both lines (I don't know of an AviSynth resize filter that does this). But I suspect that will leave blocky (2x2) color artifacts. So using a BilinearResize() will probably looks a little better though it's technically not quite right. Since the PAL signal really only contains one line of chroma information for each pair of scanlines (albeit supplied as two lines of chroma with opposite phase shifts) you aren't really losing significant vertical color resolution by blurring pairs of lines together.
    Quote Quote  
  17. But what is the idea, is it supposed to just Ignore every other Chroma Line?
    As i mean, i canīt see any purpose if it working like this.
    I read it was something about getting over the NTSC problem with Hue (whatever that was).
    And PAL works better with motion, but had less saturation by a small bit.
    Quote Quote  
  18. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    But what is the idea, is it supposed to just Ignore every other Chroma Line?
    No, the idea is that the average of the two lines is the correct value to display for both lines. In old fashioned TVs they relied on the human eye to blur the colors together (viewed from far away you can't resolve the hanover bars). Newer TVs added an explicit blur function to blur the chroma from pairs of lines together, and display those colors for both scan lines. Having two signals with opposite phase shifts is supposed to help keep the colors right (though I don't understand exactly how at this point). A problem that creates an positive error in one creates a negative error in the other -- so the errors cancel each other out.
    Quote Quote  
  19. So itīs supposed to be like this?
    Just seems abnormal, why canīt they just have True Chroma all the way?
    I know it had something to do with overcoming the NTSC failure, though it donīt really know what.

    But so in the end you just need to blur it;S?
    And why do you need to resize with Billinear, isnīt there a way so choose every other line more efficiently?

    Thanks
    Quote Quote  
  20. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    But so in the end you just need to blur it;S?
    Yes. But...

    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    And why do you need to resize with Billinear, isnīt there a way so choose every other line more efficiently?
    It's supposed to be done by simply averaging the two. But I don't know of any filter in AviSynth that does that. So I used Bilinear as that's the closest approximation. Mabye Bilinear for downsizing and Bicubic for upsizing will work ok. Ie, won't create oversharpening artifacts.

    Averaging the two doesn't really blur the colors. They are the same color to start with. For example:
    100 and 100 averaged together is 100. If each has an opposite phase shift: 100+10 and 100-10, and you average them together the result is still 100 ((110 + 90) / 2). So the blurring happens at the transmission, not at the capture/display. This is similar to the 4:2:0 chroma subsampling used in MPEG family codecs. Just in the analog domain, not digital.
    Last edited by jagabo; 27th Feb 2012 at 14:11.
    Quote Quote  
  21. The kernel thing doesnīt tell me anything sadly, but do you know the idea behind it?
    Maybe itīs possible to create it with a Function?

    As i would like it to work Ideal without creating artifacts, and i am probably not alone.

    Will try to do some searching
    Quote Quote  
  22. Ehm, i donīt really get it now, how is it supposed to happen during the transmission?
    As i get the hanover bars during capture, which is after the transmission.
    Quote Quote  
  23. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    I would not have thought there are too many settings on that capture card. There are some variants of PAL but I hardly see those making any difference.

    Here is a link to something I made some time ago (the arrow at the end was added by me)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HOmtVAFEGs&feature=related

    This would have been VHS >> DV with the Canopus ADVC. (I have my hard hat on for all the shouts what could be wrong with it)

    If the YT conversion does not help I will do a fresh capture of something else but use the Hauppuage instead. Take a little more time to set that up.
    Quote Quote  
  24. Sadly the Youtube wonīt help as itīs converted to YV12 and will not have the problem, or atleast we canīt see it.
    It must be YUY2.

    But from what i can understand, itīs supposed to be like i have it. Though i donīt know it the card is supposed to blur it for you correctly or the VCR(or other system)

    So please upload a sample with the Hauppuage if you can

    EDIT:

    Jagabo does this do something along the line that you want?

    Code:
    clip = SeparateFields()
     even = clip.SelectEven().assumeframebased
     odd = clip.SelectOdd().assumeframebased
    
     even1 = even.SeparateFields.SelectEven()
     odd1 = even.SeparateFields.SelectOdd()
     clip_even1 = MergeChroma(even1, odd1, 0.5)
     clip_odd1 = MergeChroma(odd1, even1, 0.5)
     out1 = Interleave(clip_odd1,clip_even1).weave
    
     even2 = odd.SeparateFields.SelectEven()
     odd2 = odd.SeparateFields.SelectOdd()
     clip_even2 = MergeChroma(even2, odd2, 0.5)
     clip_odd2 = MergeChroma(odd2, even2, 0.5)
     out2 = Interleave(clip_odd2, clip_even2).weave
    
     interleave(out1,out2)
     assumefieldbased()
     weave()
    Quote Quote  
  25. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Ehm, i donīt really get it now, how is it supposed to happen during the transmission?
    As i get the hanover bars during capture, which is after the transmission.
    The reduction of vertical color resolution happens before the transmission. The hanover bars are in the PAL signal. That's why you see them in all analog PAL caps.
    Quote Quote  
  26. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Jagabo does this do something along the line that you want?

    Code:
    clip = SeparateFields()
     even = clip.SelectEven().assumeframebased
     odd = clip.SelectOdd().assumeframebased
    
     even1 = even.SeparateFields.SelectEven()
     odd1 = even.SeparateFields.SelectOdd()
     clip_even1 = MergeChroma(even1, odd1, 0.5)
     clip_odd1 = MergeChroma(odd1, even1, 0.5)
     out1 = Interleave(clip_odd1,clip_even1).weave
    
     even2 = odd.SeparateFields.SelectEven()
     odd2 = odd.SeparateFields.SelectOdd()
     clip_even2 = MergeChroma(even2, odd2, 0.5)
     clip_odd2 = MergeChroma(odd2, even2, 0.5)
     out2 = Interleave(clip_odd2, clip_even2).weave
    
     interleave(out1,out2)
     assumefieldbased()
     weave()
    I think that's the right idea. But I think there's something not quite right with the script. I'll have to take a closer look.
    Quote Quote  
  27. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    But do my eyes deceive me when I do not see them ?

    Maybe the ADVC is making some internal adjustment ?
    Quote Quote  
  28. Ah, of course, now i know what you mean

    Maybe?
    Quote Quote  
  29. Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    But do my eyes deceive me when I do not see them ?
    You don't see them in zerowalker's samples?
    Click image for larger version

Name:	hanover.png
Views:	387
Size:	1.10 MB
ID:	11186
    Last edited by jagabo; 27th Feb 2012 at 14:58.
    Quote Quote  
  30. Got an answer on the QTGMC thread.

    MergeChroma(SeparateFields().Blur(0,1).Weave())

    Is this correct?
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads

Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!