What is the best way to treat Telecine before Temporal Smoothing?

[unclescoob]

And so you decided not to be sarcastic after all. Is this what your point is, David?

You fanboys really make me laugh sometimes.

[jagabo]

People are providing those AviSynth filters and scripts for free. Just be grateful they're available.

[unclescoob]

You know, all things considered, I think it would be more beneficial if some of these filters actually became patented, stabilized, and possible for all to use (yes, marketed, in other words). I wouldn't mind paying for something that's worth it if it saves me a ton of aggravation.

[unclescoob]

After all, street cats are also free and solve your mouse problem. But then you have to get rid of the street cat.

[Gavino]

I started with the basic documentation with AVIsynth, worked through it, and have always got on fine. It taught me all these things, and quite quickly too - what I mean is, there wasn't much reading involved.

But that was years ago. It's moved to the mediawiki since then. That Basic Documentation is still linked and, though it's a good start...
http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page#Usage
...it's now out of date in some ways. More importantly, it seems to be in a different order than I remember it, and so it doesn't easily explain all these issues before throwing you at external filters. The syntax and FAQ sections further down the page do better, but it's too late by then.

The installed documentation (default location C:\Program Files\Avisynth 2.5\Docs\English\index.htm) is still organised more or less in the old way, although slightly changed between v2.57 and v2.58. Individual sections are kept up to date at each release by incorporating changes from the wiki.

[chowmein]

I think Unclescoob's complaint is about specific functions & stuff, not "how to use avisynth". And I agree. MCTemporalDenoise is a fantastic processor but there's so many 3rd-party requirements & stuff, each of which keep updating themselves & sometimes making themselves incompatible with the function that requires them. The creator of a function SHOULD provide - and continually update - the "required filters folder". Doom9 is a mess when it comes to a newbie coming there to learn stuff. Plus most of the regulars there are real snobs.

[jagabo]

MCTemporalDenoise is a fantastic processor but there's so many 3rd-party requirements & stuff, each of which keep updating themselves & sometimes making themselves incompatible with the function that requires them. The creator of a function SHOULD provide - and continually update - the "required filters folder".

They provide a list of all the required filters and version numbers, and an all-in-one installer:
http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/MCTemporalDenoise#Required_Filters

[chowmein]

MCTemporalDenoise is a fantastic processor but there's so many 3rd-party requirements & stuff, each of which keep updating themselves & sometimes making themselves incompatible with the function that requires them. The creator of a function SHOULD provide - and continually update - the "required filters folder".

They provide a list of all the required filters and version numbers, and an all-in-one installer:
http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/MCTemporalDenoise#Required_Filters

My apologies, I wasn't aware.

[jagabo]

I agree that it's a pain keeping up with all the filter versions. That's why I tend not to update very often.

[unclescoob]

Can the mod change the name of this thread to "trouble installing McTemoralDenoise"? I think it better suits it, considering the direction that this discussion is taking. Now, as I stated earlier: My trouble is that when I try to open my script, I'm getting the "cannot find fft3d.dll" error message. I have placed this in my System32 folder (in my c drive) many, MANY times. And when I say this, I don't mean that I keep placing copies of the dll in the folder (not that it would allow me to anyway). I have deleted it, copied it, deleted it, re-copied it, etc. You get the point. Isn't the 2004 version the current one? I have Windows 7, 32 bit. I have even used the one in the link provided by sanlyn. Nothing. Zip. Zero.

And by the way, just when I was starting to think I was a dumbass, apparently alot of other folks are experiencing the same trouble with this dll file. So in turn, what I am looking for is a substitute for McTemporalDenoise. Something that, maybe isn't exactly like MCTemporal, but close enough.. Perhaps a combination of some good denoisers at humble settings would work? For example, Ttempsmooth is great, but leaves some ghosting on my dark backgrounds. TemporalSoften works very well, but I find that it thins out fine lines (note I'm working with a cartoon). Any suggestions? What denoisers do you guys use for animation which will help kill noise, but not your details?

Filters that come to mind are deen (but that doesn't seem very good), pixiedust, spacedust, angeldust (whoops, sorry that's another party LOL), and TemporalCleaner (although it leaves horrible trails)

[chowmein]

"cannot find fft3d.dll" ahh I think that's where you're stuck. What exactly do you have in there? Download this and pop "libfftw3-3.dll" in your System32 folder (at least that's what I think it's called in Win7 32???).

[chowmein]

(excuse me though, I recently reinstalled my Windows XP and don't have any avisynth installed atm, but I will go ahead & do it myself if you still have problems)...

[unclescoob]

Thanks chowmein. I'll do this tonight when I get home. So, any denoiser suggestions?

[jagabo]

I have both libfftw3f-3.dll and fftw3.dll in my system32 (of syswow64) folder. I don't think the former is used by MCTD. But I can't check right now because I have a big render running.

[sanlyn]

My trouble is that when I try to open my script, I'm getting the "cannot find fft3d.dll" error message.

fft3d.dll can't be found because it doesn't exist. Neither MCTemporalDenoise nor FFT3D use a dll by that name.

What denoisers do you guys use for animation which will help kill noise, but not your details?

MCTEmporalDenoise and TemporalDegrain are among the most popular. But there are many others, shown here (with many very good samples):
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech3/post-qual.html

Filters that come to mind are deen (but that doesn't seem very good), pixiedust, spacedust, angeldust (whoops, sorry that's another party LOL), and TemporalCleaner (although it leaves horrible trails)

TemporalCleaner has many parameters, works in YUY2, and the clip does not work properly with interlaced/telecined video.

[sanlyn]

I have both libfftw3f-3.dll and fftw3.dll in my system32 (of syswow64) folder. I don't think the former is used by MCTD. But I can't check right now because I have a big render running.

I was curious about whether MCTD or FFT3D needed libfftw3f-3.dll, so I removed it from System32 and ran an MCTD script. No errors appeared. But I don't know what other plugins might use it, so I replaced it in System32.

It takes about 20 seconds for MCTD to load on my PC's. TemporalDeGrain is another slow mover. The latter also uses FFT3D. It ran without libfftw3f-3.dll.

[jagabo]

Yes, I verified that libfftw3f-3.dll is not used by MCTD. I don't remember which filter uses it.

[sanlyn]

I see where some of v.c. mohan's plugins require libfftw3f-3.dll, shown here. There are probably others. It must be used by something else, or I wouldn't have loaded it into my system years back unless directed to do it.

I dunno, maybe Windows 7 wants it. I hate Windows 7.

[2Bdecided]

The installed documentation (default location C:\Program Files\Avisynth 2.5\Docs\English\index.htm) is still organised more or less in the old way, although slightly changed between v2.57 and v2.58.

What I can't find, though I must have learned it from somewhere (or maybe already knew it from other programming) is the relationship between a script and a function.

This basic thing seems to trip so many people up. They have AVIsource("myvideo.avi") and then copy in the entire function they want to use after it. Which of course doesn't work!

Hint to the confused: put the entire function somewhere else (at the end of the script, or as a functionname.avsi file in the plugins folder) and just call the function after AVIsource, i.e. using functionname().

When someone provides you with a function, and you put it somewhere that AVIsynth can find it, this tells AVIsynth that when you put functionname() in a script, it should use the function. It won't use it unless you do. It won't use it even if you copy the whole ******* function into your script.


If someone can write that in sensible English and put it somewhere in the instructions, I think we'll have more happy people.

Cheers,
David.

[2Bdecided]

You know, all things considered, I think it would be more beneficial if some of these filters actually became patented, stabilized, and possible for all to use (yes, marketed, in other words). I wouldn't mind paying for something that's worth it if it saves me a ton of aggravation.

You can't patent something once it's public.

You can always pay someone to use AVIsynth for you.

You're missing the point though: this is a hobby.

You're free to seek out the profession solutions if you want.


It's like someone has given you a fishing rod for free, and you're getting mad at them because they didn't drive you to a river and teach you how to fish.

Cheers,
David.

[unclescoob]

David, would you like to make some money? I'd like to pay you one thousand dollars per episode you work on for me.

[unclescoob]

Sanlyn, quick question: This method you have, separating fields...does this ensure that ghosting/blurring is avoided before using the temporal filtration?

[sanlyn]

No. If you get ghosting from temporal smoothers, you have to adjust the settings. If low settings don't do the job to your satisfaction, try running the smoother two or three times in a row at gentle settings. I did that in the earlier script for the your 'toon a few posts back. Any temporal smoother will ghost if set strong enough on motion scenes. I don 't always use this method; some smoothers work OK on interlaced video, some don't. I've also deinterlaced a video in script, run some plugins, then restored interlace before saving.

SeparateFields() is used for many procedures, not just for denosiing.

[jagabo]

Sanlyn, quick question: This method you have, separating fields...does this ensure that ghosting/blurring is avoided before using the temporal filtration?

No.

[Gavino]

What I can't find, though I must have learned it from somewhere (or maybe already knew it from other programming) is the relationship between a script and a function.

The link I gave in post #24, also available in the installed documentation (see 'User defined script functions' in the left-hand index pane), says this:

From http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/User_defined_script_functions

An user defined script function is an independent block of script code that is executed each time a call to the function is made in the script.

Maybe for the uninitiated it needs to go further and spell out just what 'calling' the function means (although really it's no different from calling an internal function/filter, a concept that is introduced right at the start).

[jagabo]

The installed documentation (default location C:\Program Files\Avisynth 2.5\Docs\English\index.htm) is still organised more or less in the old way, although slightly changed between v2.57 and v2.58.

What I can't find, though I must have learned it from somewhere (or maybe already knew it from other programming) is the relationship between a script and a function.

A script is the text file that controls what happens in AviSynth. A function is a piece of code, be it a dll or script, that when called performs a... function. Ie, given some input(s) it produces some output(s).

[unclescoob]

I just TIVTC before applying any denoisers. I do not separate fields and weave them back. Am I missing out on something by not doing this?

[sanlyn]

Sanlyn, quick question: This method you have, separating fields...does this ensure that ghosting/blurring is avoided before using the temporal filtration?

No. Just about all temporal smoothers will ghost/trail if the settings are too strong. If using lower settings doesn't clean as well as you'd like, try using low settings and run the smoother more than once. I did that with your 'toon posted a while back.

[poisondeathray]

I just TIVTC before applying any denoisers. I do not separate fields and weave them back. Am I missing out on something by not doing this?

Not missing anything

Assuming it's telecined content to begin with , once you IVTC, you have progressive frames now - so there is no need to separate fields

[jagabo]

I just TIVTC before applying any denoisers. I do not separate fields and weave them back. Am I missing out on something by not doing this?

You can't IVTC true interlaced (ie, non film based) material.