Audio/Mic problem during filming, need a solution..

[sdsumike619]

In shooting some music educational videos, I've run into a problem. From my mixer, I go into channel 1 of the camera with a musical instrument, and channel 2 with the microphone (mixer channels are panned left and right). I'm using a RODE NTG-1 which is mounted on a stand above and in front of the subject for his voice. What I have to do is unplug one of the speakers while the mic is on otherwise I get that awful feedback sound. This is OK as long as it's just the mic and the instrument. However, sometimes I have to also play an audio backing track. So what we have to do is stop the video camera, turn off the phantom power to the mic, and plug the speaker back in so the subject can hear the track playing (which is on the same channel as the mic). After the music is done playing, I unplug the speaker and power up the mic again. This gets annoying.

What are my options for solutions? Different mic? Different mixer that allows me to have diff mixes? Thanks in advance!

[edDV]

In shooting some music educational videos, I've run into a problem. From my mixer, I go into channel 1 of the camera with a musical instrument, and channel 2 with the microphone (mixer channels are panned left and right). I'm using a RODE NTG-1 which is mounted on a stand above and in front of the subject for his voice. What I have to do is unplug one of the speakers while the mic is on otherwise I get that awful feedback sound. This is OK as long as it's just the mic and the instrument. However, sometimes I have to also play an audio backing track. So what we have to do is stop the video camera, turn off the phantom power to the mic, and plug the speaker back in so the subject can hear the track playing (which is on the same channel as the mic). After the music is done playing, I unplug the speaker and power up the mic again. This gets annoying.

What are my options for solutions? Different mic? Different mixer that allows me to have diff mixes? Thanks in advance!

Start with which model camcorder are you using? Is the mixer on the camera? How is the Rode NTG-1 connected?

Explain more about playing the "audio backing track" and the speaker. Is this off the camcorder while recording?

Is the "subject" using headphones? If not, why not?

[edDV]

Explain what you are doing relative to this YouTube single NTG mic clip. Note in this clip it would have been better to mic the singer and guitar separately to achieve a better mix (too much pick noise). A four channel camcorder would make this easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIlkAweOC_k

[Cornucopia]

Or record double system with something like a Zoom H2, H4...

Yes, more info, please.

Scott

[sdsumike619]

Currently using a Panasonic DVC-80, but switching to Canon XA10 very soon.

Yes, the backing track is a MIDI file, played through an audio rack, main from mixer goes to camera, monitor goes to speakers for player to hear, same with his instrument.

He is not using headphones (does not want to)

The guitar is not (purposely) mic'd. The guitar goes directly into the audio rack. But yes, the RODE mic picks up the pick noise loud and clear. I came to the conclusion that the mic is always going to hear the guitar no matter what simply because it's making sound and it's close to where his voice originates. Is there any possible way for the mic not to pick up the guitar? That's not the biggest problem, I can halfway deal with that. The bigger problem is my workaround for the feedback issue... How much $$$ are 4 channel cams, I didn't even know they exist.

[sdsumike619]

I talked to B&H, I think the solution will be a new mixer. The Allen&Heath ZED with fx should do the job nicely

[Cornucopia]

Before you go buying anything, I suggest you tell us a little more about your setup...

What is the model of your mixer?
What is in the shot when you shoot?
What is the guitarist's problem with headphones?
What's your budget?
What are you trying to show/evoke with the recording (purpose)?
What kind of venue are you in? Does this change?

I have a NUMBER of ideas that should greatly help, but can't do it with the minimal info.

Scott

[sdsumike619]

What is the model of your mixer? Alesis Multimix 6fx
What is in the shot when you shoot? a guitar player sitting on a chair
What is the guitarist's problem with headphones? He doesn't want to wear headphones in the video, it's not gonna happen
What's your budget? Best fix at the lowest price of course.
What are you trying to show/evoke with the recording (purpose)? educational video
What kind of venue are you in? Does this change? in a small room, this doesn't change.

I do want to get the mixer whatever the solution is. There are other things I don't like about this mixer and it's time for a new one. As long as the RODE mic's output doesn't go to my monitor speakers, then I'll be fine, and the ZED will allow me to route signals as I need to.

I'll be using the Canon XA10 for the main shot and my old Panasonic DVC-80 for a 2nd angle PIP

[edDV]

Feedback can be controlled by keeping the musician monitor (aka foldback monitor) out of (usually behind) the directional mic pattern. Usually this means the mic is boom mounted close to the singer with the monitor speaker back from the mic. Headphones (or earpiece) provide complete isolation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foldback_%28sound_engineering%29

When you record a singer and guitar with a single mic, you won't have ability to separately control volume and/or equalization in post. This must be done with mic placement to balance the singer vs guitar. A separate mic (or two) on the guitar recorded to a separate audio track(s) gives more flexibility in post. In this case the voice mic must be placed to emphasize the singer over guitar (e.g. closely placed) while the guitar mic is pointed away from the singer and monitor speaker. Pick noise is reduced by pointing the guitar mic away from the pick or on the guitar. See mic placements here.
http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html

It should be possible to play the midi track separate from the camcorder so the camcorder can record voice and guitar tracks.

[edDV]

I'll be using the Canon XA10 for the main shot and my old Panasonic DVC-80 for a 2nd angle PIP

That gives you four audio tracks to work with.

I talked to B&H, I think the solution will be a new mixer. The Allen&Heath ZED with fx should do the job nicely

How do you propose to configure that? You can get good results with what you have. For example,

XA10 Track 1 - NTG-1 Voice (I'm assuming the XA10 has phantom power here).

XA10 Track 2 - XY Guitar mics mixed to mono in the Alesis Multimix 6fx.

In most markets, mics and mixers can be rented for the shoot. Go with quality mics.

[Cornucopia]

Look, there's doing it right and there's doing it right.

If your guitartist WILL NOT EVER use headphones, and you are doing this as single takes and have him/her in the shot, it is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid some amount of feedback.

Pros do avoid this by using an IFB (internal foldback devices, aka in-ear-phones), headphones or by not needing/wanting ANY foldback. Or by overdubbing & syncing afterward (a MUCH more problematic scenario).

So how can you minimize leakage & feedback?

Use a directional mike and bring it REAL CLOSE to the artist. A cardioid (unidirectional), placed BELOW the mouth but pointed upwards TO the mouth will exhibit rejection (low sensitivity) at its rear end. This is presumably where the guitar (and hopefully the FB monitor would be).
A Bi-directional mike could also be used, placing it out from the mouth but even with it. Since Bi-directional mikes have low sensitivity on their perpendicular (side) lobes, this would also reject the guitar/FB amp sound.
Note that for real musician shows/concerts/demonstrations, it is NOT unprofessional to have a mike stand/boom in the shot.

Also, remembering that sound sensitivity decreases with the square of its distance, you should bring the mike AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to the mouth of the artist (without getting too much proximity effect bass boost, or lipsmack/breathing noise), while making it as FAR as possible from the unwanted audio.. Always use a pop filter on the mike, also.

Then, minmize the leakage by making the sound of the guitar/FB monitor as QUIET as possible (while still allowing the artist to hear what they need to).

I agree with edDV, 4 separate on-cam recordable tracks to work with give you a better situation:
1. Vocal
2. Guitar direct-in (w/pre-amp)
3. Midi render in

The Alesis MUST knock that down to 2 outputs, so it would be a hindrance (you'd have to pre-mix something...).
The A&H ZED that you're contemplating would be more inputs, but doesn't seem to have MORE OUTPUTs...
Instead of a 6ix2o or a 10x2, how about a 8x4 type mixer?

Scott

[turk690]

Faced with situations like this has made me get a Zoom R16 and I have never looked back. 8 simultaneous tracks can be recorded or played back on this mixer/recorder (each track independently record or playback). The Rode NTG-1 is a shotgun microphone and will be very sensitive such that it will pick up the vocals, the guitar, and the monitor, me imagining the way it's focused on the scene as sdsumike619 describes it. Since the microphone will necessarily be close to the artist's mouth, IMHO the shotgun is not the way to go about it.
What I'd do is
1. Use two ancient Shure 16A mics I have, arranged in XY, plugged into two tracks (set to record, trk 1 & 2) of the R16, and aimed about 6" away from the guitar pick,
2. Shure SM58 on another track (set to record mode, trk 3) on the R16 aimed a few inches from the artist's mouth,
3. Midi track/s converted to *.MP3 or *.WAV, previously put on the SD card in the R16 and assigned a playback track/s (trk 4, etc.),
4. Tracks 1, 2, 3 on R16 fader all the way down, trk 4, etc backing tracks fader adj for monitor speakers
5. Monitor speakers low volume facing the artist (same direction as mics) maybe a meter or more away.
6. Audio on the Canon XA10 are internal mics; later to be used just for syncing on post.

All the mics here just pick up their intended targets with very little bleed (<30dB), with ample room to adjust for in post; monitor speakers are distinctly heard but NOT picked up at all by mics as well. Of course the mics will be in the video. But you can't have everything.

[sdsumike619]

I will be perfectly honest here. The last 3 posts, while very informative I'm sure, went about 10 feet over my head =(
One thing I can say for certain is that the second camera will only be recording audio with the camera's internal mic and only for the purpose of syncing the video up in the NLE. Audio from that 2nd camera won't be used for any other purpose.

I'm trying to keep everything as simple as possible here, I'm not shooting a Hollywood epic, just some instructional videos, just trying to improve the situation a little, i.e. not have the microphone going out to the monitor speakers so I can avoid the feedback, and having to plug and unplug the speaker every time to make a change. I like the Rode mic, it sounds good, and there's no rubbing noises that I used to get with the lav mics.

[edDV]

Well the 4th up addressed your issues directly using the equipment you have.

I'm trying to keep everything as simple as possible here

You have the equipment to do it right. You just need to rent one or two guitar mics.

[sdsumike619]

We don't mic the guitar, it goes directly though the audio system, and into the camera from the left channel of the mixer. The only mic'd portion of the guitar that we get is what is picked up by the RODE. What you said in the 4th post is basically what we have, except the guitar is direct, not mic'd. And in order to prohibit the feedback, I have to unplug the input to the speaker in the monitor mix.

[edDV]

You need to use the directionality of the Rode to hide the monitor speaker. As said above limit the volume to minimal or use earpiece..

[turk690]

We don't mic the guitar, it goes directly though the audio system, and into the camera from the left channel of the mixer. The only mic'd portion of the guitar that we get is what is picked up by the RODE. What you said in the 4th post is basically what we have, except the guitar is direct, not mic'd. And in order to prohibit the feedback, I have to unplug the input to the speaker in the monitor mix.

It's obvious that you love your Rode that much and have to use it come what may. But a shotgun is not the ideal microphone type to use in the situation you are presenting. You do see you are rolling in waves of despicable feedback because of this. Take a cheap Shure PG-48 and snuggle it near the artist's mouth instead. Not only will it not pick the guitar, I bet all feedback will be gone.