901102 - best VCD quality

[hamidi2]

hi
i want to convert from TS to VCD and have the best possible VCD format quality.
what's the best choice for this purpose?
thx

[jagabo]

TMPGEnc Free.

[hamidi2]

thank u, but it says:
Freeware MPEG1(VCD) encoding but MPEG2 encoding is trialware(buy TMPGEnc Plus).
does it mean that just making an mpeg2 video must be done by paying for it? and mpeg1 encoding from mpeg2 must not be paid for?
then, does it provide the best possible quality or it's just an encoder from some?
i also like it to be fast.
thx

[jagabo]

VCD is MPEG 1 only. TMPGEnc was considered one of the best VCD encoders.

[Cornucopia]

Right - it says MPEG2 encoding is trialware. But you don't have to worry about that because VCD is ONLY Mpeg1 (and freeware).

Once you've encoded to mpeg1, if you really are looking for a VCD, you'll still have to author it.
I used to always recommend VCDEasy (freeware and payware versions available), but it's becoming difficult to work with in Vista/Win7 (as is probably ANY vcd auhtoring app).

Scott

[hamidi2]

indeed i need a method to decrease the size and keep quality. i tried OGV. it seems that it may be a good choice. but i think the converter (OGG Video Converter or Movavi Video Converter) cause frame lost and i don't want it to happen.

[Cornucopia]

You said VCD. Do you really want VCD? If so, the tools jagabo and I suggested are probably the best way to get there.

If all you want to do is "decrease the size and keep quality", then using the x264 encoder (and any of the gui convertes based on it) is the best way to go. However, anytime you're decreasing the filesize without also trimming the time, you're doing so by decreasing the bitrate. When you decrease the bitrate, quality usually goes down. Since the h264 codec is the most efficient codec, it might help to alleviate the loss.

Scott

[hamidi2]

I've a dreambox which plays only mpeg1 and mpeg2. so when i want to watch what i've saved i need a conversion to VCD or SVCD. but i also need a format for archiving which is not necessarily VCD. i prefer this one to be as less lose as possible and still decrease the file size.
about the x264 encoder, what GUI is better to use? i'm not easy with command line. is it possible to make TMPGEnc use the encoder?
thx

[jagabo]

TMPGEnc could be used to output AVI with h.264 using x264vfw. But that's generally not recommended. I don't know which of the x264 front ends is everyone's favorite these days. Handbrake, xvid4psp, megui, mediacoder...

[Computer Nerd Kev]

VCD (Video CD) was the precursor to DVD Video. It was a standard for CD discs containing MPEG 1 video data playable with VCD players.

Unless I'm mistaken, your "Dreambox" is incapable of reading CDs so following the strict standards of VCD video is pointless. If you intend to put your video files on a memory card for playback, then I would recommend you forget about VCD and simply get a basic video converter (TMPGEnc or any of the many ffMPEG GUIs should work fine along with most other video converters), and encode your video in MPEG 1 or MPEG 2 format at settings which suit your preferred quality.

For archiving, if you don't mind some technical loss to the image quality, any video format will do at a high enough bitrate for quality loss not to be noticeable, you could use MPEG 1 (or MPEG 2) for this and use it for playback also on your "Dreambox" device, thus saving you a second encode if your memory card is big enough for the larger files.

Encoders such as Huffyuv (which can be encoded by ffMPEG) compress video losslessly, so you get out identical video to that you put in but at a lower file size, so this is the best archival option, but it won't work on your "Dreambox".

[Cornucopia]

My guess is the OP is referring not to "Dreambox", but to "Dreamcast" (Sega's), which used the GD-ROM disc format (aka DD-CD, an interim version between CD and DVD at 1.3GB per disc). GD-ROM drives are ALWAYS able to read CD discs (which likely includes WhiteBook as well as RedBook, YellowBook & OrangeBook).

So, I wouldn't be at all surprised to know that he CAN work with VCD/SVCDs.

What I said before still holds...

Scott

[jagabo]

Encoders such as Huffyuv (which can be encoded by ffMPEG) compress video losslessly, so you get out identical video to that you put in but at a lower file size

Note this is only true if your source is uncompressed. Starting with a TS file you will end up with a much larger file if you use a lossless codec.

[hamidi2]

hmm, technical men here and i'm going to find my way between. i think i'm a bit confused.
VCD as the target format is not essential at all. i just talked about VCD format because i thought it might be an acceptable format for archiving because it reduces size and it's straightforward for playing back into dreambox. i don't mean dreamcast:
http://www.i-have-a-dreambox.com
this device is capable of playing back mpeg1 and mpeg2. i don't mind archiving in another format though, like xvid, ogv, avi or anything else that this device is not capable of playing back. after archiving i'll be able to convert what i need to watch later to mpeg and see. it's important that the file be "as low as possible in size and as much as possible in quality".
i tried x264 command line encoder. it produced a 523MB file. vlc can't play it back. this is not a good news. i prefer more familiar formats. the size is also not as low as i need. Movavi Video Converter produced a 257MB OGV file. size is acceptable. but quality is a bit lower than what i expect. besides, it's not free and contains watermark. i tried Avidemux to produce an OGM output. but the size is 837MB! i wonder the same format how can have such a different value in size! Avidemux produces a 757MB output Xvid. standard VCD format size is 400MB which is lower in quality than what movavi produced and higher in size. OGG Video Converter has produced a 483MB file with a very good quality.
between choosing tools/ formats/ settings for the format i don't know what to do!

[jagabo]

file size = bitrate * running time

If you want a smaller file use a lower bitrate. If you didn't set any parameters on the x264 command line you didn't get an optimal file. You should use one of the front ends for x264. The names of several free versions (and links) have been given already.

Basically, VCD is one of the worst possible formats.

[hamidi2]

ok. if u think x264 should be my choice, i'm going to concentrate on the front ends.
which one is the most efficient and simpler to handle?
what parameters affect on quality/size other than bitrate?
thx.

[Cornucopia]

As was mentioned, the ONLY thing that affects filesize is running time & bitrate.
What affects QUALITY is a combination of:

1. Image complexity (both detail & contrast within the single frame, and complexity of motion between frames)
2. Resolution
3. Bit budget (# bits per pixel) - somewhat affected by bitrate
4. Encoder efficiency (e.g. h264 > Xvid/Divx/Wmv > mpeg2 > mpeg1)

Front end GUIs have already been suggested; try them out and decide for yourself!

Scott

[hamidi2]

thank u for such a good assistance.
i've avidemux installed on my system. but i prefer to use MeGUI for this purpose. is it a good idea? or it doesn't differ to use what x264 front end to use and they all produce the same output because they all use the same encoder? (first question)
then, after installing MeGUI, it requested some updates as well as Avisynth. i installed Avisynth and let it update components. it then asked for neroaacenc 1.5.4.0. i downloaded it and have it now on my HDD. but it contains three tools in .exe format none of which is an installer. what i must do next for MeGUI to recognize that they're existing and may use them? (second question)
thx

[Computer Nerd Kev]

i've avidemux installed on my system. but i prefer to use MeGUI for this purpose. is it a good idea? or it doesn't differ to use what x264 front end to use and they all produce the same output because they all use the same encoder?

The only real difference between the output of different encoder front ends is what version of the encoder they use, so newly updated programs are best. However some may give you better control over the settings and output containers.

If anything MeGUI is probably a better tool for the job as it is more up to date with newer encoder releases, and is designed for encoding rather than editing.

then, after installing MeGUI, it requested some updates as well as Avisynth. i installed Avisynth and let it update components. it then asked for neroaacenc 1.5.4.0. i downloaded it and have it now on my HDD. but it contains three tools in .exe format none of which is an installer. what i must do next for MeGUI to recognize that they're existing and may use them?

look at the top comment on the VideoHelp Nero AAC Codec page here. However this encoder should only be required if you want to encode the audio in AAC format.

[hamidi2]

OMG! it created a 7.5GB MKV file!
i'm going to choose bitrate instead of quality and 100 instead of 1000

[Noahtuck]

best VCD quality

Isn't that kind of an Oxymoron ?!?!

Kind of like Jumbo Shrimp, Sweet Tart, Living Dead, A Little Pregnant ?!?!

LOL!!!

it kind of seem's like, how can i convert a bluray to cdr and keep bluray quality on a 60" tv ?

After all, it is 2012, not 1995

[hamidi2]

no, it's not! i got very good answers from experts in this forum. they introduced TMPGEnc to me and when i examined it i found that they're right. it gave me the best VCD quality i could get which i'd never experienced with any other tool, and i appreciate their replies. i know that i can't have the same quality as a bluray in a VCD, but i know that converters are not the same. some may give the best VCD quality and some may not!
everyone here comes to help, not to fool. now i'm waiting for the new output (with bitrate 100) and replies from the sympathetic professionals who has obliged to me until now.

[jagabo]

Noatuck was referring to the fact that VCD is one of the lowest quality formats, no matter how well it's converted. It uses a fixed frame size (352x288 PAL, 352x240 NTSC) and a fixed bitrate (1150 kbps) that is too low for most sources. Divx/Xvid in AVI, or x264 in MKV or MP4, will give you much better quality at the same file size.

Watch the two attached videos full screen. Which would you prefer to watch?

[hamidi2]

ok. thank u. i examined many things and decided at last to use Avidemux for editing (cutting) and converting to x264 format with "default" settings. for this purpose i've to choose MPEG-4 AVC for Video. i chose Copy for Audio but:
1. what's the best choice for Audio? (input is .TS from satellite)
2. what format i should choose? now i've chosen MKV. should it be AVI?
3. based on what u said before, may i infer that the attached files have nearly the same bitrate because their sizes are near to each others? is it right to say that with a given bitrate, x264 format gives a much better quality than VCD?
4. thank u for the attachments. unfortunately i'm at home now and have not enough bandwidth to download them. but i will do it at work ASAP.
5. i decided to forget MeGUI and use Avidemux instead. is it a good decision? won't i miss a benefit?
6. isn't it better to choose two pass settings for the x264 encoder? doesn't it give a better quality? what settings will give me the best quality?
thx

[jagabo]

1. what's the best choice for Audio? (input is .TS from satellite)

The audio is usually fairly small so I usually leave it unchanged. But you have to consider what devices you will use for playback. A Divx DVD player it probably wont' support AAC audio, for example.

2. what format i should choose? now i've chosen MKV. should it be AVI?

AVI isn't the best choice for h.264 video. Use MKV or MP4. Consider what other devices you may want to play your videos on. The PS3 doesn't support MKV, for example.

3. based on what u said before, may i infer that the attached files have nearly the same bitrate because their sizes are near to each others?

Yes.

is it right to say that with a given bitrate, x264 format gives a much better quality than VCD?

Yes. The MKV sample uses twice the frame size (704x480 vs 352x240) and looks much better than the VCD version, even though the file size (bitrate) is about the same.

5. i decided to forget MeGUI and use Avidemux instead. is it a good decision? won't i miss a benefit?

AviDemux has always been fairly unreliable for me. I don't really use meGUI so I can't say much about it.

6. isn't it better to choose two pass settings for the x264 encoder? doesn't it give a better quality? what settings will give me the best quality?

With 2-pass VBR encoding you know what the file size will be but you don't know what the quality will be (only that it's the best quality the encoder can deliver for that file size and the other settings you chose). With constant quality encoding (CRF in x264) you know what the quality will be but you don't know what the file size will be. When the two deliver the same file size the quality is the same.

Different videos will require different bitrates in order to maintain quality. See the videos in this post for example:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/295672-A-problem-for-video-experts?p=1811057&viewfu...=1#post1811057

[RabidDog]

Remember VCD was set in stone in 1992 (or decades ago) while x264 is much newer. Think how much computers in general have advanced since then. Back in the day, VCD and svcd (i did like svcd) were about all that Home computers could handle. Now? Fttt people cant wait for 4k super hi def to really put their 8 core CPU's to the test.

4k= 4 times the detail of blu-ray

[Cornucopia]

Good examples, jagabo!

Just tried 'em out on my kids' 8" tablet and even at that display size, the quality of the h.264 is NOTICEABLY better than the mpg1. Surprisingly, the mpg1is still decent/viewable at that size.

Scott

[hamidi2]

really thanks, i got what i was looking for. quality and size are the same as what i expected. the result with Avidemux is now a 264MB file which is OK.
i've no problem with Avidemux yet. i use version 2.5.6.
since i'm not going to playback the result file and just use it to keep the video in a safe place for whenever wanted to watch in my dreambox, it's not important to be playable or not in devices.
now the only remaining problem is how to convert them back to mpeg whenever want to watch them. the result preferred to be small in size and loseless in quality. i tried TMPGEnc to convert the MKV file to mpeg. but it doesn't recognize it. what may be the best method for converting?
thx

[jagabo]

now the only remaining problem is how to convert them back to mpeg whenever want to watch them.

You should not be performing multiple conversions. You lose quality each time you use a lossy codec. So your video is only going to get worse. Convert only once to the final video you want to keep and watch.

[hamidi2]

it's inevitable. certainly, when we want to watch a recorded movie or video, we do it by computer. but sometimes we like to watch a specific one in TV. in such a case, we've to use the dreambox for this purpose. since it doesn't support MKV, we've to convert it back to MPEG. the TV set is not LCD or LED. it's old. so the quality is not sensible. it's a temporary conversion for just a few days of watching something. it's still comparable to watch the movie in MPEG1 or MPEG2 by the TV. so i prefer a way to convert the archived MKV files into MPEG2.
i tried Avidemux and found that it's not a proper converter for this purpose. now i'm looking for a proper tool.
thx

[jagabo]

Get a media player like the Western Digital WDTV, Seagate FreeAgent Theater, etc. They can play MKV, MP4, AVI, MPG... files.