Capturing VHS - Advice appreciated

[sl74]

Apologies in advance for what is probably going to be a longish post.

I've a large collection of old VHS tapes - some over 20 years old - and I'm looking at capturing them onto the computer for the purpose of storing them on DVD. I've no plans to author any DVD's from the footage. Just store them for now. The tapes are mostly sport, but there's a mix of other stuff that I'd struggle to replace that I'd like to salvage - movies, TV shows, etc. Being in the UK, they are all in the PAL format.

I'm already in possession of a Hauppauge HD PVR, which i use to record from my Cable box. I've hooked it up to an old VCR and, while it works, the footage isn't of the best quality. It's also rather temperamental, halting recordings if there is any sort of jitter or break in the picture. And the whole process seems rather sluggish using it. It has a habit of freezing and needing to be turned off and back on again.

So I'm looking at another method. One that will give me better quality - not expecting miracles, some of the tapes have seen better days - as well as removing some of the footery problems I encountered with the PVR box. I've been reading through the forums and I've a rough idea of what I might need to do. I'm really just looking for reassurance that I'm on the right track, and guidance back onto it if I'm not. I've broken down my questions into three parts.

[Note : My computer is a Windows 7 machine, 4GB Ram, Gigabyte P35-DS3R Mobo, Q6600 processor and Radeon 5770 Hawk gfx card]

1. VCR. I have consumer LG model, which is decent for what it does. But from what I've read, having the correct VCR can make a huge difference. I've read the list of recommended models, but it can be difficult to find these higher end machines. Since a fair chunk of the tapes are recorded in long play, it would seem that the Panasonic machines would be better for me. Is that correct? Would the NV-HS1000 be a good choice? And what is the difference, if any, between this model and the NV-HS1000B. What sort of price would be fair for either of these? Anything else I should consider? Would the models on this list http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/1567-vcr-buying-guide.html still be accurate?

2. TBC. It seems one of these will be a must. Would the AVT-8710 do the job for me? And would I be better buying a TBC first and seeing the difference it makes to my current machine before investing in a new VCR? TBC's seem hard to come by in the UK? Is there any outlet that is recommended?

3. Lastly, the capture device. I like my Hauppauge PVR. It works well for what it does. But it would probably be more beneficial to capture the data uncompressed for editing purposes, then compress down once editing is complete. On the other hand, using it would save me money. Would a TBC help with the problems of it dropping out of the recording whenever some jittery/broken footage is encountered? And would I avoid this problem if I used a capture card, rather than one of these boxes? If I go the route of the capture card, what would be recommended, given that I'm using W7? I could perhaps throw together an XP machine from old parts if that would be more advantageous, but that would be a last resort.

Think that covers it. I don't mind paying the money for the proper equipment to do a good job with this. But I don't want to spend money on new equipment I don't need. Thoughts?

Thanks for reading.

[redwudz]

A TBC mostly corrects timing errors. It strips sync and generates new sync. That's because devices like VCRs don't often run at a steady speed. But it won't work wonders if you have other problems. Unfortunately, most all VCRs record/playback slightly different. The best VCR for playing back your tapes, especially LP tapes, is the original VCR in perfect condition. I know, not likely.

The Hauppauge device is one choice. Probably OK for your purposes. A bit higher up would be a DV capture device, especially if you need to do a lot of editing. I use a ADVC-100 and output from my VCR via FireWire to my PC in DV-AVI format. The big advantage is low quality loss and easy to edit video. The downside is large files, about 13.5GB/hour. I don't use a TBC, but they can help. Most of my VHS stuff is old video and not great quality. I have more problems with noise than speed/sync errors. A TBC most times won't help for me.

The older high end used VCRs can be hard to obtain, especially in good condition. Not really advised unless you can find a real bargain.

OK, I'll let the experts take over and correct me if needed.

And welcome to our forums.

[sanlyn]

2. TBC. It seems one of these will be a must. Would the AVT-8710 do the job for me? And would I be better buying a TBC first and seeing the difference it makes to my current machine before investing in a new VCR? TBC's seem hard to come by in the UK? Is there any outlet that is recommended?

Two reputable sources (UK versions of well-known U.S. vendors):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/PALM-SIZED-TIME-BASE-CORRECTOR/dp/B0015M48RS
http://www.markertek.co.uk/Catalog/Time-Base-Correctors-Frame-Synchronizers/AVT-8710

The AVT-8710 is a frame-level TBC. However, a line-level tbc would be more immediately useful for VHS capture, especially with the kind of tape aging and damage you describe. You don't mention which model Hauppauge PVR you have. I'm not that familiar with them myself even though I plan to buy one soon, but don't some of their models have built-in line-level TBC's? Another reader could contribute more precise info on this, but I recall reading that some of these Hauppauge models have a more stable tbc than others.

In any case, you're better off with a line-level tbc in circuit before the signal goes thru an AVT-8710 or similar frame-level tbc. The reason is that a line tbc corrects the timing of lines per frame, which is usually the major problem with tape and which is even more serious with old or damaged media. If you have a frame-level tbc in circuit before your device-with-line-tbc, the frame unit won't correct lines within frames but it will correct the frame output to such an extent that the line tbc won't detect timing errors, rendering the line tbc ineffective in most cases. So, in most of the posts I see concerning vhs capture, the majority of people seem to be using some sort of line-level tbc without the need for frame-level units most of the time. In my case, I've had a few bad tapes that required both units, but most of the time the line tbc has sufficed.

You read a lot about the benefits of higher-end VCR's with built-in line tbc's. That's OK for pristine tape, but most of these machines (usually older JVC consumer units) refuse to play damaged tape. Higher end Panasonics (more expensive) have more robust tbc's and tape transports that could solve many (but not all) problems. The VCR that you describe would be unlikely to have a tape transport that behaves well with damaged tape.

You are correct in assuming that you'd ultimately get better quality with bad tape if you capture to lossless huffyuv or lagarith compression into a computer. Old tape always requires some level of post-processing VHS captures, even if the tape plays well. One way around these tracking problems other than having a better tape transport, is to get your hands on a Panasonicc or Toshiba DVD recorder. You don't record with these machines; rather, you use them as line-level tbc pass-thru devices -- insert the recorder between your VCR and capture device but use only the machine's input and output directly, without recording, the way you'd view a cable broadcast thru your recorder without recording the broadcast. Their built-in tbc's tend to be more effective than consumer-grade VCR's because the recorder's tbc has no mechanical tracking problems to contend with. I'm using circa-2002 to 2004 Panny and Toshiba's as pass-thru and find their tbc's very talented (the Toshiba IMHO seems the better choice, as it seems tp also have some level of frame-corrected processing as well). A frame-level TBC could handily follow that device in circuit, but might not always be necessary. Even a used DVD recorder with a defective optical disk could be applied, since you wouldn't need the machine's optical drive anyway for capture.

Meanwhile, here's an old trick for working with bad tape: use the repacking technique. It's best to have a VCR with a slow and/or gentle rewind mechanism (do NOT use one of those cheap rewind-only gizmo's, they will ruin your tape!), but any VCR in decent condition will do. Fast-forward the tape without playing it until it is completely rewound on the take-up spool. Then fast-rewind until the tape is fully loaded back to the feed spool. Do this twice or more until you see that the tape is smoothly repacked without bundles, bumps, or uneven portions of repacked tape. Then, wait a few days for the mylar's innate flexibility to mend itself somewhat before trying to capture again. You'd be surprised how often this works to smooth many playback problems.

[sl74]

Many thanks to both of you for the replies and the advice.

Unfortunately the VHS tapes were recorded on a variety of machines, so using the original isn't an option. Most of the old tapes still play well. I think the problems I've encountered with the HD PVR is probably more from the box dropping out of the recording than anything else. Since I would want to edit most of the file I record, another capture device would seem to be the way to go. My machine doesn't have an AGP slot and, being on W7, it seems my options are limited. The ADVC-100 looks interesting. Are there any other capture devices that would be recommended? How about the Black Magic Intensity? Or an TV Wonder HD 600/650? Anything else I could consider?

Great tip about using the DVD Recorder, Sanlyn. I'll look into that, and other line-level TBC's.

[sl74]

Update. I've spent more time looking round for what's available.

Would the following setup be overkill/good for VHS? There are probably 100+ tapes to be worked through.

VCR - JVC HR-S7600
TBC - AVT-8710 & Panasonic ES10
Capture Device - Black Magic Intensity Pro

I was looking to get a hold of a ATI TV Wonder 600/750 USB, but they seem impossible to track down in the UK. Anything else of similar quality to the ATI's that could replace the BMIP? I'm planning on capturing uncompressed to VirtualDub, performing some editing/tinkering before storing to disc.

Thanks.

[sanlyn]

Would the following setup be overkill/good for VHS? There are probably 100+ tapes to be worked through.

VCR - JVC HR-S7600
TBC - AVT-8710 & Panasonic ES10
Capture Device - Black Magic Intensity Pro

I managed on my very own to burn up two copies of the JVC 7600 over the years. It's similar to JVC's bigger boys from the late 1990's, and has most of their same features. The main differences are the 7600's smaller digital processing cache (about 2MB I believe, but more than enough) and a lighter weight tape transport. Finding a 7600 in good condition at this point might be difficult. With any JVC it's worth a note that JVC discontinued parts support years ago. It has a built-in line tbc; if you disable it in the menu, you also disable some of its image cleanup processing and will get inferior output. As with most JVC's, playback of EP tapes is poor. It will reject or have playback problems with most damaged or (charitably) less-than- pristiine tapes. With the 7600's (or any of its big brother JVC's) TBC and image processing enabled, you'll see noise reduction but on noisy tapes you'll see mild digital artifacts similar to those from temporal smoothers set too high. These shortcomings are common to JVC's of the late 90's, but it's worth a try if you find a good 7600.

The ES-10's line tbc is active on its Line 1 input. It's likely a "better" tbc than the JVC's, as it's newer. If your VCR has a built-in tbc, you won't need that and the ES-10 together. The AVT-8710 is a full-frame tbc that you'd need for copy protected source. However, I've found that my Panasonic and Toshiba recorder's tbc used as pass-thru allowed me to record copy protected sources without the AVT-8710 - works almost all the time, anyway. If you're forced to use a VCR that has no s-video output, you'll find that the composite-to-svideo converters in Panny and Toshiba recorders are very clean. The Toshibas have a configurable y/c comb filter that can sharply reduce dot crawl and other problems with composite (I think the ES10 has a y/c filter as well, but someone correct me if I'm wrong there).

I was looking to get a hold of a ATI TV Wonder 600/750 USB, but they seem impossible to track down in the UK. Anything else of similar quality to the ATI's that could replace the BMIP? I'm planning on capturing uncompressed to VirtualDub, performing some editing/tinkering before storing to disc.

The ATI 600 and 650 are less problematic than the 700 series, but either would do. You find them at auction sites (eBay) and similar sources. The Black Magic unit is highly rated (but not cheap). I'm not enamored of its authoring software, you're better off with something more talented such as TMPGenc's editors and authoring stuff. These haven't been certified for 64-bit systems, but there are many free packages listed in the Tools section of videohelp.