Capture Lossless with WinTV-PVR-150

[LightWeightProducer]

He has the card. It'll probably work fine for what he wants if he uses it correctly. More than likely he wants to clean up the effects of unstable video tape playback. No frame grabber card/usb device is going to make much of a difference in this respect. He most likely needs a TBC to clean up the video before it hits the capture stage. Purchasing another capture device without determining what is wrong in the first place is non-sensical.

You may not like command line interfaces, but it doesn't mean that its not a solution for him.

[usually_quiet]

He has the card. It'll probably work fine for what he wants if he uses it correctly. More than likely he wants to clean up the effects of unstable video tape playback. No frame grabber card/usb device is going to make much of a difference in this respect. He most likely needs a TBC to clean up the video before it hits the capture stage. Purchasing another capture device without determining what is wrong in the first place is non-sensical.

You may not like command line interfaces, but it doesn't mean that its not a solution for him.

I first used a PC in 1984, before GUIs existed outside a research facility, and can use command line interfaces and batch files if I must, but 99% of those using a PC in 2012 won't use anything that is not GUI. That is reality.

None of this may apply to the OP, but most people trying to do this start without the right equipment, and have to learn the hard way before they decide they need it. ...and many of those who attempt this would be better off finding a good service that can do it for them rather than take up a new hobby that they don't actually enjoy.

[Edit]One more thing, from what others have said about them, the quality of the video the PVR-150 and earlier Hauppauge products can produce isn't anything special by todays standards. The main advantage the PVR-150 and earlier Hauppauge products have over current capture devices is that they tolerate drop-outs and time-base errors better than most current capture devices.

With a TBC in place, those problems are less of an issue, and it is likely that that one of the better-quality current capture devices that can provide uncompressed output will produce a higher quality result than the PVR-150. Loss of audio and video sync is often the result of dropped frames. Assuming a system has a second hard drive just for storing lossless captures, dropped frames are less likely to be an issue.

[jmac698]

Uncompressed recording is not problem with pvr150. There is a codec for HCW2. It's a type of YV12 but in mpeg2 type blocks. It can be losslessly converted to YV12. It's a planar format.
It's supported directly in a capture program, RoboRealm
http://www.roborealm.com/forum/index.php?thread_id=1555
http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-103277.html HCW2 -> YV12 converter

Just search people...

FOURCC: HCW2
Used by: Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-150 (I think that WinTV-PVR-500 uses it as well)

it's a YUV format created by the card when capturing AVI,
it's a bit hard to explain it's structure, so bear with me:

Format Description:
The format itself is a YUV with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling (and can be easily translated to YV12)
Each frame is starting with a Y Plane, followed by interleaved U / V Planes,
The Y Plane is constructed using a 16 x 16 (width x height) pixels macroblocks,
the pixels, as ordered in the stream, should be drawn vertically inside each macroblock, starting top left. (e.g. the second pixel should be drawn below the first pixel, and not to the right of it), the second line (pixel 17), should be drawn to the right of the first line, at the top of the macro block. (and so on)

the second macroblock should be drawn to the right of the first macroblock. after the frame width is filled with macroblocks,
we continue at the left side of the next row (below the first row). (and so on)

The U plane, and the V plane, are using the same technique, but with a 8 x 16 (width x height) macroblocks.


Notes:
the above information is a result of reverse engineering, it could be inaccurate, or different for different resolutions.
I have emailed Hauppauge, but they did not provide any informations about this colorspace.

Tal Aloni

Download: (Application + Source)
The application and source provided as-is, the application is very simple, does not contain much error-handling code, and have been only tested with PAL materials so far.

Application (Dot-Net Framework 2.0 is required):
http://iknowu.dnsalias.com/files/public/hcw2/HCW2%20Video%20Decoder%201.0.2.exe

Source (C# 2.0 - Visual Studio 2005):
http://iknowu.dnsalias.com/files/public/hcw2/HCW2%20Video%20Decoder%201.0.2.zip

Revision History:
1.0.2:
+ improved logging (Null frames detection)

1.0.1:
+ Added support for Files > 2GB (OpenDML)
+ Added an option to write log file.

1.0.0:
Initial Release

[rudolf016]

ok, this decoder helped.
But isn't there still quality loss of the hcw2 codec since it's not lossless & because it uses color space 4:2:0. Isn't pal s-vhs 4:2:2?

[jmac698]

It's lossless and PAL is 4:2:0

[jagabo]

Analog video can't be 4:2:0.

[rudolf016]

http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-103277.html:

"The HCW2 codec is not a lossless format anyway."?

[jmac698]

HCW2 not lossless - that was an opinion, which I don't share, there was nothing in the reverse engineering of the format to suggest that it's not lossless, however even the drivers come with a directshow hcw2 to raw converter, and knowing a bit about how chips work, it's probably just tapping into the data just after it's been rerranged into a arrangement suitable for processing into mpeg2, wouldn't that be logical?
But yeah, this is just another internet opinion, but I just don't see evidence for it being lossy. The argument that it's just mpeg2 that's been decompressed again, give me a break, it's an mpeg encoder not an encoder/decoder. And if it were lossy, it would be mpeg - in which case it would just be mpeg, and nothing else!

Analog can't be 4:2:0 - heh, actually that's the whole point of PAL, it sends exactly the same color information for two lines. A simple TV will display the same color repeated, however the 2nd copy is in a different phase. This is the whole reason for the artefact of hannover bars. A modern TV will use a 1 line delay to process color.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL

Not only that, but by programming some game consoles to screw up the color and NOT duplicate it, you can create more colors, basically by choosing two colors on the 2 lines and the TV will average them to a new color, basically adding new tints in between your existing palette. (used in some c64 demos I think)

[jagabo]

Analog can't be 4:2:0 - heh, actually that's the whole point of PAL, it sends exactly the same color information for two lines. A simple TV will display the same color repeated, however the 2nd copy is in a different phase. This is the whole reason for the artefact of hannover bars. A modern TV will use a 1 line delay to process color.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL

You're right. It looks like I don't know my PAL video! Thanks for the clarification.

[LightWeightProducer]

There's no secret to AVI capture with the PVR-150, even though it is an incredibly stupid thing to do and opens a tin of timing worms. I'm a bit surprised that the people here that profess familiarity with the card didn't mention this solution. It's something I worked out years ago.

1) use your PC's audio card since the latest Hauppauge driver doesn't expose PCM audio
2) Use a directshow filter capable capture program such as virtualvcr and push the video stream through Hauppauge's color space conversion filter (installed as part of the Windows driver).

That's it. No need to build a special VFW decode to handle HCW2.

[jmac698]

I agree; I love virtualvcr for it's ability to use custom directshow chains, you can do the same by saving a filtergraph though. And yes I did mention that an hcw2 to yuv converter came with the drivers. If you check shopsvhs ? site there's tricks for pcm etc. I would think that using audio from the card would be theoretically better sync though.

[rudolf016]

@jmac698
I sent a email to Hauppauge and asked them if HCW2 is lossless. They answered it is not lossless and the card can only capture lossy.
I don't know how chips work and I don't know how much thught the guy from Hauppauge gave into his answer but wouldn't Hauppauge mention it in the specs of the card that it could capture lossless? I mean if it's true that it can capture lossless wouldn't that be a good selling point? I just can't imagine why Hauppauge would purposely make the card unable to capture lossless. Or why if the users found out how to capture lossless with the card, why they don't support it natively?

@LightWeightProducer
AVI is a container as you probably know. What would than be the video codec of the captured file? The question is if HCW2 is lossless or not. btw. I'm capturing with virtualdub whitch captures in an AVI container but with the HCW2 codec and that's the reason that you need the converter to turn the HCW2 video in to a playable format (whitch is also in an AVI container).

[usually_quiet]

@jmac698
I sent a email to Hauppauge and asked them if HCW2 is lossless. They answered it is not lossless and the card can only capture lossy.
I don't know how chips work and I don't know how much thught the guy from Hauppauge gave into his answer but wouldn't Hauppauge mention it in the specs of the card that it could capture lossless? I mean if it's true that it can capture lossless wouldn't that be a good selling point? I just can't imagine why Hauppauge would purposely make the card unable to capture lossless. Or why if the users found out how to capture lossless with the card, why they don't support it natively?

@LightWeightProducer
AVI is a container as you probably know. What would than be the video codec of the captured file? The question is if HCW2 is lossless or not. btw. I'm capturing with virtualdub whitch captures in an AVI container but with the HCW2 codec and that's the reason that you need the converter to turn the HCW2 video in to a playable format (whitch is also in an AVI container).

The ability to capture in a lossless format is unlikely to be mentioned in a capture device's specs. Most consumers who buy a capture device want something that captures in a lossy end format like DVD compatible MPEG-2 or H.264, and that is what the manufacturer's software provides. Since the manufacture's software doesn't support lossless capture, and the percentage of consumers who want to capture video in a lossless format is rather small, there is little point in advertising a device as one that supports lossless capture.

People who want to capture using a lossless format using a consumer-type capture device need to look for one that uses software for encoding. Most of those can be used for capturing using a lossless format (using virtualdub or similar freeware), as well as for capturing in a lossy format with the manufacturer's software.

[TimA-C]

I'm using my Hauppauge PVR150 in a 64-bit Windows 7 box with a 2.6GHz core2duo with 3Gb RAM to mainly view/record from our Sky+ box and getting pretty good results - far, far better than I ever got when I first bought the card to replace a beloved Leadtek PVR2000 capture card.

I'm using the excellent (now) legacy GB-PVR (free) software to record via the SVGA input but the (also excellent) replacement NextPVR software (also free) would probably work as well. Out of the box, the best quality recording from GB-PVR is Mpeg2 at a constant 12Mbit/s and 2-channel mpeg level 1 layer 2 audio at 384Kbit/s, but by editing one of the GB-PVR config files (direct.ini) you can get it up to 18Mbit/s (Yes. 18Mbit/s!) but I'm running at 15Mbit/s. You do need to use GraphEdit (or it's like) to turn off the dreadful static and temporal denoising! Access to the ProcAmp settings (Contrast, brightness, sharpness, colour, etc.) is through the registry (and you will need to adjust these to get good results).

Once you've got your recording, edit it, apply any filters (I do some temporal denoising) and re-encode to DVD standard Mpeg2, Xvid, MKV or whatever you want. I'm getting noticeably better results now than I get with my ageing Liteon DVD recorder, but it has taken the best part of two years to get there!

As for the audio, are you connecting your audio source to the PVR150's audio input NOT the soundcard's audio in? The recorded audio is loud but not actually distorting (as it used to with earlier versions of the drivers) and a fair amount of surround information is kept.

[LightWeightProducer]

@LightWeightProducer
AVI is a container as you probably know. What would than be the video codec of the captured file? The question is if HCW2 is lossless or not. btw. I'm capturing with virtualdub whitch captures in an AVI container but with the HCW2 codec and that's the reason that you need the converter to turn the HCW2 video in to a playable format (whitch is also in an AVI container).

Using virtualvcr as per my prior post? The codec would be what ever codec you decided. Using virtualVCR and the Haup colour space convertor you could use huffyuv, mjpeg etc. Virtualdub does not, at least from what I can tell, have the option of inserting direct show filters into the capture process and as a result can not apply any compression such as huffyuv / mjpeg during the capture process.

I don't know if HCW2 is itself lossy or not, but I suspect that the pictures it presents are derived from a lossy source on the card, ie the output of the MPEG-2 encoder, perhaps in an all I-frame configuration. If I had the time and the inclination I'd do some tests to find out. Regardless, the card is intended for MPEG capture not AVI capture. Fighting it up hill all the way to force it to do something that it's not intended to really isn't a good idea IMO.

Something I've only just remembered, it's possible to tweak the MPEG-2 output of the card so that it's all I frames instead of interrelated IPB. Setting the card to 15Mbit/sec, all I frames may be good enough for your purposes.

[LightWeightProducer]

I'm using my Hauppauge PVR150 in a 64-bit Windows 7 box with a 2.6GHz core2duo with 3Gb RAM to mainly view/record from our Sky+ box and getting pretty good results - far, far better than I ever got when I first bought the card to replace a beloved Leadtek PVR2000 capture card.

The hauppauge tweaker tool will let you adjust (disable) the temporal filtering etc. The audio volume issue can be resolved with some registry changes. Check www.shspvr.com. The hardware on the card is quite good and is capable of good things, but for reasons known only to Hauppauge they decided to configure it in entirely stupid ways.

You can push the output of the card up past 20Mbit/sec but there's really no point in going past 15 as before then card is already doing as little compression as the final firmware is capable of.

[TimA-C]

I couldn't get the tweaker tool to work with any of the recent drivers from Hauppauge, hence using Graphedit to turn off the denoising. Likewise the registry tweaks to alter the audio levels. I also couldn't get above 18Mbit/s but I was getting a very occasional purple flash at the top of the picture at 18Mbit/s. As it turns out, I had a dying stick of RAM in that machine which may well have been the cause. Since replacing the RAM and completely reinstalling the whole system it's been as good as gold with my previously working settings. When I get time I may play with the settings some more and see how far I can push them and if there are any visible benefits in doing so.

[rudolf016]

If you do not want a device that includes a TV tuner, the Hauppauge USB-Live-2 Analog Video Capture USB 2.0 (Haup610) gets good reviews, and it works with VirtualDub. There are a few quality tests posted on YouTube recording video game play. The captures look nice, but if you are capturing VHS or other analog tapes it is hard to say whether it will do a good job or not. It is harder to find a good capture device for analog tapes today than it once was.

Ok, I'm probably going to buy the usb live 2 from hauppauge. I realized that their are two models of that device: the 1341 one and the 610 one. Where I live it would be easier to buy myself the 1341 one. Does this one also use a software encoder(-->can it capture with lagarith?) and compatible with Vdub?

http://www.amazon.de/Hauppauge-USB-Live2-Analog-Video-Digitizer/dp/B003Q2ZA36/ref=sr_1...8&sr=8-1-fkmr0

vs.

http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-610-HAUPPAUGE-USB-Live2/dp/B0036VO2BI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UT...0438568&sr=8-1

[usually_quiet]

If you do not want a device that includes a TV tuner, the Hauppauge USB-Live-2 Analog Video Capture USB 2.0 (Haup610) gets good reviews, and it works with VirtualDub. There are a few quality tests posted on YouTube recording video game play. The captures look nice, but if you are capturing VHS or other analog tapes it is hard to say whether it will do a good job or not. It is harder to find a good capture device for analog tapes today than it once was.

Ok, I'm probably going to buy the usb live 2 from hauppauge. I realized that their are two models of that device: the 1341 one and the 610 one. Where I live it would be easier to buy myself the 1341 one. Does this one also use a software encoder(-->can it capture with lagarith?) and compatible with Vdub?

http://www.amazon.de/Hauppauge-USB-Live2-Analog-Video-Digitizer/dp/B003Q2ZA36/ref=sr_1...8&sr=8-1-fkmr0

vs.

http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-610-HAUPPAUGE-USB-Live2/dp/B0036VO2BI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UT...0438568&sr=8-1

Hauppauge doesn't list it in the specs, but the Hauppauge USB Live 2 uses software for encoding.

For future reference, USB capture devices that are nearly the same size as a USB flash drive don't provide hardware encoding. Hardware encoding chips require extra space and generate too much heat in such small enclosures.

The 610 model number is for N. America, and the 1341 model number is for Europe. Get the model made for the region you live in, Europe.

Sometimes the only difference between Hauppauge models is the languages available in the manual or the software's user interface, which looks to be the case here. Since both models appear to be capable of capturing both PAL and NTSC, there is probably no difference in the hardware itself.

I found video game capture tutorial on YouTube where the poster claimed to use virtualdub for capturing with a Hauppauge USB-Live 2. So, unless he is misrepresenting what he did, it appears this combination can work. Unfortunately even though the video included a tutorial, it didn't reveal the virtualdub settings used for the actual capture process. The guy responsible for the video doesn't seem like an expert, so I'm guessing the correct settings couldn't have been too difficult to figure out.

[rudolf016]

For future reference, USB capture devices that are nearly the same size as a USB flash drive don't provide hardware encoding. Hardware encoding chips require extra space and generate too much heat in such small enclosures.

So that means that Easycap also uses Software encoding and is basicly the same as the USB live 2?

I'm asking because Easycap is cheaper and I could buy it in my country and I wouldn't have to order it from Germany.

And does software encoding necessarily mean you can choose from any codec you want?

[usually_quiet]

So that means that Easycap also uses Software encoding and is basicly the same as the USB live 2?

I'm asking because Easycap is cheaper and I could buy it in my country and I wouldn't have to order it from Germany.

Yes, the EasyCap USB devices use software for encoding, but are not held in high regard here. They are knock-offs of older discontinued products once made by a legitimate company. The knock-offs don't often come with Windows 7-compatible drivers. You have to find those on your own. Windows 7 doesn't seem to find them for you. The real EzCAP company's present capture products cost close to the same as a USB Live 2.

If you buy a cheap EasyCap, it is not likely to give you the same quality as the USB Live 2 would give you. The analog to digital conversion chips used by the USB Live 2 are different from those used for the cheap EasyCap devices.

And does software encoding necessarily mean you can choose from any codec you want?

The codec has to be supported by the capture software used. There is other software that allows the use of some form of lossless compression. DScaler, and AmaRecTV are two that I know of that allow lossless compression, although I don't know if DScaler is sufficiently compatible with Windows 7 64-bit to work for you.