Capturing unknow PAL VHS source. Can be watch on TV but not recorded on PC.

[Bellower]

Hi.. i would like to get your comments regarding an issue that I'm getting when I try to capture an old PAL VHS to my pc.

I'm using a Panasonic NVFS200 VCR (PAL version of Panasonic AG-1980 VCR) and I haven't had any problem with many commercial PAL tapes, but one in particular, that is a familiar VHS I can play it sucessfully when I connect the VCR directly to my TV set, but when I connect it to my PC to capture the tape, I got a lot of black images, like a macrovision issue, but I don't think it is macrovision. The image is show it and then black and then show it and then black and so on..

You can download and watch the video here, (please don't care about the resolution of teh capture video, just wonder about the black images) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WK5I87H4

The softwares that I use on my pc are "amarec" and "media express" (I have a Blackmagic capture card), and the settings were set to capture in PAL (576i)

The VHS is from 94, but it was recorded by my Holland family with their camera. So I think, the reason is because some particular PAL format is required to set on the capture programs.

If i turn on the TBC option on the VCR, the image looks a "negative" color image with distortion.

Please your help to understand what is happening with this particular VHS tape and why I can properly watch it on TV but cannot be recorded by my pc capture device.

Regards and thanks in advance!
Bellower!

[DB83]

BTW There is no need to use a hoster for a 3 meg file - can be uploaded here as an attachment.

This, I would agree, is not a macrovision issue.

Are you using the same output from the VCR in to the Blackmagic as goimg to the tv ?

I would also check the settings on the Blackmagic. What else is there ?

[Bellower]

Hi DB83, thanks for your reply

i'm using exaclty the same output (Svideo) from VCR to switch between TV set and Capture card

If i put any other PAL VHS (even commercial ones) I can capture by using Blackmigc without problem, just setting the source option to capture in PAL format.

On Blackmagic there are not too much options regarding the "source". You can capture on PAL, NTSC, NTSC 23.796. All of them can be set to be capture in AVI 8-bit or 10-bit

Of course there are other options regarding HD sources (1080 and 720) but they are out of this issue.

There is a way to know what kind of signal (format) is providing the VCR to the TV set? just to discover what kind of PAL format is used when that particular VHS is played.
My TV set is a LG LCD, so it just adjust the resolution to play accordingly NTSC or PAL signal sources.

I think the best wait is to disovery the signal provided when that particular VHS is played on the NFS200 VCR. I don't have any other PAL VCR, so far that one is working OK with other PAL VHS that i have.

Please your kindly help.
Regards!
Bellower

[DB83]

There are different variants of PAL but I would expect the Dutch to use PAL-I. Other variants of PAL would result in a black and white picture.

I suppose there is a remote possiblity that the VHS is actually NTSC and your capture device is making a valliant attempt to decode the PAL-60 signal that your VCR is outputing. The tv has no issue with this as the majority of European VCR/TVs will handle NTSC tapes fine. The issues only arise in the digital domain.

[Bellower]

Well.. your assumption could be right.. BUT.. the NFS200 even when it is the "PAL" version of the AG-1980p VCR player, it PLAYS NTSC VHS anyway. I've tried already the NFS200 to play some NTSC vhs's and it works and I can capture them like NTSC source on blackmagic.

So that's why that particular "vhs" is driving me crazy, because if it is NTSC i shouldn't have any problem to play it also.. but i'm sure it is PAL (or maybe some PAL variant).. why i'm so sure? because I also have the AG-1980p VCR player where i cannot play any PAL VHS but NTSC VHS's. And the problematic VHS cannot be reproduced there, i got the same issue like the sample video attached before. But on AG-1980p it happens will all my PAL VHS.. and i think that's right, because AG-1980p is "ONLY NTSC" VCR player.

So that's why, i'm pretty sure the problematic VHS, at least, is NOT NTSC VHS.

Could be the problematic VHS kind of SECAM video?
Do you know any way to know the signal provided (output) by the VCR player, just to be sure that it is PAL or maybe a PAL variant.. or maybe secam.. i don't know :/

Thanks again!
Regards
Bellower

[DB83]

Getting a tad confusing now. You do not state which country you are based - I assumed it to be European from the original comments of playing the PAL VHS on your tv. Can you please state where you are presently based.

Now one thing that really puzzles me is that you can apparently dub a NTSC tape through a PAL-only VCR with the Blackmagic as NTSC. I would have thought that to be a technical imposiblity unless the Blackmagic also handles PAL-60. I think it is important to establish these facts for someone else to pick up on this thread.

I would tend to discount Secam. No logic for a Dutch family to use a system that only the French and parts of Africa IIRC use. Also your VCR, I would have thought, would have coughed very loudly if you tried to play a Secam tape - that would result in Black and White on your tv.

Now you state, if I read you correctly, you can reproduce this issue by playing a PAL VHS through an NTSC-only VCR. But is the NVF PAL-only ?

The other possibility is that the tape - I assume it is a copy - has a severve timing issue. You would need an image-stabiliser/full external TBC to correct that. Again, tv's are more tollerant to these signals.

Do you by chance have access to a dvd-recorder(not PC based) and attempt to dub direct from the VHS to that ?

[Bellower]

ok.. let me clarify

- I'm from CHILE, so my region is NTSC
- I have 2 VCR: AG-1980p (NTSC only VCR player) and NVFS200 (PAL version of AG-1980p, but it also plays NTSC)

- my NTSC VHS's can be played & captured on PC by using both VCR
- my PAL VHS's can be only played & caputerd on PC by using NVSF200 VCR only

I have a VHS recorded by my Holland family. That VHS can be played and watch on TV by using NVFS200 VCR player only. BUT when I try to capture on PC that particular VHS, I got the problem described in the video attached previously.

I have a DVD recorded but it only accept NTSC input signal. I will have a external TBC to put in the middle between NVFS200 VCR and blackmagic, and check if it solves the issue.

Thanks
Regards

[DB83]

Thanks. We are getting there.

The NVFS200 will, no doubt, play the NTSC tapes using the PAL-60 format. I do not think it is multi-standard. Your tv must think this is an NTSC tape even though there are PAL timings on it and displays it ok.

But now comes the tricky bit. You put, if again I read you right, a pure PAL tape in the NVF and your tv also displays that. I did not think that NTSC tvs could display PAL signals which is why I assumed, now quite incorrectly, that you were based in Europe. So your tv must be multi-standard ?

The Netherlands use PAL B/G. Apologies for my error. However, for all intents and purposes, that is similar enough to PAL I(the UK system). I have no issue playing Dutch VHS on my UK system. But now I wonder what your PAL VCR is set for. That may be the key. You should also look at the capture software to see what type of PAL that is set for.

[Bellower]

Thanks. We are getting there.

The NVFS200 will, no doubt, play the NTSC tapes using the PAL-60 format. I do not think it is multi-standard. Your tv must think this is an NTSC tape even though there are PAL timings on it and displays it ok.

But now comes the tricky bit. You put, if again I read you right, a pure PAL tape in the NVF and your tv also displays that. I did not think that NTSC tvs could display PAL signals which is why I assumed, now quite incorrectly, that you were based in Europe. So your tv must be multi-standard ?

yes, my TV set (LG LCD) can accept multi standards for sure, i know it because I also have 2 laserdisc players, one NTSC and other PAL, and both plays perfectly on my TV set. I can even "notice" the quick switch to the PAL resolution when i play PAL laserdisc (as you know the native signal that i commonly watch on the TV is NTSC as you know that I am in Chile). So just to confirm it, the TV set is multi-standard.

The Netherlands use PAL B/G. Apologies for my error. However, for all intents and purposes, that is similar enough to PAL I(the UK system). I have no issue playing Dutch VHS on my UK system. But now I wonder what your PAL VCR is set for. That may be the key. You should also look at the capture software to see what type of PAL that is set for.

That's the same doubt that i have, what kind of "PAL" signal is output by the VCR when it plays that particular VHS. My common capture softwares are "media express" (native blackmagic's capturing software) and "amarec, and they don't have any particular option for PAL capture mode. they just say "PAL", so I can not handle the PAL variants on there..
Do you have other capturing software suggestion where I can choose the different PAL variants as source?

Thanks for your replies
Bellower

[DB83]

You could try AMcap. My old version can select the various PAL variants.

[Bellower]

I will try that and i will let you know the results. Thanks for all your time supporting me with this issue
regards!

[Bellower]

Hi.. I was able to test the problem by using a external TBC between the NVFS200 and the capture card, and... it works!

For some unknow reason the PAL signal from the problematic VHS tape is played & captured OK by the Blackmagic now.

The external TBC recognize the signal as pure PAL, so, i'm wonder why the PAL signal doesn't work when is connected directly to the blackmagic capture card.

Anyway the problem was solved, so thank you so much for your patience and constante support on this forum.

Regards!
Bellower!

[DB83]

The answer is quite simple. Your tape was a copy. The signal that it produced was not stong so it created disturbance in the digital domain when you tried to capture it. As I said earlier, your tv is more tolerant to the weak signal in an analogue domain.

Sometimes, first, second or even third generation copies transfer fine and without additional equipment. No two tapes are identical. It all comes down to the quality of the tape, the recording equipment etc etc

Glad to read that your problem is solved.

[usually_quiet]

Blackmagic's consumer products are supposed to be especially sensitive to dropouts and time base errors. See http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/3641-black-magic-intensity.html