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  1. Member
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    HV40: Record in HDV(PF24) or HDV(24F). I have been reading post but still confused which one to use in cinema mode. Think I want 24F but will I have editing issues with Vegas Pro 11 or other issues? What are people using who still use tape? What are the issues?
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  2. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    pf24 is encoded into a 60i stream and has to be ivtc to true 24p before using.

    24f is already 24p at the firewire stream.
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    RE: Vegas Pro and HV40

    I'm doing this from memory so test check what I say. I'll do the same later. Assuming tape was recorded in HDV mode.

    24PF is transferred over Firewire as interlace telecine hence Vegas project setting should be 29.97 TFF. Vegas is not good at inverse telecine. If you want a progressive project, inverse telecine externally*, then import.

    30F is sent as 29.97 TFF but both fields come from the same frame so either a 29.97 TFF or 29.97 progressive project will work. If you want to edit progressive, use the latter. When finished, "render as" 29.97 progressive if you want to encode progressive. Render 29.97 TFF if you want to encode "30p" to "60i".

    24F is sent as field 1 and field 2 from same frame similar to "30F" but at a 23.976 fps rate so Vegas Pro project should be set to 23.976 progressive frames. When finished, "render as" 23.976 progressive if you want to encode progressive. Render 29.97 TFF if you want to encode "24p" to "60i" telecine.

    There is another 24p mode supported by Vegas Pro called 24pA (for advanced). This mode is not supported by the HV40 but is standard for higher end pro camcorders. In this mode "24p" is sent as a special telecine sequence 2:3:3:2 instead of 2:3:2:3. This mode simplifies the inverse telecine task to simple frame decimation instead of synchronized field picking needed for normal inverse telecine.


    * I use Cineform Neoscene to inverse telecine HDV or AVCHD 24PF, then import as 23.976p.

    PS: I never got around to testing if these modes work in SD DV mode, but DV is always sent BFF instead of TFF. I don't have access to an HV40 currently, just an HV20. So if you need more help, post motion samples for 30F and 24F modes so I can test them in Vegas Pro.
    Last edited by edDV; 22nd Dec 2011 at 19:32.
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  4. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    i missed the issues question. 24p has lots of issues and shouldn't be used at all by a consumer. if you are shooting for the big screen with a big budget and know what you are doing, sure.

    use 30i or 30p.

    i've used 30p cine mode with my hv30 almost exclusively and never run into any problems.
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  5. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    i missed the issues question. 24p has lots of issues and shouldn't be used at all by a consumer. if you are shooting for the big screen with a big budget and know what you are doing, sure.

    use 30i or 30p.

    i've used 30p cine mode with my hv30 almost exclusively and never run into any problems.
    I agree with you in general on "24P". It is for cinema hobbyists or for pro/prosumer B roll.

    I disagree consumers should be shooting 30p for other than youtube. 30p has half the motion samples so belongs on a tripod.

    IMO the default format should be (60i=30i=29.97i*). 60 motion samples per sec and compatible with most software.


    * Classical terminology is 29.97i TFF or BFF. 60i is newspeak indicating 60 motion samples per second. This has been adopted by most hardware manufacturers. Vegas is trying to use both to great confusion. I don't see "30i" being used much.
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    edDV - 60i=30i=29.97i Are saying just shoot in HVD? Some background: I'm shooting talking head with fixed light and sound on a set. Minimal motion and no sound spikes plenty of fixed lighting. Ultimately to go to DVD that will play on all players. I'm not a pro. This is for a church type group. My choices are HDV, HDV30, HDV24 and HDV 24F. Also, if I go straight HDV should I use Cinema Mode?
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  7. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by videobread View Post
    edDV - 60i=30i=29.97i Are saying just shoot in HVD? Some background: I'm shooting talking head with fixed light and sound on a set. Minimal motion and no sound spikes plenty of fixed lighting. Ultimately to go to DVD that will play on all players. I'm not a pro. This is for a church type group. My choices are HDV, HDV30, HDV24 and HDV 24F. Also, if I go straight HDV should I use Cinema Mode?
    I am away from the camera at the moment but the default HDV is 29.97i (60i) and 1440x1080 resolution.

    DVD supports two frame rate modes 29.97i and 23.976p both normally at 720x480 resolution.

    You have several options.

    1. HDV 1440x1080 29.97i TFF to DVD 720x480 29.97i TFF. This is the normal path.

    2. HDV 1440x1080 23.976 progressive to NTSC DVD 720x480 23.976 progressive.

    The main reason to do this is if you are also going for a PAL DVD of the highest quality. This is the typical "Hollywood" TV series path. The skillset and software required is 5-10x more complex to pull this off. It isn't really necessary because most PAL DVD players play NTSC DVDs to PAL TV sets.

    3. HDV 30F, 1440x1080 29.97 progressive "disguised" as 29.97i (60i).

    This is an option and would work for DVD because it "looks like" 60i to the DVD player. It has half the motion samples vs 60i. The main pro is you have progressive frames that compress somewhat better* for PC/internet (e.g. Youtube) distribution. But you can also get there from 60i source. Just export from Vegas as Sony Vegas AVC (1440x1080 29.97 progressive 8Mbps*) with AAC audio.

    * Not much difference for stationary talking heads.

    ** Youtube limits file size. If this setting results in excess file size (e.g. long duration) decrease bit rate proportionately. You export to high bit rate because Youtube re-encodes everything again to their requirements.
    Last edited by edDV; 22nd Dec 2011 at 21:22.
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  8. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    cinema mode gets rid of the "consumer" settings, too bright , too saturated, too gross. it will work with any fps setting.

    i've shot 30p handheld sports events and have had good results. ymmv. 30p works well going to dvd and HD video of any type.
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  9. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    cinema mode gets rid of the "consumer" settings, too bright , too saturated, too gross. it will work with any fps setting.

    i've shot 30p handheld sports events and have had good results. ymmv. 30p works well going to dvd and HD video of any type.
    Cinema Mode is independent of frame rate. You can apply Cinema Mode to any frame rate.

    I'm not sure if Cinema Mode affects brightness but it attempts to imitate film gamma (more detail in dark gray and warmer color). For studio lit material it will degrade in bright areas. The goal is enhancement of dark areas.
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  10. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by videobread View Post
    edDV - 60i=30i=29.97i Are saying just shoot in HVD?
    Videobread, when you depart from default 60i to 24p, you are effectively saying you are a geek that knows why. Expect a challenge. There are reasons for a few situations. If you have a special need, we can dig deeper.
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    Thanks all. I've decided to go with out of the box settings. HDV i60 and no cinema mode or any other filters. A do all in editing mentality.
    a link I found helpful was: http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/professionalformatsandworkflows/index.ht...=2%26section=6

    Even though I'm using Vegas, the HDV material on the site was very helpful
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  12. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    cinema mode gets rid of the "consumer" settings, too bright , too saturated, too gross. it will work with any fps setting.

    i've shot 30p handheld sports events and have had good results. ymmv. 30p works well going to dvd and HD video of any type.
    Cinema Mode is independent of frame rate. You can apply Cinema Mode to any frame rate.

    I'm not sure if Cinema Mode affects brightness but it attempts to imitate film gamma (more detail in dark gray and warmer color). For studio lit material it will degrade in bright areas. The goal is enhancement of dark areas.
    cinema mode attempts to match the neutral characteristics of cameras like the gl2, not the average consumer overly bright and saturated preference.
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  13. Member edDV's Avatar
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    The HV series does stretch luma out to 16-255 but chroma is correct. When processing HV material for DVD, it is best to adjust luma back to 16-235. The Vegas Pro waveform monitor scope is a great assist to see where this is necessary.
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