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  1. Member
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    Hello.
    I always used progressive with blend fields, but just today got some AVI material, captured VHC tapes, and came upon a thread in the internet about using convolution kernel to sharpen it, but there was no options mentioned. So I became interested what can be really squeezed out from Vegas, maybe there is some nice deinterlace plug-in, because although I get best quality with Blend fields, it still gets quite blurry (input material is not high quality, just some old VHC's) and I would like to keep as much detail as possible.

    Want to render into mpg's or mp4's.

    Any ideas?
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  2. You do not want to simple deinterlace, you'd ruin your video, it will not be smooth any more. If you insist on making it progressive, you double the frame rate.
    You can add some Avisynth filters into skript into this workflow:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR5hd7G3iFQ
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    Ok, I have to try it out. I'll do that in a day or two and let you know.
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  4. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Vegas deinterlace is average at best, blend or interpolate. Blend is ok for low motion, interpolate frames works better for fast motion or graphics. I prefer to keep it interlace through encode and let the player deal with it using more sophisticated bobs or motion adaptive technique to 60p/120p.

    Even when you maintain an interlace project, Vegas must deinterlace frames for many scaled translation effects or most simple transitions. You set the deinterlace method in the project settings. I normally default to interpolate fields.
    Last edited by edDV; 11th Dec 2011 at 04:11.
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    Ok, I'm in the process of figuring things out. Now I know I need mpg as an output since my video has to play on dvd player. I read a lot about interlacing and progressive and mostly people who know recommend to leave it as it is, if the source is interlaced then just leave it that way. So I tried and made some clips but the results are horrible, any swift movement looks wavy and also interlacing artifacts are there, really bad. I though maybe it's Windows media player's fault, but other players show same result. Why is that?

    When I render into progressive, it comes out fine, but interlaced should also be fine, isn't it? I wouldn't want to use progressive blend fields since its too blending, inerpolate shows too much blocks. The problem is that the material is not a high quality one, so you really have to play around with it.

    If I have to go progressive, does the above mentioned workflow also support mpeg output?

    Btw, Sony AVC MP4 output format gives really nice results, crisper quality and less file size then same bitrate mpg render. Is there a way to get the same out from a mpg?
    Last edited by Srivas; 19th Dec 2011 at 09:03.
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  6. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    "So I tried and made some clips but the results are horrible,"
    On What? Your PC? Through Vegas' window? Did you look to see how the final output looks on its final destination display (like a TV)?
    I think you'll be surprised. If left alone, the deinterlacers in the final display devices (or players prior to the display) usually do a splendid job.

    Explain, IN DETAIL, your equipment setup and workflow/steps - that will help us diagnose what you may be doing wrong to get what you're getting...

    BTW, ??VHC?? In all my 20+ years working in video, I never heard of that. Do you mean VHS-C (aka compact VHS)? VHD?

    Scott
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  7. Yes, and DVD will not read H.264 or double frame rate (50p, 60p) so for DVD workflow explained in that Youtube link this link is useless for you. That workflow is all right for those new hardware media players that were not here 5 years ago, things are changing ...

    for DVD you keep interlace and mpeg2, mpeg4-avc uses somehow better algorithms than mpg so you would need a lot more bitrate to compare the quality and as for DVD you cannot exceed about 8000kbps for video, which is perhaps enough , just saying...
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  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Srivas View Post
    Ok, I'm in the process of figuring things out. Now I know I need mpg as an output since my video has to play on dvd player. I read a lot about interlacing and progressive and mostly people who know recommend to leave it as it is, if the source is interlaced then just leave it that way. So I tried and made some clips but the results are horrible, any swift movement looks wavy and also interlacing artifacts are there, really bad.
    Try MPCHC player with DXVA enabled*. This will apply hardware deinterlacing from your display card. Alternative software only deinterlace uses Yadif. These look much better than blend deinterlace to me.

    Name:  MPCHC-DXVA.png
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    * Experiment with Playback - Output set to EVR modes.
    Last edited by edDV; 19th Dec 2011 at 18:37.
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    BTW, ??VHC?? In all my 20+ years working in video, I never heard of that. Do you mean VHS-C (aka compact VHS)? VHD?
    Yes, VHS, I'm sorry...

    So I'm rendering on a laptop Samsung RF711, i72820QM processor, 8gb mem. NVidia GeForce GT 540M graphics. Software Vegas Pro 11. Input material AVI, lower field first, 25fps PAL. Rendering DVD Architect PAL video stream, constant bitrate 6000, other settings unchanged.

    Here is the example of the rendered file.
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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  10. Member edDV's Avatar
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    That would be the result for noisy un-timebase corrected source in high motion. TBC needed.
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  11. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    In other words, to do this RIGHT, you ought to go back to the very beginning and recapture the VHS-C tape.

    This time, put a good TBC (timebase corrector) between your VCR output and your capture input.

    This will fix the timebase (sync) inconsistencies and give you a more rock solid picture, the easier to capture with.

    If you never did the capture yourself and don't have access to the originals (analog tapes), you're probably out of luck. This kind of problem is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to remove after the fact (aka once it's been digitized/captured into a file).

    And, deinterlacing with this as a source just might make it worse.

    Scott
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  12. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    That whole thing is a mess, from the very beginning.
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    Ok, I see.
    I never did the capturing but the tapes are there. My friend did that and he's living in UK. I have to contact him for further information of how he had it done.

    Can you suggest what would be the best way to preserve those tapes for post editing? Probably to turn to some pro company dealing with those matters. What would you suggest? Anyone in UK? How much would that cost, let's say for one VHS tape?

    I want those tapes to be captured with best quality equipment for the best results, they are like 20 years old by now.

    What kind of equipment is required to do that in home? (there are many tapes, maybe that's more cost effective)


    Btw. progressive comes out ok, at least on the first sight, I have to test it on an external display though.
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  14. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Srivas View Post
    So I'm rendering on a laptop Samsung RF711, i72820QM processor, 8gb mem. NVidia GeForce GT 540M graphics. Software Vegas Pro 11.
    Yes, but GiGo still applies, even if you sent it to LucasFilm for render, the result would be the same.
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  15. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    That would be the result for noisy un-timebase corrected source in high motion. TBC needed.
    No, that is improper resizing of interlaced video.

    Srivas, post a short sample of your video.
    Last edited by jagabo; 22nd Dec 2011 at 10:50.
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    Jagabo, you're right!

    I did some cropping to make it look nice. When I switched back to original size, rendered it as it is, no problem! But there IS a problem, because I still want to resize it. Why can't Vegas handle the resizing? What to do next?

    I added the clip, same avi, no re-encoding.
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  17. Your video is interlaced, bottom field first, DV AVI. If you're making a DVD, mask instead of resizing, leave it as interlaced. Make sure Vegas recognizes the file is interlaced and BFF. I don't use Vegas but I think you can right click on the video in the timeline to get a source properties dialog. If you're making a video for online distribution you probably want to deinterlace and crop the borders. I recommend you leave at least mod 8 frame dimensions, even better, mod 16.
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  18. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Nice troubleshooting jagabo. You really know this stuff inside and out. Impressive.
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  19. Well, the wavy arms on a normal background were a dead giveaway.
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    Jagabo, by masking you mean to make a black square around the video? Well, actually doesn't look bad, I might just do that.
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  21. Originally Posted by Srivas View Post
    Jagabo, by masking you mean to make a black square around the video?
    Yes.

    Once you've convinced Vegas your video is interlaced it should resize it properly (if you still want to crop the borders). But resizing interlaced video always leads to artifacts. So you're better off masking rather the cropping and resizing.
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    Hi!

    Actually I came to know the reason why wavy hands were appearing, thanks to John Rofrano. As Jagabo was saying, improper resizing is the problem, but to avoid that in Vegas, there's an option in the properties called "Deinterlace method" and it has to be set to "Blend fields (or interpolate)", whereas I had it on None. That solved it and I can also crop it without any problem. The thing is that although the material is set to interlace, still there's places where Vegas has to deinterlace and therefore you have to give a parameter for doing that, that is blend fields or interpolate. Dunno, is it like that in Vegas only or this is the way it goes in video processing?

    But it solves the problem... kinda. Now what happened I rendered this video just fine, took another clip from another captured tape and now I'm facing another type of error. This time I was smarter (after the above experience), but still I cannot solve it. I continue posting in the same topic since maybe that is connected to impoper capturing, but really I don't think so. What is happening is that again, where there is motion, some distortion appears, but it's strange. It's something like a lag on a certain irregular time, just for a moment, and then picture catches up and continues ok. This time I tried everything and this is the conclusion.

    First I thought maybe it's because of filters, tried without them, same problem.
    Then I did render to Lagarith avi with and without filters, everything ok! But I need mpeg for DVD. So then I tried that rendered lagarith file to make mpg, again same problem.
    Then I thought that maybe its mainconcepts fault, tried CCE SP3 through Frameserver, again same problem.
    When I render progressive, everything ok!

    So... I don't know what could it be, I just cant render interlaced (and Vegas progressive blend field sucks, to be honest, so blurry).

    Btw, the clip with the error is also included.
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  23. That video has duplicate and missing frames. It's also out-of-phase (BFF source converted to TFF) PAL which makes the duplicates hard to see. I don't know if it's in the original capture or a result of your processing. I suspect the original capture (the capture card missed a frame so it duplicated the previous frame).

    By the way, blend deinterlacing will look like double exposures when motions get large. I wouldn't use it. Unfortunately, Vegas doesn't have good deinterlacing options. It's best to leave your video interlaced if your final output will be a DVD. Vegas should handle interlaced video properly if you tell it your source is interlaced.
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    That video has duplicate and missing frames. It's also out-of-phase (BFF source converted to TFF) PAL which makes the duplicates hard to see. I don't know if it's in the original capture or a result of your processing. I suspect the original capture (the capture card missed a frame so it duplicated the previous frame).
    My God, you're right again. I went through the clip, frame by frame, and there it is, a frame is missing here and there and therefore a duplicate is used. It wasn't so much visible though in the first place, I thought it's ok. So then looks like there's not much to do, although interesting that in progressive mode it's not really visible, why is that?

    Btw. How do you see that BFF is converted to TFF?

    By the way, blend deinterlacing will look like double exposures when motions get large. I wouldn't use it. Unfortunately, Vegas doesn't have good deinterlacing options. It's best to leave your video interlaced if your final output will be a DVD. Vegas should handle interlaced video properly if you tell it your source is interlaced.
    That's the problem with Vegas, even if you choose interlace, which I did, still you have to give a deinterlace option, looks like Vegas cannot handle pure interlace render, there's some internal deinterlacing going on on certain places, therefore there's an option to set deinterlace method even if you don't actually want to do it but you HAVE TO, otherwise if you set it to None then there's wavy hands... "None" is meant for 3rd party deinterlacing filters, that's how Sony goes around the problem (why can't they just get a decent deinterlacing filter?). So if output is deinterlace, there's some plugins like Yadif (but that makes rendering slow).

    If the problem lies in capturing, could a better capturing card solve the issue? Looks like I have to get into the whole capturing world also, but first I have to get the tapes...

    For the time being, should I just accept the results as they are? I guess so...
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  25. Originally Posted by Srivas View Post
    interesting that in progressive mode it's not really visible, why is that?
    I think it's because blend deinterlacing left a blurry mess that hides the problem.

    Originally Posted by Srivas View Post
    Btw. How do you see that BFF is converted to TFF?
    When I bob deinterlaced your M2V file it was obvious there was back and forth movement in a few places -- a clear indication that an interlaced frame was repeated. But there were no obvious duplicate or missing frames when looking at the frames themselves. When I changed the field order using the field delay technique it became clear there were duplicate and missing frames. So I guessed that the original had been captured with the opposite field order and a field order conversion had been done with the field delay technique.

    Originally Posted by Srivas View Post
    That's the problem with Vegas, even if you choose interlace, which I did, still you have to give a deinterlace option, looks like Vegas cannot handle pure interlace render...
    I'm not talking just about choosing an interlaced project. You must also tell Vegas the AVI source is interlaced. I don't use Vegas but I think the process is to right click on a clip in the timeline or import/asset window then select the interlace and field order options. Keep in mind that AVI doesn't really support interlaced video. It doesn't have any way of telling an editor that the frames within the file are interlaced. So most editors will assume progressive (except for DV AVI where the DV codec contains the interlace information and most editors know how to get at it).
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    I'm not talking just about choosing an interlaced project. You must also tell Vegas the AVI source is interlaced. I don't use Vegas but I think the process is to right click on a clip in the timeline or import/asset window then select the interlace and field order options.
    Ok, you're right, that's how you do it, but it is DV Avi and it's already LFF. So should I change the field order?

    And missing frames, is that a sign of a bad capture?
    Last edited by Srivas; 6th Jan 2012 at 22:26.
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  27. Originally Posted by Srivas View Post
    I'm not talking just about choosing an interlaced project. You must also tell Vegas the AVI source is interlaced. I don't use Vegas but I think the process is to right click on a clip in the timeline or import/asset window then select the interlace and field order options.
    Ok, you're right, that's how you do it, but it is DV Avi and it's already LFF. So should I change the field order?
    No, leave it as LFF. I'm surprised that Vegas would mess up interlaced video when it knows it's interlaced.

    Originally Posted by Srivas View Post
    And missing frames, is that a sign of a bad capture?
    Yes. But that usually doesn't happen with doesn't happen with a DV camcorder video. Was the video captured with something else then converted to DV AVI? Or captured with a "raw video" capture card and saved as DV AVI?
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    Sorry for the delay.

    Yes. But that usually doesn't happen with doesn't happen with a DV camcorder video. Was the video captured with something else then converted to DV AVI? Or captured with a "raw video" capture card and saved as DV AVI?
    I have to find that out. Something is not proper, since those avi's are with left audio channel muted and the audio track was originally 32kHz, not 48. I had to demux it with Virtualdub to fix it.
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