Still have flicker after Denoising with AviSynth

[sanlyn]

I uninstalled and re-installed Avisynth and AvsPmod in my system last night. I'm just trying to get the Mpeg2Source.dll (Sanlyn, if you can help me get that, it would help).

You don't need AvsPmod to run this script. It's a headache with many complex plugins anyway, I'd just open the script in VirtualDub.

There's no such dll as "Mpeg2Source.dll". To read your mpeg you create a .d2v index file for it with DGIndex. The command "Mpeg2Source()" uses DGDecode.dll to open a .d2v file. DGDecode.dll ships with DGIndex. copy DGDecode.dll into your Avisynth plugins folder so it will load automatically when you run scripts that open .d2v files.

You're running scripts on my video? Look, I don't want your efforts to be in vain, so for the sake of it all, I'm going to try this ONE MORE TIME. Maybe I had missing dll's due to improperly installing one of the two. Who knows?

Sanlyn, can you please post a cleaned-up clip for me so that I can see if it's even worth the trouble?

It was posted 9 days ago in an earlier post, here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/341188-Still-have-flicker-after-Denoising-with-AviS...=1#post2128667

A direct download link to the filtered MPEG is here: (right click to save)
http://dc373.4shared.com/download/G9WqUFDS/sample1.mpg

[Mephesto]

Happy end of the world, I mean New Year!

You know, in retrospect, this is the only thing I take back out of everything I said. I'm going to IVTC and YUV12 with Avisynth (as I still use HcEnc), and everything else can go piss off. Virtualdub, baby....I'm sorry I wronged you! I'm coming home, sweetheart!!

Virtualdub has been a major target by moronic permavirgins, definitely. The only thing that sucks about it is that it doesn't support the new MP4 and MKV containers (containers, not formats.) I await much more nerdraging on their part once it does.

ABSOLUTELY. And thank you for being the second person to remind me that I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Don't worry, plenty of us have dealt with retards from dipshit central (doom9) too. I'm not just talking about regular members there. I mean admins, key people, x264 devs. People that are supposed to be intelligent programmers have uttered such impossibly idiotic horse shit that I was speechless. A brilliant programmer who's supposed to know his shit, insists AVC contained in AVI crashes/corrupts/murders little kittens/whatever their misinformed accusations and his "evidence" which he proudly proclaimed testing out himself consisted of using a broken, malfunctioning video editor and muxer to create an AVI with AVC video and he noted it crashed explorer for trying to render the broken thumbnail.

Naturally, I had no idea what the hell he was talking about as I never once ran into such a problem. Then later I figured out how to reproduce his error. I encoded with Avidemux, biggest piece of shit editor ever, for the first and last time and my explorer did indeed crash when I clicked on the AVI waiting for the thumbnail to pop up.

A dev, I mean dev, ******* DEVELOPER, X264 DEVELOPER is this god damn dumb that he must experiment with some amateur's program to draw conclusions about a video standard that he himself programmed the best implementation for? WOW. I never......

Oh well, I've witnessed such rampant fucktardery elsewhere. My buddy who has a Ph.D in computer science still needs to be lectured about simple, obvious things and tends to get quite political about issues that are otherwise concrete and straightforward. I think this is what they call "Asspergers syndrome" or some shit.

Thanks. I have an idea.

Whatever it is, always make sure the hip bone is attached to the dick bone, because you'll never successfully penetrate the problem without that key boner, erm--bone. Good luck!

[sanlyn]

Gosh, mephesto, if I take you to heart I can't use Avisynth. If I take the opposition to heart, I can't use VirtualDub. Must be something wrong here: I use both. Each app groans and sputters a bit (usually because I type the wrong key or click the wrong icon. Ever heard of anyone doing that? Dumb software, should be able to read our minds). Your explanations for Avisynth faults (there are many) sound more or less plausible, but too many technical terms and phrases can be...well, confounding.

[Mephesto]

sanlyn, I use both too. I'm not bashing the program, I'm bashing the moronic nerdpride pimping flawed systems at the expense of a healthy balance of tools that do exactly what they do and do it best, but they love to make a religion out of the most concrete possible concept ever known to man: one or zero, works or doesn't.

So much of my time and effort wasted just to discover something I have already known since the very start. Oh but they are devs, they know what's good for me, and I'm somehow the one being the dick here. Sick of these fucks.

[sanlyn]

In general, agreed. Pro aspirations, strictly amateur presentation. As another flawed individual once said, I feel your pain. Maybe I don't get quite so riled these days; after about 80% of my attempts with Avisynth go down in flames, I just shake my head and say Why am I not surprised?. Just spent 1.5 hours trying to figure why 2 of my PC's can open an m4v with DirectShowSource but the PC I'm typing on right now couldn't do it. Add another hour following more than 10 dead links in doom9 to download a fix, then found it here in the Tools section. Really, it shouldn't be that difficult.

[jagabo]

The problem with AviSynth and third party filters is that there's little planning and organization between the different developers. One guy updates his filter and some of the others break. Then those other guys have to update their filters and some other filters break. It's an endless cycle. It is what it is.

[Gavino]

Just spent 1.5 hours trying to figure why 2 of my PC's can open an m4v with DirectShowSource but the PC I'm typing on right now couldn't do it.

Come on, sanlyn, that's not really an Avisynth problem.
DirectShowSource does exactly what it says and relies on the DirectShow components installed on your system to open and decode a media file (just like, for example, Windows Media Player).

Yes, it can be frustrating trying to get some of the more complex Avisynth third party functions to work together, but you've picked a poor example here to illustrate the point.

[sanlyn]

Maybe it's my Google search string, gavino, or whatever. I realize what you're saying. I started with "Avisynth DirectShowSource". No one-stop-shopping source for that, so I added "m4v", but only "mp4" showed up. And so on. What was on the other 2 (older ) PC's that worked OK? It took a while to get a handle on that one, but it led to ffdshow and to MPEG4 splitters. So eventually I did track everything down. The point I was trying to make: if you're just starting to figure out these complications, it helps to have started a very long time ago. Hasn't been that long for me, and I confess I mostly left Avisynth alone for about 3 years. So I'm trying to say, it's more daunting than it oughtta be.

Of course I could have posted the question about m4v in a post in this forum straightaway. And likely as not, you or jagabo or another knowledgeable member would have posted the solution (for which we all thank you and others, you are invaluable members here and elsewhere). I was just about to do that when I found the answer myself. I realize there's no fix for dead Doom9 links from 2005; that sort of thing just comes with the territory on any forum, and no way to clean up 10 years of old links.

Then there's this stubborn, grandiose ambition of mine to figure out everything for myself. I should know better by now. I'm not that smart.

[unclescoob]

I WOULD LIKE TO PRESENT A CHALLENGE:

Considering that on prior posts, when I was discussing my attempt to figure out Avisynth (this was a thread I started sometime late 2010), people just kept parroting how Avisynth is "so powerful" and how "once I figure it out I'll wonder why I lived so long without it" aside from other senseless babble, let me call the bluff.

Between then and now, I've learned my way around Avisynth, although very little. Hey, at least I know the basics and use it regularly. I don't think it's so bad. It's probably "Ok", at best. So here's a small challenge I'm going to post for all to see. And Manono ignores me, but considering the fact that he is one of the "seasoned veterans" of this stuff, I would like for him to partake in this challenge as well...and put aside our prior disagreements. So if anyone stays in touch with him...bring him over! Tell him to show his stuff. Alan HK too.

My work involves cleaning video fron noise and my goal is to obtain the cleanest possible picture. Some temporal smoothers do a great job at this, as we know. But we also know that, in spite of the tons of temporal cleaners/smoothers available in Avisynth/Virtualdub, the biggest issue, even with the best smoothers, is the blurring and ghosting results due to edge filtering.

MCTemporalDenoise is obviously not wanting to load for me. In spite of all the DLLs, and me properly adding what is needed to my System32 folder, etc. Whatever, to hell with it.

Here's the challenge, and I cannot present it any simpler: I want a substitute. I want a script that will allow me to mask the edges on CARTOONS, and I want to be able to incorporate ANY Temporal Smoother that I so choose to use on my clip, and not have remaining blurring/ghosting/artifacts.

If I can be presented with this script, THEN, and ONLY THEN, will I agree that Avisynth is ahem uh..."powerful" as so many parrot from each other. Avisynth is so impressive, powerful, and flexible huh? It can do anything you ask it to do huh? Well based on my experience with it, I don't believe it. So go on then. That's my request. Prove me wrong.

And those that have seen my threads here know that I have absolutely no qualms about eating my words. In fact, this is one issue where I not only hope I'm dead wrong...I'm begging for it!

So there it is. Anybody?

[unclescoob]

I would also gladly contribute in monetary form to Avisynth and/or VideoHelp.com, as a token of my gratitude. And as an appreciation for good programs and assistance.

[sanlyn]

MCTemporalDenoise is obviously not wanting to load for me. In spite of all the DLLs, and me properly adding what is needed to my System32 folder, etc. Whatever, to hell with it.

Don't quite understand what you mean by "not wanting to load for me". Are you running the previous script in VirtualDub or in AvsPMod? Do you get an error message? Others have problems loading complex filters and I did, too, but the precise error message and/or a copy of the script always provides the solution.

My experience is that MCTD as presented in this thread isn't "blurring edges". Until you tell us something more specific about its behavior -- or misbehavior -- on your system, there's not much anyone could do. But I agree, many smoothers just smooth too much, depending on how they're used or what they're designed to do.

The kind of masking you mention: many readers might have other advice, but it seems you'd need something like After Effects or maybe Vegas Pro for that. But I don't know every app or plugin out there. Just what is meant by "edge masking"? I've seen techniques for doing that, but with different effects in mind. Perhaps you could post an image or clip to show exactly what you mean.

Earlier some filtered versions of your video were submitted. Did you see blurring or other problems? Were you satisfied with the results? Haven't seen any response in that regard.

[unclescoob]

Don't quite understand what you mean by "not wanting to load for me"

I copied and pasted the .avsi script to my plugins folder. The fftw3 folder was copied and pasted to my Systems 32 folder as well, and in my plugins folder. If I try to load a simple script for testing, such as McTemporalDenoise (settings=high), I get the following message on AvsPmod:
"FFT3DFilter: cannot load FFTW3.DLL

Virtualdub won't even touch it.

Are you running the previous script in VirtualDub or in AvsPMod? Do you get an error message?

"FFT3DFilter: cannot load FFTW3.DLL

Until you tell us something more specific about its behavior -- or misbehavior -- on your system, there's not much anyone could do.

"FFT3DFilter: cannot load FFTW3.DLL

The kind of masking you mention: many readers might have other advice, but it seems you'd need something like After Effects or maybe Vegas Pro for that.

I thought Avisynth was all-powerful, all-knowing, all-flexible and capable of anything I wanted it to do, and the sky's the limit. That's what they preach here, anyway. Surely such a "powerful" tool can do something that's, rather simple if you ask me.

Just what is meant by "edge masking"?

Masking edges, so that the temporal filter won't touch them, hence avoiding blurring/ghosting.

Earlier some filtered versions of your video were submitted. Did you see blurring or other problems? Were you satisfied with the results?

It looked pretty damn good. There was still some slight flickering, but considering it's a very noisy video with strong luma random noise in that particular scene, it was good. I know you did it with MCTemporal, and again, looked great. Thanks! But it serves no purpose for me if I can't load the damn thing and do it myself.

[jagabo]

The fftw3 folder was copied and pasted to my Systems 32 folder as well

fftw3 folder? No, just put the fftw3.dll in your \windows\system32\ folder:

C:\Windows\System32\fftw3.dll

[jagabo]

I thought Avisynth was all-powerful, all-knowing, all-flexible and capable of anything I wanted it to do, and the sky's the limit.

It's a tool that's flexible and extendible. It's up to you to learn how to use it.

[unclescoob]

It's a tool that's flexible and extendible. It's up to you to learn how to use it.

That does not answer the question. Can I use Avisynth to mask edges, AND use the Temporal Smoother of my choice, or can I not? Simple yes, or no answer.

[unclescoob]

just put the fftw3.dll in your \windows\system32\ folder:

That is what I did, I just said that. I copied the file from the zip file I opened, and attached it to my system32 folder.

[poisondeathray]

That does not answer the question. Can I use Avisynth to mask edges, AND use the Temporal Smoother of my choice, or can I not? Simple yes, or no answer.

Usually not - that approach is fundamentally flawed with temporal smoothing, but can work with temporal cleaners to protect edge overfiltering.

An edge mask won't necessarily help with ghosting artifacts caused by overzealous temporal smoothing. The distinction is temporal smoothing will AVERAGE multiple frames - that' s the purpose of a temporal smoother - but that's why you get ghosting in the first place. Temporal denoising is not necessarily the same thing as temporal smoothing. Using strong temporal smoothing settings will average over maybe 6-7 frames, so an "edge" is not really limited to an edge anymore. Think of it as multiple different exposures . e.g. if a camera pans left to right and you have a cartoon charater in the frame, the "edge" of the cartoon character will now cover the whole frame over 6-7 frames in 6-7 different locations - the whole frame will be masked out! So if you mask out edges before applying the temporal smoother, there are no longer lines to delinate object edges, so you will end up with blurry mess . But if you apply the overlay approach and mask out the edges to apply overlay using mt_merge or overlay - this won't work either. Although the the overlay will protect the lines, the ghosting will have already occured on the bottom layer from your strong temporal smoothing settings. Your edge mask would have to be exceedingly large to cover the ghosting.

The underlying problem is using too strong temoral smoothing settings. A better approach is to avoid the ghosting in the first place by using another approach or filters

[unclescoob]

A better approach is to avoid the ghosting in the first place by using another approach or filters

Which ones?

[unclescoob]

Usually not - that approach is fundamentally flawed with temporal smoothing, but can work with temporal cleaners to protect edge overfiltering.

No problem. I'll use the cleaner instead of the smoother. Now how do I use Avisynth to mask my edges?

[poisondeathray]

Which ones?

Of course it would depend on the source specifics .

Now how do I use Avisynth to mask my edges?

One way is to use mt_edge or edgemask. There are examples if you search. MCTD uses edgemasks routines. Some people have written functions that incorporate edgemasks in the cleaning functions, look for them at doom9 . With masktools, there are many subfunctions you can use to refine the mask, like expansion, contraction . This isn't something that's going to be as easy as applying somefilter() and calling it a day.

Usually you would only bother , if the cleaners and settings you are using are erroding the edges too much (lines gets over filtered and are no longer distinct and become "ratty"). This is a different problem than the ghosting caused by strong temoporal smoothing filters

[jagabo]

Masking edges makes no sense in temporal filtering. What you want to do is adjust the pixel difference threshold. For example, lthresh and cthresh in TTEmpSmooth().

[unclescoob]

Avisynth is as basic as anything else. That's my conclusion from all this. Mefesto was right. Sanlyn was right about Avisynth use usually resulting in 80% disappointments. Avisynth, Virtualdub...folks, pick your tool and be happy. But this should be a nice lesson to AvisynthMongerers: It is useful, it does a decent job, it frameserves into the nicest encoder ever (HcEnc)..but powerful?

Eeeeeeeh

[sanlyn]

If you're using a 64-bit Vista/W7 machine, copy fftw3.dll into the SysWOW64 folder located in the Windows folder.
fft3dfilter.dll goes in the avisynth plugins folder.
On my PC's, it takes about 20 seconds for everything to load and get started.

Maybe you need to specifically register the darn dll (that would be unsual, but I've seen it happen). Click on the Windows "START" button and enter this in the "Run" command:

REGSVR32 C:\Windows\System32\fft3w.dll

then run it. You should get a message saying it went OK.

If that still doesn't, you can unregister the dll with this command:

REGSVR32 /u C:\Windows\System32\fft3w.dll

Ghosting, though, I don't see. The original video has visible chroma bleed and edge artifacts (mosquito noise, etc.) but MCTD cleared almost all of it. There's a bit of softening going on - you can't clear all that noise without some smoothing, but you can get around it in a couple of ways:

(200% frame blowup) Original: chroma bleed, smearing along edges, lots of chroma noise all over the place, etc. Lines in the original aren't all that sharp to begin with. Check the noise at bthe desk edge, the gal's eyelids, edge of hair, etc. You can see that the original has color blurs around most edges to begin with. The girl's lips are blurred and ragged.

[Attachment 10384 - Click to enlarge]

(200% frame blowup) MCTD version at "very high" setting used earlier. Cleaner edges and darker lines, but one could say it's a bit "softer" than the original. But edges are better delineated than in the original.

[Attachment 10385 - Click to enlarge]

(200% frame blowup) MCTD lowered to "high" and followed with NeatVideo's sharpener at 40% and very low denoise settings (almost off, in fact), mainly just to avoid recurring artifacts that are often found after re-sharpening.

[Attachment 10386 - Click to enlarge]

You can use other sharpeners, but NeatVideo's is about the cleanest I've used. Be careful with sharpeners, though, or you'll get ringing and edge brightening you don't want. Never sharpen until after you've denoised as much as possible.

[jagabo]

Avisynth is as basic as anything else.

No, AviSynth is more basic than anything else. Basically, AviSynth is a tool for building tools.

[Mephesto]

I didn't test this but I think you might be able to isolate edges by subtracting the original frame with a resized one and working with that video, then adding the edges back.

original=avisource("C:\video.avi").Lanczosresize(640,480)
resized=avisource("C:\video.avi").Lanczosresize(320,240).Lanczosresize(640,480)

edgesisolated=subtract(original,resized)

temporallydenoised=subtract(original,edgesisolated)#.MCtemporaldenoise(or whatever)

#Not sure if there is an "add" function but all thats left would be to add the "resized" to "temporallydenoised" to get your edges back

[jagabo]

I don't really deal with noise reduction. But here's sample1.m2v without mctd. Some low contrast details were lost though.

[sanlyn]

Nice work, jagabo. I got pretty much the same thing with temporal soften, DeFlick and NeatVideo (well, I cheated a bit and ran RemoveSpots() first). The heavy red balance was giving me fits.

[jagabo]

I used Stab, DeFlick, 2dCleaner, TTempSmooth, and RemoveSpots. And for fun Santiag, AwarpSharp, FastLineDarkenMod, and LSFMod.

[sanlyn]

I used Stab, DeFlick, 2dCleaner, TTempSmooth, and RemoveSpots. And for fun Santiag, AwarpSharp, FastLineDarkenMod, and LSFMod.

For fun? I would have run out of breath after RemoveSpots . Come to think of it, I looked at my script just now and found that Stab() was still in there. I'd try it all over again, but I'm starting to see this clip in my sleep.

[jagabo]

Oh, I forgot to mention TFM, TDecimate, and Trim at the very start. And Crop after Stab, and AddBorders at the end to restore the frame size.