HcEnc: brief periods of pixelation

[unclescoob]

Manono, let's just clear some things up here before we move on. Actually, there is not much "moving on" to do, as my original dilemma was only occuring with one particular video, and has been resolved :

This website is called Videohelp.com. Not promoteavisynth.org. Avisynth serves it's purpose, and so does Virtualdub. Some people use AviSynth for particular reasons, as they utilize Virtualdub with other goals in mind. If you are not one of those dual-tool users, that's nice. What you are stating, in essence, is that Avery Lee is a moron who had no clue what he was doing when he developed Virtualdub, and that Virtualdub is overall, a useless tool, and always has been. You are also pretty much (arrogantly, as you usually do) indicating that other well-known video restorers who use Virtualdub don't know what they're doing. Let's not pretend that you and I have not had exchanges here in the past due to your coming off as a conceited, arrogant prick.

You throw around terms like "better" every time you mention an Avisynth filter. Then you arrogantly state that you don't and (wont') use Neatvideo. Well that is very nice, Manono and that is also your decision. Thousands of others who know how to use it and love it, and have seen magnificent results cannot be wrong. Of course, I am just ONE of the thousands, but don't ask me.

I'm sure Avisynth has nice filters. Neatvideo makes my work look great, it works wonderful with whatever other VIRTUALDUB filter I choose to use with it, and that is all that matters. Yes, manono I am "married" to Neatvideo. Care to partake in the reception?

I came here for encoding advice, not to have Avisynth shoved down my throat (as I don't need this done to me, since Avisynth serves it's purpose for me as well). Nonetheless, the ENCODING advice was given to me, I followed it and I no longer have the problem. I'm not putting up any 10 second, or 5 second, or 15 second samples because I do not need any suggestions on how to "do it the better way". My problem has been resolved. IVTC worked, as you and jagabo advised and thank you very much.

I wish you well and further progreess with Avisynth, as I (and many others) continue to make progress with Virtualdub.

Enjoy your evening (or day, depending on when you read this)

[poisondeathray]

Manono, let's just clear some things up here before we move on. Actually, there is not much "moving on" to do, as my original dilemma was only occuring with one particular video, and has been resolved :

This website is called Videohelp.com. Not promoteavisynth.org. Avisynth serves it's purpose, and so does Virtualdub. Some people use AviSynth for particular reasons, as they utilize Virtualdub with other goals in mind. If you are not one of those dual-tool users, that's nice. What you are stating, in essence, is that Avery Lee is a moron who had no clue what he was doing when he developed Virtualdub, and that Virtualdub is overall, a useless tool, and always has been. You are also pretty much (arrogantly, as you usually do) indicating that other well-known video restorers who use Virtualdub don't know what they're doing. Let's not pretend that you and I have not had exchanges here in the past due to your coming off as a conceited, arrogant prick.

WTF ??. He didn't say any of that, and his comments seem very reasonable. Don't put words into other people's mouths. What's with the manono hatin ?

Well, I don't (and won't) use NeatVideo, so if that one's a necessity you'll have to do as you say - either use VDub or use it in an AviSynth script (which doesn't help much as it'll still require you to convert to RGB and back). All the rest have their (better) AviSynth equivalents and don't require the colorspace conversion. Some of the better AviSynth denoisers/cleaners are slow so the idea of making an intermediary lossless AVI is a good one. If you're married to NeatVideo, then you have no choice but to do it your way, I don't think. But if you'd put up a small 10 second sample as suggested by both me and jagabo, we might be able to suggest other ways to achieve your goal.

Manono is just suggesting best pratices. Did you ignore his explanation as to some reasons WHY an alternative workflow might be better ? Of course it's up to you to make whatever quality tradeoffs you're comfortable with.

Vdub is great, but there are some filters that are unavailable or don't work well in avisynth, and vice versa in vdub. They both have strengths and weaknesses. For example , try to do curves adjustments in avisynth. Very difficult.

1) Don't discount the effect of colorspace conversions. This is what manono was getting at. You incur quality loss with each conversion - Color edges will become more blurry . It's impact is more noticable on animation because of uniform color borders. If you need an RGB filter, this is unavoidable (e.g. you might be using RGB curves), but it's better to stay in the same colorspace and avoid uncessary quality loss. You can often find similar filters that work in Y'CbCr, the DVD's native colorspace. This negative effects of colorspace conversions has been discussed extensively, with examples and pictures, you can use search. If you want me to illustrate this I can whip up a demonstration

2) The problem with your current workflow is that you should IVTC before vdub, don't load mpeg2 directly. Why?

If someone says: "well I'll just use vdub's IVTC." Well vdub's IVTC filter is non adaptive - so things like cadence breaks and edit points will cause combed frames and artifacts (often older animation is edited while still interlaced)

Some filters that you use in vdub (or avisynth) won't be as effective on hard telecined material. Even if you treat it as interlaced, there are duplicate fields - so things like temporal filters , temporal cleaners , dirt removal won't work as well or be as accurate. These type of filters work by looking at differences between frames. Duplicate frames severely limit the effectiveness of those filters.

You're processing 20% more fields with hard telecined material. Not only is this a waste of time, your exported "AVI" intermediate will be larger, need more HDD space, etc...

3) Most vdub filters work in RGB, and you have no control over the RGB conversion in vdub. It uses Rec601. This might be ok for standard DVD release, but you clip superbrights and superdarks in Y'CbCr material. Overshoots are legal and common in retail dvd's and part of the spec (This is why Y' is supposed to be 16-235, for overshoot). If you were doing captures, or even editing home videos - that clipping means you cannot recover that superbright data - it's clipped, not clamped (ie. forever gone)

(This is also inappropriate conversion matrix for HD content (should be using Rec709), but that doesn't affect you in this specific case)

[manono]

What you are stating, in essence, is that Avery Lee is a moron who had no clue what he was doing when he developed Virtualdub, and that Virtualdub is overall, a useless tool, and always has been.

pdr pretty much rebutted that one better than I ever could (thanks much, pdr), but I think Avery Lee is a genius. I've been using VDub and its offshoots for - what? - over ten years now. I'll be starting a long-term capture project soon and plan on using VDub for that. Nothing you said can be further from the truth and you're making things up out of thin air. I've used VDub and its offshoots for probably over 3-4,000 different encodes over the course of time. I have over 1,100 encodes on YouTube alone, all created using VDub(Mod) (and AviSynth). Do you still think I find it a useless tool?

I'll admit to preferring AviSynth over filtering in VDub whenever possible (even more so when the final output format is to be MPEG-2 video). Why? Because of the interests of speed, encoding efficiency, and quality. Sometimes, as when I have to do some color work in AviSynth filters, I have to switch in and out of RGB, but when possible I'll do everything within it and avoid as much as possible any colorspace conversions. Even though I think you're a first-class jerk who can't hide his true colors for long, I've bent over backwards trying to be even-tempered and fair with you in this thread. And this is the thanks I get. Such is life.

Just out of curiosity, what did you change to get rid of your pixelation in that one video?

[unclescoob]

I'm going to respond to you both this evening. But in the meantime, it would be nice if you took a look at this:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news/3647-video-sites-become.html

[manono]

lordsmurf's a fine fellow and gave a very evenhanded response. When I say I don't and won't use NeatVideo, that's just my opinion. I couldn't care less whether you or anyone else use it. When you claim I think VDub useless then, geez, I don't think any of the filters you mentioned were even developed by Avery Lee. So how does one get from me not using VDub filters if at all possible to me thinking Avery Lee a moron and VDub useless? Grasping at straws, maybe? And those filters are old. Filters are continually being written and improved. And most of those new and improved filters are now being written for AviSynth.

lordsmurf would probably have had to have read your thread more carefully to have kept from making a couple of odd statements:

unclescoob: What is the best way to find out what I'm working with here? Would g-spot tell me?
lordsmurf: No, Gspot won't help,

Since you had already told us the source had been telecined, then GSpot most certainly will tell you if it's hard or soft telecine, and just the way I described.

unclescoob: My source is a 29.97fps NTSC retail DVD.
lordsmurf: Even hearing something like this, I don't jump too quickly to the conclusion that the footage is guarantee hard interlaced, and not possible to IVTC.

Either I'm missing something or else that's a complete non sequitur. All NTSC DVDs output (interlaced) 29.97fps and, again, we've already established this is telecined film of one sort or another and not pure interlace.

Other than those two things I have nothing to say against his response. I don't knock those that use VDub for whatever reason. Use whatever you like. I gave my own opinions, worth about what you paid for them.

[unclescoob]

I've bent over backwards trying to be even-tempered and fair with you in this thread. And this is the thanks I get. Such is life.

Oh poor me!!!

Please, spare us the Shakesperean tragedies and stop playing the damsel in distress. You come off as a jerk, and that's why you get what you get. And you know it.

Besides, that dress is certainly not you!

When I say I don't and won't use NeatVideo, that's just my opinion. I couldn't care less whether you or anyone else use it.

And you're absolutely right. Except that you didn't leave it at that. You felt the need to add that I am "married" to it, in a most arrogant, judgmental manner. As if to say "well it's that what you use, that's your problem". Then you continued to prod with your Avisynth gibberish. Keeping in mind of course that I didn't come here asking for opinions about NeatVideo, Virtualdub OR Avisynth. I came here with an encoding question which could have been resolved in two or three posts. Didn't realize it was going to turn into the Manono Show.

Manono, I've seen your response to others (not just me). When someone asks for advice, instead of giving the advice, explaining why you're giving it, and moving on, you feel that the individual (s) should fellate you. You come off as an arrogant egomaniac purist who can't just lend a hand without pulling out the "I wrote Matrices for HcEnc and have status in videohelp.com" credentials (and cheers to you for that, by the way!).

As a result, some individuals (certainly not I) may feel a bit intimidated and not wish to really hear from you anymore (in spite of all the knowledge you may possess!) because you come off like a conceited wiseass. Me? I like you the way the Joker likes Batman. He keeps him entertained. WHAT WOULD I DO WITHOUT YOU???

I have fun with you, Manono! . You know who you remind me of? AlanHK, he used to crack me up before he put me on ignore! I sure miss her!


Then of course, like my 3 year old, when I've had enough of your nonsense I simply "send you to your room". Right Chowmein? Hey, you have your little henchman--PDR! (sorry, I coughed ); I'm entitled to one as well.

I gave my own opinions, worth about what you paid for them.

You couldn't be more right.

[unclescoob]

And with that folks, I'm done. My problem is solved, my work continues to do well and...well...voila!

Oh Manono? Don't let that little farce ruin your friendship with me here. The next time I come here for advice, show up ok? I like you! I really do.

[manono]

Since you seem incapable of making logical arguments and responses, then there's no point in trying to making any of my own. Since you have such a fertile imagination that you can make barefaced lies seem as if you actually believe what you're saying, then what's the point? I mean (among others):

I wrote Matrices for HcEnc and have status in videohelp.com

I've never created any matrices for HCEnc (or for anything else, as far as that goes) and I have no idea where you dreamed that one up. Nor do I have any status here. If I have any anywhere, it's at a different site. So I'll do you a favor and withdraw from this discussion. That'll leave you only poisondeathray to ridicule, and doing so will further your slide down the ladder of credibility even more (if that's possible).

[El Heggunte]

I've never created any matrices for HCEnc (or for anything else, as far as that goes) and I have no idea where you dreamed that one up.

Possibly from the pages 17 and 18 of the file "HC02x.pdf"
However (and sadly) hank315 forgot to mention the actual reason why he (or someone else) named those matrices with your "webname"

[chowmein]

Then of course, like my 3 year old, when I've had enough of your nonsense I simply "send you to your room". Right Chowmein?

Heh? Whoa leave me outa this! As I've said before, manono is a wealth of valuable information and I have great respect for him here on videohelp! I also agree with him about avisynth having the edge over Vdub pluhins etc.

[manono]

You come off as an arrogant egomaniac purist who can't just lend a hand without pulling out the "I wrote Matrices for HcEnc and have status in videohelp.com" credentials

El Heggunte, what he said is quite a bit different from finding 3 matrices in an 'HC02x.pdf', a document that has nothing whatsoever to do with videohelp.com, the website. And just to be clear, I don't 'write' (as in 'create') matrices. I collect them from retail DVDs. Hank asked to include a few, I agreed, and I had nothing to do with their naming.

But I don't suppose one can expect anything remotely resembling the truth or a rational discussion from someone that once gloatingly claimed Windows DVD Maker had the best MPEG-2 encoder of them all:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/337778-Hank-s-Mpeg-2-Encoder?p=2098570&viewfull=1#post2098570

[chowmein]

manono should be a moderator here, and write more guides too!

unclescoob: This forum is THE best, most informative & chilled forum out there. Any general technical computer questions, let alone video-specific stuff, are already answered right here. Doom9 is informative too, but there is a snobbiness/elitism there that irks me. Not so here! As for science/physics forums... I think I've been kicked out of every one that exists! So much uptight conservatism in science/astronomy forums... But I digress. Videohelp forums rule, and you must know that, deep down inside that cynical pot-fuelled heart of yours!

[El Heggunte]

@ manono: Thanks for making things crystal-clear (again).

Of course I already knew you are a "respected veteran" @ both Doom9 and VideoHelp forums,

however many(/most) "casual lurkers" still do(/did) not.

[unclescoob]

"pdr pretty much rebutted that one better than I ever could (thanks much, pdr)"

"lordsmurf's a fine fellow and gave a very evenhanded response"


"manono is a wealth of valuable information and I have great respect for him"

"@ manono: Thanks for making things crystal-clear (again)."

"Of course I already knew you are a "respected veteran" @ both Doom9 and VideoHelp forums"

"manono should be a moderator here, and write more guides too! "


Are you all finished sucking each other off?

[Baldrick]

Yes. Thread closed.