MSS2 Conversion Problem

[Mc128k]

Hi all!
I'm new to the forums, so if I make any mistake please excuse me.
As you may know CBTNuggets makes video lessons in weird formats, to preserve quality and compression. I have my files compressed in MSS2 WMV, which is for desktop-recording. The files are very light, but I can't open them in Macs or iDevices (my iPad for example), the format is not supported anywhere.
I would like to convert them to a more popular format, like MP4 or MOV, or even AVI, but the problem is that they increase in size; for example a 11Mb file becomes more than 150Mb with any compression tool (H264/Xvid).

Is it possible to make smaller files? I can't fill my fileserver with videos, disks aren't cheap.

 _____ _                 _     __   __          _ 
|_   _| |               | |    \ \ / /         | |
  | | | |__   __ _ _ __ | | __  \ V /___  _   _| |
  | | | '_ \ / _` | '_ \| |/ /   \ // _ \| | | | |
  | | | | | | (_| | | | |   <    | | (_) | |_| |_|
  \_/ |_| |_|\__,_|_| |_|_|\_\   \_/\___/ \__,_(_)

[Baldrick]

How do you convert now?

You must lower the bitrate to get smaller file size.

[Mc128k]

Tried it! As I lower the bitrate some fast parts get a bad quality (how can I say it?), there's a "pixel effect".
As you can imagine there are some steady moments and some other with much movement, so it would be nice to use a VBR. In fact I tried it, but the file got 600Mb from 11Mb... Maybe lowering the fps could work?

[dragonkeeper]

Not familiar with CBTNuggets, what format is the original file? Can yuo use mediainfo or MPC to cive us some idea what type of video you're dealing with? please copy paste details here:

[Mc128k]

Told you!

WMV MSS2 format, windows media proprietary.
Can't upload copyrighted work. Sorry.

[Baldrick]

But you can post the details, like bitrate, resolution, frame size, etc.

[dragonkeeper]

Told you!

WMV MSS2 format, windows media proprietary.
Can't upload copyrighted work. Sorry.

But you can post the details, like bitrate, resolution, frame size, etc.

As baldrick stated we don't need the actually video,we only need to see the details of the video
Video details frames per second, bitrate, frame size

I believe you should be able to achieve similar quality using x264, i find x264 to be more efficient at compressing video than Microsoft's proprietary codec.

[Mc128k]

Told you!

WMV MSS2 format, windows media proprietary.
Can't upload copyrighted work. Sorry.

But you can post the details, like bitrate, resolution, frame size, etc.

As baldrick stated we don't need the actually video,we only need to see the details of the video
Video details frames per second, bitrate, frame size

I believe you should be able to achieve similar quality using x264, i find x264 to be more efficient at compressing video than Microsoft's proprietary codec.

I think it's not actually the case...
The format is very peculiar, it's not video compression, it's animation! The codec is only made for screen recording and moving parts, like windows and pointers.
I can only get few specs about the file. Trust me it's not easy to compress, because it's like a flash object. The file itself is light, but it's hard for the processor to decode.
Here's the specs:
Video:
Codec: MSS2
Res: 800x600
FPS: 15.000015
Data rate: 14kbps
Video sample size: 24 bit

Audio:
Codec: Windows Media Audio Voice (Speech) WMAS
Channels: 1
Freq: 22050Hz
Sample size: 16bits
Bitrate: 261kbps

The "14kbps" is meaningless. I took it from the Properties menu.

Thank you very much.

[dragonkeeper]

I think it's not actually the case...
it's not video compression, it's animation!The codec is only made for screen recording and moving parts, like windows and pointers.

Regardless its still a steam of moving pictures, and based on the file sizes you have mentioned some type of compressions being used in the original file. There are many similar products available on the Camtasia Studio, Snag-it and Wink come to mind.
Lets start over what tools have you tried using and what were your settings?

Edit:I've been trying to find a MSS2 encoded file to play around with but no luck.

[Mc128k]

Used mainly Aimersoft and AVIRecomp. Also tried other tools with little success (Handbrake, windows media encoder, SUPER, etc.)
Both h264 and Xvid gave huge files. Maintaining aspect ratio and fps to original. Video was blurry. Hard to read. I think I will post the file...

[dragonkeeper]

Used mainly Aimersoft and AVIRecomp. Also tried other tools with little success (Handbrake, windows media encoder, SUPER, etc.)

I would try ripbot264 or Megui, both generate a avisyth file that can be tweak to your needs. In this case perhaps some sharping filetrs will help, or you could increase resolution by 2-4x sharpen the image then reduce to desired resolution.

I will post the file...

Having anything at all to work with would be most beneficial.

[Mc128k]

Ok, here's a file.
Please do not share.

[bat999]

Ok, here's a file.

I converted the file using a 32-bit Linux machine and Mencoder compiled with "all-20110131" codecs from here:-
http://www.mplayerhq.hu/MPlayer/releases/codecs

Using a command like this:-

mencoder ccent10.wmv -o ccent10.avi -ovc lavc -oac mp3lame

The size of the 5.6MB wmv file increased to 47.2MB when converted to avi.
Maybe Mencoder can use x264 and faac codecs to produce mp4 instead of avi, this would create smaller files.

I don't have access to a Mac machine.

EDIT
The size of the 47.2MB avi file can be reduced to 18.1MB by using mov container.
I converted it like this:-

ffmpeg -i ccent10.avi -vcodec copy -acodec copy ccent10.mov

(Sent you a PM)

[Mc128k]

AWESOME!!!
THIS IS FANTASTIC!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!
I never managed to get a file so small! The quality is incredible!!
All I need to do is install linux on a powerful machine. I will try!

Thank you!!!

[poisondeathray]

As suggested earlier you can get good compression with x264 / aac

You can use x264 through quicktime component on a mac
http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/mycometg3/

Although the settings required for such compression might not be compatible for ipad, it will stream fine on flash for webpages

MSS2 gets a large part of it's compression by using a reduced color palette, and gradients are posterized (think low quality gif images), but it's suitable for slide show type presentations

Most flash formats are chroma subsampled 4:2:0, so thin lines and thin red text will look more blurred compared to MSS2 or any RGB format

[bat999]

All I need to do is install linux on a powerful machine. I will try!

Hi
Now that you've posted the wmv file one of the other guys will maybe suggest a Windows or Mac solution.
The problem is that FFmpeg can't handle that MSS2 video codec, so converters built around FFmpeg are no use here (eg Handbrake, WinFF).
EDIT
I see that poisondeathray has used quicktime.

[poisondeathray]

Actually I used Windows, but I just pointed out a Mac option for x264 through quicktime

I just played with ffmpeg and it seems to work fine with that file ? I used a precompiled windows binary from
http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/

So theoretically he could use ffmpeg OSX binary, although I would avoid faac for audio, and use maybe quicktime aac instead

EDIT: sorry my bad, ffmpeg does seem to have problems; it identifies mss2 ok, but seems to have issues converting the pixel format. I'll look into it farther

[dragonkeeper]

Perhaps its just me, but in each of the files that have been posted (with the exception of the avi posted by bat999) the audio and video are not syncing up as they were in the original file. I'm having the same problem with my attempts as well. The first slide of the presentation flashes momentarily, where as in the original file it was on screen for almost a minute.

[bat999]

where as in the original file it was on screen for almost a minute.

Hi
I think you're right.
Slide changes at approx 00:50 with my avi/mov version.

[poisondeathray]

@dragonkeeper - you're right, the intro frames are misplaced and appear at the end

looks like mencoder is decoding the frames in proper order

dss2 seems gets the frames in order, but directshowsource doesn't for some reason, but both use same decoder...

[dragonkeeper]

the intro frames are misplaced and appear at the end

I'm not sure that's the case. i remember early on when working with odd audio files (mono, or anything lower than 44.1 sample rate) the video would speed up. And once MPC ran out of video it just seem to either start the video again or stop on the first frame while the audio continued.

Edit:
Adding the frame rate and setting convert Fps to true in the avisynth script seems to fix the issue.
video=DirectShowSource("N:\Anime\ccent10.wmv", fps=15, convertfps=true, audio=false).ConvertToYV12()

sample video. (Just under 5mb)
cent10.mkv

[poisondeathray]

Yes it seems ok with the convertfps

But he won't be able to use directshow or avisynth without a PC. Maybe mencoder is the way to go ? You can encode x264 with mencoder, but I'm not sure of the syntax, it's slightly different than x264 CLI

And why would mencoder work , when ffmpeg fails ? They use the same libraries

[bat999]

And why would mencoder work , when ffmpeg fails ? They use the same libraries

With Linux....
The standard mencoder won't work.
It needs to be compiled with the extra codecs (post #13).
FFplay won't play it, but mPlayer (when compiled with extra codecs) will play it.

I don't know whether this applies to Windows and Mac systems.

[poisondeathray]

I see - it's a special build. I wonder if that "all" package can be compiled for mac or windows ? Some of the other packages specifically say Mac or Windows, but that one doesn't

I would think there should be something comparable for ffmpeg floating around...

But if he's planning to build a linux rig, it would be easier to use mencoder then. There should be some websites for the x264 syntax that mencoder uses

But for the audio I would avoid faac, maybe use neroaac or quicktime aac

[dragonkeeper]

But he won't be able to use directshow or avisynth without a PC.

And why would mencoder work , when ffmpeg fails ? They use the same libraries

It seems the OP has a PC he mentioned using Super and Windows Media Encoder, the OP also mentioned not being able to open MSS2 files on Macs so it seems their MAC has not been configured to decode mss2 files?

I'm stumped as to why ffmpeg fails to decode properly, I've even tried setting fps at command line and received the same result.

[bat999]

sample video. (Just under 5mb)
cent10.mkv

Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

[dragonkeeper]

Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

That's odd..
it works for me anyone else having issue with the file i posted?

here it is again.

[bat999]

here it is again.

That's smart.
Very compact.


I haven't learned how to use x264 with Mencoder yet (life's too short).

But I've modified my commands to use mpeg4/aac in mp4 container. Size 12.1MB:-

mencoder ccent10.wmv -o ccent10.avi -ovc lavc -oac copy && \
ffmpeg -i ccent10.avi -c:v copy -c:a libfaac -aq 120 ccent10.mp4

[poisondeathray]

There are a number of settings that can be used to optimize x264 encodes , temporal filtering , but another method that people use to reduce the video stream size on this type of material (slideshow-ish) is to create a VFR encode

So instead of encoding every frame (even though b-frames are very efficient in x264), encoding just a few frames for those streches while dropping the duplicates is even more efficient than having to encode them at all. The display time for those remaining static frames increases , in other words the frame rate decreases in those sections (= VFR). You can use something like dedup in avisynth (in windows ; not sure how to do in linux or mac). There are a few segments where buddy is talking and the slide is the exactly same - those are the sections which benefit the most.

I suspect the original WMV was VFR, because dss2 decodes similar to convertfps=true. If you parse this VFR mkv with directshowsource, it reports 17783 frames like the original wmv, but does the same skipping beginning frame behaviour unless you use dss2 or convertfps=true (which is one method to convert VFR to psudeo-CFR). Note , with a frame accurate parse like ffms2, the # encoded frames for this VFR processing is actually 5642 frames (also reported by the x264 log)

VFR is supported by mp4, mkv, flv containers, and flash supports it too. So you could remux with ffmpeg into flv and display on a webpage for example (I tested and it works fine). But remuxing into mp4 or flv will add about 5% more overhead for VFR encodes than mkv container. Also, I don't know the specifics for device compatibility (like ipad) for VFR encodes. I don't what the procedure is to remux VFR into MOV container, but Mplayer OSX Extended and VLC can play VFR encodes on a Mac

Here is the breakdown of the stream sizes:

video 641 kb
audio 2301 kb
mkv overhead 18 kb
total 2960 kb

It will be difficult shave more off the video, the audio is more of the issue than video IMO - it's 3-4x the size of the video and distorted at ~16kbps

[dragonkeeper]

Here is the breakdown of the stream sizes:

video 641 kb
audio 2301 kb
mkv overhead 18 kb
total 2960 kb

It will be difficult shave more off the video, the audio is more of the issue than video IMO - it's 3-4x the size of the video and distorted at ~16kbps

Sweet, I generally hate to use VFR but for something of this nature it makes perfect sense. I agree with you on the audio, in the video I posted I took the audio down to 12 kbps and re-sampled to 48k but the audio is still a little hollow sounding.
Excellent work btw.