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  1. Ok, I have searched and read a lot of posts and while I cansee there are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge, but I haven't been able tofind an answer to my problem.

    Since I suspect I am looking to understandsomething the average person never thinks about and the advanced people take for granted, please excuse me if I ramble abit to explain what I "think" I understand. That way hopefullysomeone can explain what I am missing or how to correct my captures.

    For the record I am talking about capturing SD TV in widescreen(16:9) vs legacy (4:3).
    I am not interested in zooming in the TV or player, or usingstretch. I am looking at the ratio and resolution of the captured video and not itsplayback.

    All my TV's and computers are widescreen (16:9) and I useone of my computers as a DVR.

    When a channel shows a program in legacy aspect (4:3), theoriginal viewing is pillar-boxed (black bars on the right and left side). Therecording maintains this aspect and when the recording is viewed it still ispillar-boxed. No problem.

    When a channel shows a problem in widescreen (16:9), theoriginal viewing fills the entire screen. However when the recording is viewedthe only fills the center of the screen. There are black bars on all four sidesof the picture. From what I can find this is called "window-boxing"or "postage-stamping".

    What I don't understand is why the widescreen recording iswindow-boxed. When I looked at the resolution of the recording, every recordingis 720x480 which is neither 16:9 or 4:3.


    16:9 works out to be 1.77:1 (which would be 1920x1080 or1280x720)

    the captured files show a resolution of 720x480 works out to be 1.5:1

    4:3 works out to be 1.33:1 (which would be 640x480 or680x510)


    I don't understand why a 4:3 program will play and recordand playback the same way - pillar-boxed, but a widescreen (16:9) program willplay fullscreen but playback as a postage-stamp in the center of a black field.

    I was that SD content will always be captured at legacy(4:3) with 510 horizontal. At 4:3 that would mean the capture resolution forany SD show would be 680x510. It doesn't matter if the show is transmittedwidescreen (16:9) or legacy (4:3) the capture is always the same.

    This is where I get confused.

    If SD TV is always legacy (4:3) how do we get widescreen shows?

    If the capture is always going to be 4:3 why do the files show 720x480?

    Why can't a widescreen program becaptured at a widescreen resolution?

    It is a little disheartening to capture a show only to playit back in a smaller box then the original program. As I said before, I know Ican zoom my TV but that only works for me. It doesn't help my wife or daughterneither of which understand zooming or taking the TV out of zoom when done. Iam hoping for a way to record and playback the programs in the same format asthey were boardcast.

    My setup is old but has always worked well. I am using a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-2250 and BeyondTV and/orWMC. While I know BeyondTV is never going to be updated again, it has been good for me andcontinues to work well. I haveexperimented using Windows Media Center with my 2250, but had the same results.

    The reason I started playing around with WMC was because Iwas thinking about upgrading my hardware to an InfiniTV and with BeyondTV beinga dead program (in terms of development) I figured I would need newer software.

    Is there a way to capture a SD widescreen broadcast so thatthe file maintains the aspect the program was originally?

    Can you manually set the recording resolution in BeyondTV orWMC or any other DVC software to capture in widescreen?

    I think there must be a way to capture widescreen and retain its format as it is easy to find captured shows online that are in widescreen (without windowboxing).

    Sorry if I made this long, but I am trying to convey mylevel of knowledge along with what I have read on the forums and how I think itall goes together. I hope someone out there understands what I mean and cananswer so I can understand and hopefully set up my system better.

    Thanks all.
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  2. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Research on CinemaScope or non-square pixels, they ye shall find.
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    After reading all that, it wasn't clear to me how you are recording and from what device.

    Known: WinTV-PVR-2250

    Unknown
    1 Using Haupauge tuner to tune analog cable?
    2 Using Haupauge tuner to tune clearQAM digital cable?
    3 Using Haupauge tuner to tune ATSC over the air?
    4 Recording S-Video off a cable/sat box? Which box?
    5 Other source?

    Your issues vary depending on which connection is being used.
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    If you are recording the SD analog output from a set-top box, most add letterbox bars as a permanent part of the picture when sending the picture for HD channels over a composite, coax, or S-Video connection. If the HD channel is showing up-scaled SD materials, the picture is already pillarboxed, and you get a postage stamp in 4:3 aspect ratio. Any SD channels showing widescreen content will already contain the letterboxing as a permanent part of the picture. ( I have not heard of any SD digital channels that are broadcast in anamorphic 16:9, although I think the ATSC and QAM specs permit it.)

    Very few set-top boxes can be configured to send anamorphic 16:9 for HD channels using a composite, coax, or S-Video connection connection. You would have to look for appropriate settings in the menus on the set-top box.

    If the set-top box's doesn't provide the needed settings, to get rid of the letterboxing that is otherwise added as a permanent part of the picture, then you have to do it after recording. You must use software to crop the bars, re-size the video, and re-encode as anamorpic 16:9 or whatever movie widescreen aspect ratio applies. This won't likely look significantly better than zooming the video with the TV controls.

    Ceton InfiniTV (and all other CableCARD tuners) require using Windows 7 Media center (or a cerified Vista Media Center PC) and PlayReady to record copy-once channels.

    For the right person, they are a great product. Just be aware that there are some drawbacks. Local OTA channels are "copy-freely", and won't be encrypted, but most cable-only channels are "copy-once" and recordings are encrypted. In addition, much premium and on-demand content is marked "copy never" and can't be recorded. Also, you can't edit encrypted wtv recordings, or view them on a TV using anything but the computer that recorded them, or an XBox 360 installed as a media extender. Also, be aware that you also need one or more tuning adapters, in addition to a M-Card if your provider uses switched digital video.
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  5. edDV
    I am recording using Hauppauge 2250 to record analog cable. No set-top box. Straight cable to the back of the card (f-connector).
    Thanks for pointing that out.



    usually_quiet,

    You said
    Any SD channels showing widescreen content will already contain the
    letterboxing as a permanent part of the picture.
    So I guess it has something to do with how the widescreen image (with the letterboxing) is captured in the 4:3 format?

    I have noticed there seem to be three types of shows.

    1) Pillarboxed - 4:3 picture with bar bars on both sides.
    2) Full widescreen
    3) Letterboxed - unknown ratio but with black bars at top and botton, but picture extends the full width of the width screen.

    I think the postage-stamp recordings have come from the third one. Since the letterbox borders are part of the transmission, I guess the 16:9 image (picture plus the premanet letterbox bars) is reduced to fit into a 4:3 area and recorded that way?

    Is there anyway around capturing in 4:3? If I could capture in 16:9 I would keep the letterboxing but lose the postage stamp effect
    Last edited by Kilau; 11th Oct 2011 at 17:34.
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  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    ATSC broadcasters have 13 options for SD formating (variations of 480i and 480p) under the ATSC standard but usually use only one 704x480 60i at 4:3 aspect ratio. 24p is shown as telecine. 16x9 source is either shown as letterbox or center crop. Sometimes pan and scan movies are shown as 4:3.

    When you say you are seeing side bars, that is either being done by your 16:9 TV (from 4:3 SD source) or the channel you are capturing is upscaling 704x480 4:3 SD into a 1920x1080 or 1280x720 16:9 frame.
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  7. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kilau View Post
    edDV
    I am recording using Hauppauge 2250 to record analog cable. Noset-top box. Straight cable to the back of the card (f-connector).
    Thanks for pointing that out.



    usually_quiet,

    You said
    Any SD channels showing widescreen content will already contain the
    letterboxing as a permanent part of the picture.
    So I guess it has something to do with how the widescreen image (with the letterboxing) is captured in the 4:3 format?
    All cable analog that I have seen is 4:3 480i to NTSC. 24p is transmitted as telecine. 16:9 is either shown letterbox or more typically as center crop.

    I'm wondering how you are seeing side bars. It is either being done by your TV or is due to Hauppage or BeyondTV settings (e.g. telling them you have a 16:9 monitor).
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  8. I am seeing the side bars after recording a letterbox show. The show originally goes all the way from one side to the other of the widescreen with of course the letterbox bars above and below. The recording ends up in a 4:3 shape so the orginial letterbox show ends up pillarboxed in a 4:3 center. Was trying to see how to avoid having the letterboxed show end up 4:3 and therefore postage stamped.
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  9. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kilau View Post
    I am seeing the side bars after recording a letterbox show. The show originally goes all the way from one side to the other of the widescreen with of course the letterbox bars above and below. The recording ends up in a 4:3 shape so the orginial letterbox show ends up pillarboxed in a 4:3 center. Was trying to see how to avoid having the letterboxed show end up 4:3 and therefore postage stamped.
    I did some graphics to illustrate this in a prior post. I'll try to find these this evening. Your TV is creating the side pillars.
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  10. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Found it. The left side shows what the cable company sends as 4:3 and letterbox. The right side shows how an HDTV normally displays them.
    Click image for larger version

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    If you want to process the letterbox for 16:9 display, you need to deinterlace or inverse telecine, then crop off the letterbox and expand the remaining 704x ~396 up to one of the below, then encode.

    640x360 (square pixel)
    848x480 (square pixel)
    720x480 with wide flag (DVD compatible).
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    Originally Posted by Kilau View Post
    Is there anyway around capturing in 4:3? If I could capture in 16:9 I would keep the letterboxing but lose the postage stamp effect
    As I already wrote, the only way to avoid the "postage stamp" effect is if you have a set-top box that gives you the option of anamorphic 16:9 widescreen instead of letterboxed 4:3 for the SD analog connection that you use for recording. Most set-top boxes do not provide that option for any SD connections. Your provider assumes that if you use an SD connection, you will be watching on a 4:3 CRT TV. The set-top box therefore adds the letterbox bars as part of the picture so the picture displays correctly on old analog 4:3 TVs. Old analog 4:3 TVs do not have a 16:9 setting to add letterbox bars themselves in order to correctly display anamorphic 16:9 video.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 11th Oct 2011 at 20:07. Reason: clarity
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  12. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kilau View Post
    Was trying to see how to avoid having the letterboxed show end up 4:3 and therefore postage stamped.
    One way is to capture the available clearQAM channels as 16:9 HD. You will get 1920x1080 60i or 1280x720 60p depending on the station. For example, the primary PBS station will upscale SD 16:9 to 1280x720p in most markets. If the original program is 4:3 SD, they will transmit with side pillars.

    The 480i clearQAM channels will be similar to what you have now but will be higher quality digital.
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    Time the bulk of cable-only channels almost always require a cable box for tuning if you have digital service. However, what edDV wrote about capturing clear QAM channels is an option for any clear QAM channels you may have. These are mostly your local OTA broadcast channels, which cable TV providers are required to provide unencrypted.

    The Hauppauge PVR 2250 has a QAM-capable tuner, and with the right software will record available clear QAM channels with a signal that is strong enough for it to tune. I did not mention it because I presumed you knew this already, and would use this recording option if you could.
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  14. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Time the bulk of cable-only channels almost always require a cable box for tuning if you have digital service. However, what edDV wrote about capturing clear QAM channels is an option for any clear QAM channels you may have. These are mostly your local OTA broadcast channels, which cable TV providers are required to provide unencrypted.

    The Hauppauge PVR 2250 has a QAM-capable tuner, and with the right software will record available clear QAM channels with a signal that is strong enough for it to tune. I did not mention it because I presumed you knew this already, and would use this recording option if you could.
    Hauppauge WinTV 7 does it.
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  15. Thank you both. You did a great job explaining what is happening. EdDV your image of letterbox ==> 4 side black is exactly what I am seeing. I will have to look and find out what, if any, QAM channels my cable provider has.

    Your provider assumes that if you use an SD connection, you will be watching
    on a 4:3 CRT TV
    I know many people still have CRT sets, but I hope that down the road cable companies will realize that CRTs are going, going, gone. Until then it looks like I will have to find some QAM clear channels, crop during edit, or go High-Def with set-top boxes supplying the signal.


    It has been so long that I forgot why I stopped using WinTV. I will have to dust it off and play with it some.

    Thanks for your time and sharing your knowledge.
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  16. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kilau View Post
    Thank you both. You did a great job explaining what is happening. EdDV your image of letterbox ==> 4 side black is exactly what I am seeing. I will have to look and find out what, if any, QAM channels my cable provider has.

    Your provider assumes that if you use an SD connection, you will be watching
    on a 4:3 CRT TV
    I know many people still have CRT sets, but I hope that down the road cable companies will realize that CRTs are going, going, gone. Until then it looks like I will have to find some QAM clear channels, crop during edit, or go High-Def with set-top boxes supplying the signal.


    It has been so long that I forgot why I stopped using WinTV. I will have to dust it off and play with it some.

    Thanks for your time and sharing your knowledge.
    Yes they know that.
    your options are an HD box that caps native HD over Firewire if they allow it or ... more complicated.
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    If you don't like WinTV7 there are a some other TV software packages that can be set up for clear QAM.

    MediaPortal and NextPVR are Windows freeware TV aps that can be set up for clear QAM. Windows 7 Media Center also supports clear QAM. I have used all of these, and setting up clear QAM is not as easy as setting up for over-the-air ATSC, but it can be done.

    When I did a search it, found instructions for setting up Beyond TV to use clear QAM.

    Paid TV service providers are well aware SD TVs are going away. They are making money and over fist from the changeover and have no incentive to improve output from their SD video ports. Mine receives an extra $7 per month per set for an HD set-top box every time someone upgrades for their new HDTV.
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  18. Mine receives an extra $7 per month per set for an HD set-top box every time
    someone upgrades for their new HDTV
    Mine charges $9 per set-top box and it is all boxes or none. So if you have 4 boxes it runs $36 a month. You cannot just get HD enabled on one box. Which, in my opinion, is bull since set-top boxes are set-up from the main office using the box's MAC address and it has nothing to do with which house the boxes are in. But, that is off topic.

    Plus for my provider, the HD selection is fairly short (38 channels - 10 of which are sports).

    I am going to try some of those software programs ans see what I can find.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Kilau; 13th Oct 2011 at 13:32.
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  19. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    That's the way consumers get cheated all the time. There should be no upcharge for HD.
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