Best HD camcorder that can record onto tape?

[alexh110]

Until now I've been using a Video 8 camcorder that I bought in 2000.
Would like to update to HD; but I'm struggling to find a camcorder that still records onto a tape format.

New models all seem to record onto SD cards, flash memory, or an internal hard-drive.
The problem I have with these formats is their very limited storage space.
I typically like to shoot 30-50 hours of footage while on holiday, then put the tapes on a shelf for 10 years until I eventually get round to editing them! Storing 50 hours on SD cards would cost me a fortune!

I guess you're supposed to transfer the footage onto a laptop hard-drive or something; but I think I would find this a hassle, and I don't want to bothered doing that every night when I'm on holiday. Plus laptops are not cheap, and would probably cost twice as much as the new camcorder!
I'd much rather have my footage stored on tapes that I can just throw into my suitcase.

So my question is are there any models that still use tape, and if so which offers the best picture quality?
If no new models are available, I would be prepared to buy a secondhand model on EBay.

Doesn't have to be 1080p. In fact my TV is 720p/1080i so it would need to be compatible with that.

I'm a little confused about which tape formats offer HD in the domestic camcorder range? Would it be a domestic version of HDV? If so would it take standard mini-DV tapes; or does it need special HD-capable tapes?

Also confused about frame rates: not sure if 720p and 1080p come in 50p and 25p flavours; or whether it's always 50p?

[edDV]

...
So my question is are there any models that still use tape, and if so which offers the best picture quality?
If no new models are available, I would be prepared to buy a secondhand model on EBay.

Doesn't have to be 1080p. In fact my TV is 720p/1080i so it would need to be compatible with that.

You didn't mention budget but cutting to the chase, the model you probably want is the Canon HV40 . http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/597424-REG/Canon_3686B001_VIXIA_HV40_High_Definition.html

See these threads for pro con on current consumer camcorder formats.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/334386-In-search-of-a-new-video-camcorder?p=2111904#post2111904
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/338074-HD-cam-under-800?

I'm a little confused about which tape formats offer HD in the domestic camcorder range? Would it be a domestic version of HDV? If so would it take standard mini-DV tapes; or does it need special HD-capable tapes?

Also confused about frame rates: not sure if 720p and 1080p come in 50p and 25p flavours; or whether it's always 50p?

Current consumer formats are HDV which is a MiniDV tape version of the pro Sony XDCAM EX format. HDV requires a quality tape but not the expensive HDV master versions except for special occasions. Panasonic Pro PQ tape works fine for normal use and costs only $2.15 per tape. Consumer MiniDV tape (found in stores) is not recommended for HDV.
http://www.tapestockonline.com/pa63mipqus.html

The other major consumer HD format is AVCHD which uses flash ram.

Both HDV and AVCHD consumer camcorders normally record 1080 60i/50i. Some models also record 24p or 30p* (like the HV40). The AVCHD format has recently been extended (Version2) to include 1080 60p/50p.

There are special 720p 60/50 fps HDV format camcorders (a JVC specialty) but these usually cost over $2000. 720p is also possible on many digital cameras and DSLRs but usually at 24 or 30 fps which is poor for hand held shooting.


* The "PAL" version of the HV40 records 50i or 25p.

[alexh110]

Thanks!
The HV40 sounds like my best option, and the price seems very good value.
Does it have the option to record in SD, or to down-convert HD recordings to SD on playback?

Are there any issues with auto-white balance, or peak white distortion? As these are the main problems I've had with Video 8 camcorders. (As well as high frequency luma leaking into the chroma channel; but this should not be an issue with digital component recording.)

The white balance issue I've had occurs during overcast weather, when the camcorder produces a strong blue tint. I'm guessing that's because it thinks I'm shooting indoors: so it increases the blue level to counteract the red bias produced by indoor lighting.
I'm hoping white balance sensors have moved on since 2000, and can avoid this problem?

[edDV]

Thanks!
The HV40 sounds like my best option, and the price seems very good value.
Does it have the option to record in SD, or to down-convert HD recordings to SD on playback?

Yes it can record 16:9 HDV, 16:9 DV wide or 4:3 DV formats. Playback from the camcorder is at recorded resolution over HDMI but SD playback from an HD tape can be done over analog.

IEEE-1394 transfer to a computer from an HDV recorded tape can be done native 1440x1080i or in DV format at 720x480i (720x576i Euro model). Downsize is done in camcorder hardware.

Are there any issues with auto-white balance, or peak white distortion? As these are the main problems I've had with Video 8 camcorders. (As well as high frequency luma leaking into the chroma channel; but this should not be an issue with digital component recording.)

Most camcorders have issues with "auto white balance" but there has been great improvement since Video8. The HV40 also has manual white balance that works very well. Like most consumer cameras, peak white can extend into 236-255 but clipping is detected and displayed as a Zebra pattern in the LCD monitor just like a pro camcorder.


Zebra pattern showing clipping

The white balance issue I've had occurs during overcast weather, when the camcorder produces a strong blue tint. I'm guessing that's because it thinks I'm shooting indoors: so it increases the blue level to counteract the red bias produced by indoor lighting.
I'm hoping white balance sensors have moved on since 2000, and can avoid this problem?

During late afternoon it's best to carry white or warm cards for manual white balance. There has been improvement but even pro cams need manual white balance in extreme natural light conditions.
http://www.warmcards.com/WC1.html

If you have a higher budget, look at the Canon XH-A1 or the Sony HDR-V1U (above $2000).

[alexh110]

There was quite a big difference between models even in Video 8 days: my Samsung had far fewer problems with auto-white balance than my Hitachi. I'm guessing this was to do with the quality of the white-balance sensor. (Neither had an option for manual setting.)

The Hitachi had a UV filter that I'd added myself. Not sure if this was a good idea, as it seemed to produce increased lens glare when shooting in bright sunlight. I also wonder if the filter could have somehow made the white-balance problems worse?
Would you recommend I avoid using this filter on the new camcorder?

[edDV]

There was quite a big difference between models even in Video 8 days: my Samsung had far fewer problems with auto-white balance than my Hitachi. I'm guessing this was to do with the quality of the white-balance sensor. (Neither had an option for manual setting.)

The Hitachi had a UV filter that I'd added myself. Not sure if this was a good idea, as it seemed to produce increased lens glare when shooting in bright sunlight. I also wonder if the filter could have somehow made the white-balance problems worse?
Would you recommend I avoid using this filter on the new camcorder?

A UV filter shouldn't affect white balance. The HV40 has an auto lens cap.

[paulw]

While the HV40 is a good tape based HD camcorder a word of caution. I have a HV20 version and the Firewire port died . It was out of warranty and Canon was going to charge me $998 to get it repaired. I declined and at present I'm using it in mini DV mode and transfer recordings back to the PC with my old DV camcorder .

Will replace it with a flash card based AVCHD one some day soon though it's a pity that there wasn't a HV50 HDV with a SD card rather than tape developed..

[edDV]

While the HV40 is a good tape based HD camcorder a word of caution. I have a HV20 version and the Firewire port died . It was out of warranty and Canon was going to charge me $998 to get it repaired. I declined and at present I'm using it in mini DV mode and transfer recordings back to the PC with my old DV camcorder .

Things die but you could have bought another or borrowed another HDV cam to rescue your HDV collection. A better new HV40 can be had for $649 from a reliable source. Dropping to SD isn't necessary. You can capture off the HDMI port with a Black Magic intensity (not Pro, the cheap one).

Will replace it with a flash card based AVCHD one some day soon though it's a pity that there wasn't a HV50 HDV with a SD card rather than tape developed..

Those won't transfer your HDV tapes. Flash RAM has equal media issues and costs ~10x$ more.

[alexh110]

I didn't know you could capture from HDMI. Good to know that option exists.

I still think tapes are in many ways preferable to other formats, but I suppose it comes down to personal taste.
There can be issues with longevity; but I have VHS tapes recorded in 1986 that show no obvious signs of degradation.
The tapes that tend to be in poor condition are those I recorded over repeatedly; rather than the oldest ones.

I'm archiving my Video 8 collection to DVD at the moment just to be on the safe side. Though I'm a bit concerned about the longevity of DVD. Is there any difference between -R, +R, -RW and +RW in terms of longevity? I tend to use mostly Sony and TDK brands; but also some Verbatim and lesser-known brands.

[edDV]

I didn't know you could capture from HDMI. Good to know that option exists.

I still think tapes are in many ways preferable to other formats, but I suppose it comes down to personal taste.
There can be issues with longevity; but I have VHS tapes recorded in 1986 that show no obvious signs of degradation.
The tapes that tend to be in poor condition are those I recorded over repeatedly; rather than the oldest ones.

I'm archiving my Video 8 collection to DVD at the moment just to be on the safe side. Though I'm a bit concerned about the longevity of DVD. Is there any difference between -R, +R, -RW and +RW in terms of longevity? I tend to use mostly Sony and TDK brands; but also some Verbatim and lesser-known brands.

I back my Hi8/SVHS and DV tapes to DV-AVI on multiple hard drives. VHS goes to 480i DVD + hard drives.

Is there any difference between -R, +R, -RW and +RW in terms of longevity?

Not that I've read but I'd expect erasable DVD RW to have more questionable life and be more subject to damage.

[alexh110]

I'm impressed the HV40 goes down to 0.2 lux. The only disappointing feature is the zoom: 10X optical, 200X digital.
My Video 8 Hitachi has 22X optical, 500X digital (which I did use at maximum occasionally; though it looks pretty grotty!)

[paulw]

While the HV40 is a good tape based HD camcorder a word of caution. I have a HV20 version and the Firewire port died . It was out of warranty and Canon was going to charge me $998 to get it repaired. I declined and at present I'm using it in mini DV mode and transfer recordings back to the PC with my old DV camcorder .

Things die but you could have bought another or borrowed another HDV cam to rescue your HDV collection. A better new HV40 can be had for $649 from a reliable source. Dropping to SD isn't necessary. You can capture off the HDMI port with a Black Magic intensity (not Pro, the cheap one).

Will replace it with a flash card based AVCHD one some day soon though it's a pity that there wasn't a HV50 HDV with a SD card rather than tape developed..

Those won't transfer your HDV tapes. Flash RAM has equal media issues and costs ~10x$ more.

Thanx for the info about the HDMI capture device. I didn't know that they existed and I would have assumed that the MPAA would have banned such devices..

[edDV]

While the HV40 is a good tape based HD camcorder a word of caution. I have a HV20 version and the Firewire port died . It was out of warranty and Canon was going to charge me $998 to get it repaired. I declined and at present I'm using it in mini DV mode and transfer recordings back to the PC with my old DV camcorder .

Things die but you could have bought another or borrowed another HDV cam to rescue your HDV collection. A better new HV40 can be had for $649 from a reliable source. Dropping to SD isn't necessary. You can capture off the HDMI port with a Black Magic intensity (not Pro, the cheap one).

Will replace it with a flash card based AVCHD one some day soon though it's a pity that there wasn't a HV50 HDV with a SD card rather than tape developed..

Those won't transfer your HDV tapes. Flash RAM has equal media issues and costs ~10x$ more.

Thanx for the info about the HDMI capture device. I didn't know that they existed and I would have assumed that the MPAA would have banned such devices..

HDV and AVCHD concorders don't use HDCP encryption. These are personal or business clips.

[intracube]

AVCHD concorders don't use HDCP encryption.

But care should be taken as they fly at supersonic speeds.

[edDV]

AVCHD concorders don't use HDCP encryption.

But care should be taken as they fly at supersonic speeds.

Yes HDMI is uncompressed HD video+audio.

HDV camcorders output more manageable 25Mbps MPeg2 over Firewire as a live stream or off tape.

[intracube]

AVCHD concorders don't use HDCP encryption.

But care should be taken as they fly at supersonic speeds.

Yes HDMI is uncompressed HD video+audio.

HDV camcorders output more manageable 25Mbps MPeg2 over Firewire as a live stream or off tape.

Sorry, I wasn't actually commenting on the data rates of HDMI. It was just my lame attempt at a joke.

AVCHD concorders don't use HDCP encryption.

[hech54]

I typically like to shoot 30-50 hours of footage while on holiday, then put the tapes on a shelf for 10 years until I eventually get round to editing them! Storing 50 hours on SD cards would cost me a fortune!

My neighbor (an "older" gentleman to say the least) buys a new SD card for his little still camera every time he fills one up. Crazy?....in my opinion yes. I even helped him set up an external 1TB drive thinking he would see the light....no dice. Storing little SD cards is no more crazy than storing much larger MiniDV tapes except that MiniDV tapes take up more space and are much more fragile than SD cards. Wait....that didn't sound right.

SD cards are easier to back up to very inexpensive hard drives....AND you can keep the SD cards in an empty cigarette packs in a fire safe as backups.
Think rationally.

[alexh110]

The problem is I wouldn't have access to a large capacity hard-drive whilst abroad on holiday. ("Holiday" in UK English = "Vacation" in US English by the way )

I would have to buy a laptop with a 2TB drive, which would cost at least twice as much as the new camcorder. That's assuming you can get a laptop with such a large capacity drive, which I haven't looked into. If not I'd have to get an external drive as well, which would increase the costs even further.

Plus I really don't want to be bothered copying my flash cards onto a hard-drive every night when I'm abroad. I usually just want to collapse in bed!

For me tapes are the solution: they're cheap, light-weight and durable (I don't agree that they're "fragile"). There's virtually no risk at all of complete failure; unlike hard-drives which do occasionally die, in which case I would lose all my holiday footage.


I have one more question about the HV40, which is how reliable is the camera-shake stabiliser?
Also are there any other models in that price-range that offer a more powerful zoom?

[2Bdecided]

Alex, it's going to give you a 1000x better picture than you old camcorder. You are going to regret having stuck with video 8 for so long.

Maybe you should accept the fact that you're five years late into HD, skip HDV, skip interlaced AVCHD, and jump straight to 1080p50 from Panasonic.

FWIW the HV20/HV30/HV40 gives excellent picture quality, excellent automatic and manual options (at the price), but is fair-to-good in most other areas (low light, LCD view finder, stabiliser, audio). It was, for about four years, the camcorder of choice under £1000.

It's not now IMO, though I still use mine most weeks.

See Panasonic TM900, SD900 etc for state-of-the-art.

Cheers,
David.

P.S. the HV40's white balance is great out doors, but like almost every Canon Camera (video or DLSR or compact) the automatic white balance isn't very good in doors with artificial lighting - you have to select tungsten manually, or put up with orange-ish images.

[alexh110]

Thanks David.
I did have a look at the spec on the TM900; but was put off because of the issues I mentioned with flash-cards. Also I'd have to buy a new TV to take advantage of 1080/50p and 1080/25p; mine will only cope with 1080/50i.
I haven't done any shooting since 2006: so I'm actually not 5 years late!

Having just dubbed some footage I shot on Video 8 to DVD, and I'm actually surprised at how good it looks on my HDTV.
Apart from the issues I mentioned; the pictures look sharp and vibrant even with no upscaling.

My next holiday will be to Greenland, and I'm a bit concerned about the extreme cold causing damage to the camera, as well as the battery draining more rapidly. Does anyone have experience shooting in the Arctic?