Tweaking VHS captures

[poisondeathray]

I believe the "RGB" that MediaInfo reports comes from a flag in the AVI Header that indicates what colorspace the original video was. That has nothing to do with what colorspace comes out of the decoder. That's up to the negotiation between the decoder and the editor. As to why the flag reads RGB -- I don't know.

<edit>
Yes, I verified that. It's the biBitCount field in the AVI Stream Format header ("strf"). If you change it from 24 (decimal) to 16 (decimal) MediaInfo will report the file as YUV. It makes no difference to the decoding.
</edit>

<edit again>
Am I looking at a different file? I don't have a 107 MB file to start with, I have StillCher4.avi, 85.6 MB.
</edit again>

Yes mediainfo is incorrect for sure.

But ffmpeg, ffmbc read it correctly, they can distinguish between known RGB and YUY2 samples.

Wow, that's weird. My file "StillCher4.avi" is 107MB

[jagabo]

But you started out with 107MB , correct? (just checking maybe file got corrupted during download)

Added more info to my last post. The source I have is 85.6 MB. I think Cherbette uploaded another file called StillCher4.avi in his other thread -- it was a different size but I deleted it.

It was still in my Recycle Bin -- 107 MB. AviSource() gives RGB32 for that one. By the way, if I change the biBitCount to 16 it reports that file is YUV. But AviSource() still gets RGB32.

[poisondeathray]

I downloaded from the 1st post in this thread
http://www.mediafire.com/?wt90x90vht4l1m6

Mediafire says 107MB

But in that first post it says AVISource("StillCher2.avi") . That's "2", not "4"....

Not sure what is going on

[jagabo]

We're looking at different files. See my last few (updated) posts.

The script cherbette posted with StillCher2 was a cut and paste from another script in another thread.

[poisondeathray]

OK I think I got what's going on now

I haven't looked at the other thread, but it suggests that he did something different in his capture or processing with the 107MB "StillCher4.avi", because it's RGB , but you report the other streams were YUY2

The only other one I downloaded was the "Commercial trimmed.avi" in the 2nd post. EDIT: that was YUY2

[jagabo]

Actually, I think the 107 MB file I have came from the first post in this thread. It's nearly the same clip but has obviously been processed compared to "StillCher4 raw transfer.avi".

[sanlyn]

You guys still don't believe that "StillCher4.avi" is RGB(A) ?

Just about every program I have says it's RGBA (or BRGA) . If you want more proof, ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true) (should be a null-op if you decode YUY2), and use vdub in fast recompress mode, and use huffyuv again. Lossless YUY2 compression right? You will see the filesize will be reduced to 59.9MB from 107MB. I am 99.9% certain it's RGB+A now.

Um...I found that out earlier. Did something similar (I wanted YUY2). Filesize went from 87.6 to 58.4. AviInfo sez the smaller one is YUY2. Lookee, here's proof from my own 'puter, almost 4 hours ago (files in red):


[Attachment 8944 - Click to enlarge]

That don't mean I'm clever, though. I just tried it to get outta ffdshow and into "real" huff YUY2. Didn't wanna say anything or stir the pot.

You can do this yourself, but if you want samples of known huffyuv YUY2 and RGB+/-A samples let me know. I think some of you have decoder/codec issues

I can't say I've encountered this kind of thing before. But, then, I never used ffdshow except for occasional oddball codecs. I see too many posts about ffdshow problems.

Meanwhile: that Cher on horseback sequence...that's some really annoying discoloration. In the shadows and skin tones, too. Except for the magenta stain, it just looks like bad production work. I already tried 4 AviSynth plugins on the stain. No effect whatsoever. It's too steady and unchanging to "look like" noise to a filter.

[sanlyn]

StillCher4 has been downloaded in 3 versions: one about 107-MB (filtered and then converted to RGB), and again as RGB (today), and as (supposedly) unprocessed and in (I assumed) captured as YUVY (?). I think cherbette stated he couldn't use YUY2 with his adapter, so I assumed the 80-plus "raw" was, what was it, YUVY? But the only colorspaces my media utilities would name were YUY2 or RGB.

I hate ffdshow.

[sanlyn]

Holy codecs, Batman !! I just played my YUY2 version (the smaller file). Looks so much cleaner than the others. Even the horse looks better!

[jagabo]

Are you guys running 32 bit or 64 bit software? I'm using Win7 64 bit but running mostly 32 bit tools.

[sanlyn]

32-bit WinXP Pro, SP2

This is all new to me. Really.

I get a Cher4 yesterday, worked in YV12 and converted (accidentally or not) into RGB32 by saving it with VirtualDub. It's 109-MB.

I convert that same file from ffdshow/huffyuv (RGB32) to huffyuv 2.1.1 (RGB32) and it gets 5-MB smaller (!)

Then we get a new Cher4 earlier today, that's supposed to be unprocessed "raw", it's 87.6-MB and is in unspecified "HFYU" format from ffdshow.
Look at the pic I posted of my hard drive in post #67
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/339411-Tweaking-VHS-captures?p=2110465&viewfull=1#post2110465

The downloaded StillCher4Raw is 87.6 MB
In AviSynth I converted StillCher4Raw to "ToPC601_CherRaw.avi" RGB with huff 2.1.1 (130-MB !)
In AVisynth I converted StillCher4Raw to "ToRGB_CherRaw.avi" (Rec601) with huff 2.1.1 (130-MB !)
But earlier I converted StillCher4Raw from whatever it was to "YUV_CherRaw.avi" using huffyuv/YUY2 in VirtualDub (58.3 MB)

Just a few minutes ago I ran AviSynth and converted "YUV_CherRaw.avi" from YUY2 to Rec601 RGB. Now it's 107-MB again. It's like magic. I never had the same file jump around in size that way.

Time for another Keurig K-Kup of Green Mountain Columbian Free Trade Select. I'm having that with a bowl of Haagen-Dazs vanilla.

[jagabo]

RGB24 uses 3 bytes per pixel. YUY2 uses 2 bytes per pixel. So it's normal for HuffYUV compressed RGB to be bigger than a YUY2 version of the same video. RGB32 uses 4 bytes per pixel so the files get even bigger. And just for completeness, though HuffYUV doesn't support it, YV12 is 1.5 bytes per pixel.

[sanlyn]

RGB24 uses 3 bytes per pixel. YUY2 uses 2 bytes per pixel. So it's normal for HuffYUV compressed RGB to be bigger than a YUY2 version of the same video. RGB32 uses 4 bytes per pixel so the files get even bigger. And just for completeness, though HuffYUV doesn't support it, YV12 is 1.5 bytes per pixel.

I realize that, but: how does the same RGB clip translate into 3 different file sizes (86, 130, 107 MB) ?

[jmac698]

Btw, for capturing you should use ffhuff
Colorspace: YUY2
Predictor: Left
Adaptive huffman tables checked
In ffdshow.
This was tested exhaustively at http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-158420.html
It's better than huffyuv.
If you have a really fast computer you can move up to ffv1,
Colorspace: 422P
Coder type: AC
context Model: Large
keyframes distance: 10

Be careful with YV12, it can hurt interlaced color. It's not fixable from VHS source.

As for checking colorspace and colors, avspmod shows that at the bottom, with the mouse you can point to any pixel and read out the color. There's also a way to read colors in a script.

[sanlyn]

Mm, I dunoo...If ffdshow won't let me read my last 9 years of AVI captures, I wouldn't consider it "better". I'd consider it a major inconvenience. Every couple of years or so ffdshow changes its own codecs, making your older work unusable. That's the main reason I won't use ffdshow for archives I value.

If speed is your priority, there are faster codecs.

[jmac698]

That's a good point, actually, and has been brought up before. In that case, I might suggest ffdshow's lossless jpg. Since it's a standard, it's not likely to go away or become incompatible.
I don't know if it's so much the fault of ffdshow, but considering if you were using a beta codec, or non-standard codec.
In terms of "best" I am thinking of compression performance for real-time capturing and also popularity.
In fact, a good feature of ffdshow, being open source, is that past versions are available in a huge archive so you can go back anytime. You can't say the same of proprietary codecs which may no longer be supported.
Out of curiosity, which codec was it that changed?

I'll tell you my own beef. Virtualdub by default causes dropped frames for me, ruining my last 5 years of recordings.

[sanlyn]

Out of curiosity, which codec was it that changed?

The ffdshow version of huffyuv. They even stole the name. It's not like the original huffman mod of msyuv.

[Cherbette]

My favorite HuffYUV is still v2.1.1 from neuron2.net.
http://neuron2.net/www.math.berkeley.edu/benrg/huffyuv.html

I've had problems with v2.2.0 in the past. I don't remember what those problems were though. I think it had something to do with compatibility with v2.1.1 and RGB modes.

This is version of HuffYUV that I am using (in the link jagabo posted)....is this the correct one? All this talk about colorspace conversion for StillCher4 is making my head spin lol. I can't figure out if it is something I'm doing wrong on my end or not...

[jagabo]

All this talk about colorspace conversion for StillCher4 is making my head spin lol. I can't figure out if it is something I'm doing wrong on my end or not...

StillCher4 raw transfer.avi in this post is fine, YUY2 internally:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/339411-Tweaking-VHS-captures?p=2110336&viewfull=1#post2110336

StillCher4.avi in this post is RGB internally:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/339411-Tweaking-VHS-captures?p=2110054&viewfull=1#post2110054

[Cherbette]

Well in that case this may be a long process haha

Sometimes it is.

You've apparently been using ffdshow's version of huffyuv to encode and decode. That can be complicated. The two huffyuv's are not compatible. To use the "original" huffyuv, you'd have to disable huffyuv in ffdshow (both encode and decode). If you do so, it means that in order to read your older ffdshow captures, you have to temporarily turn on ffdshow's decoder to open the file properly (leave the encoder disabled). Then after you save (i.e., encode again) the video in the original huffyuv, turn ffdshow's huffyuv decoder off again.

So, think about that first. If you continue to use ffdshow's huffyuv, users who don't have ffdshow on their computers will likely have problems with those files.

Anyone who needs to correct me on this huffyuv thingie, please do. I ran into this problem the first time I installed ffdshow. I've found many posts by those who had to do what I described above.

Btw I don't even think I have ffdshow installed??

[Cherbette]

All this talk about colorspace conversion for StillCher4 is making my head spin lol. I can't figure out if it is something I'm doing wrong on my end or not...

StillCher4 raw transfer.avi in this post is fine, YUY2 internally:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/339411-Tweaking-VHS-captures?p=2110336&viewfull=1#post2110336

StillCher4.avi in this post is RGB internally:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/339411-Tweaking-VHS-captures?p=2110054&viewfull=1#post2110054

I wonder why. I must be doin something wrong *scratches head*

I'm pretty sure the latest StillCher4.avi I uploaded (titled "StillCher4 raw transfer.avi") I simply opened virtualdub, clicked file>open video file>stillcher2.avi(the full 60 min documentary raw capture)>mark-in/mark-out the stillcher4.avi portion we're looking at, video>direct stream copy>no audio>save AVI and then uploaded the clip for you all here...

[Cherbette]

Here are some screen caps from Virtualdub using:
Avisource()
Info



The one on the top is StillCher4 raw transfer.avi and the bottom is StillCher2.avi (the untouched raw 60 minute capture)

[Cherbette]

All this talk about colorspace conversion for StillCher4 is making my head spin lol. I can't figure out if it is something I'm doing wrong on my end or not...

StillCher4 raw transfer.avi in this post is fine, YUY2 internally:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/339411-Tweaking-VHS-captures?p=2110336&viewfull=1#post2110336

StillCher4.avi in this post is RGB internally:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/339411-Tweaking-VHS-captures?p=2110054&viewfull=1#post2110054

Oh I just re-read what you said...the current one is okay. I don't know how I missed that. I think the one I posted earlier is reporting as RGB because of something I may have done wrong...I must have not had the direct stream copy enabled and somehow the the compression method was set to RGB? Not sure exactly what went wrong there but it was probably my error. Just glad the current "StillCher4 raw transfer.avi" is fine...

[jmac698]

@sanlyn
Oh - they are not the same at all, it's just naming confusion. With that out of the way, you can install both at the same time, but the ffdshow huff compresses much better than huffyuv. If you use huffyuv, use predict median. If you're really worried about archiving, use a standards based codec. ffv1 gives compression better than most other lossless codecs and is real-time with a modern computer.
http://www.fpdigital.com/Resource/Files/lossless_codecs_test_en.pdf

@cherbette
Sorry all this technical stuff was more of a side discussion.. don't pay any attention to me at this point Do what the main people helping you are saying. I was able to read your files anyhow.

[Cherbette]

@sanlyn
Oh - they are not the same at all, it's just naming confusion. With that out of the way, you can install both at the same time, but the ffdshow huff compresses much better than huffyuv. If you use huffyuv, use predict median. If you're really worried about archiving, use a standards based codec. ffv1 gives compression better than most other lossless codecs and is real-time with a modern computer.
http://www.fpdigital.com/Resource/Files/lossless_codecs_test_en.pdf

@cherbette
Sorry all this technical stuff was more of a side discussion.. don't pay any attention to me at this point Do what the main people helping you are saying. I was able to read your files anyhow.

Just curious...You said "if you use huffyuv, use predict median" so it made me curious to the right of that it reads "rgb compression method" what should be in this dropbox? mine is set to "predict gradient".

My next question would be where does one find the ffv1 codec? I'm guessing that is part of the ffdshow installation.

[jagabo]

My next question would be where does one find the ffv1 codec? I'm guessing that is part of the ffdshow installation.

It's in ffdshow (select ffdshow as the codec, configure the encoder to use FFV1). But I'd stick with HuffYUV. It's also open source, very fast, and well supported in video apps.

[Cherbette]

Ok then I've had no issues with HuffYUV thus far and don't have ffdshow installed anyways. I did download it just in case I ever needed it.

[jmac698]

Bear in mind that there's different, incompatible versions of huffyuv.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=67121
Is version 2.2, which can produce videos that the older one can't open.
When a full 2 hr VHS takes 350GB, I had to switch to a better compressor...

[Cherbette]

I am using v2.1.1 and it is the only HuffYUV I have tried so far. 57 mins 47 seconds came to 23.3gig with uncompressed 16bit 4800khz audio.

[jmac698]

I mis-remembered something. I have 89GB for 2:02 (two hours). The reason I thought 350 was because I use a technique where I capture the same video at least 3 times, and merge them to reduce noise. This can be an extremely powerful technique which far outperforms the best filters, and it's also authentic - the real video comes out, not processing artefacts. But that's another story, heaven forbid you have a tape in that poor condition (mostly talking about white lines and age-related noise here).