NAS recommendations

[intracube]

So, over the years I've accumulated a lot of media files which are currently spread across several systems. I want to transfer/organize it to a central location with inbuilt redundancy and the ability to stream content to DNLA and/or NFS compatible devices over my home network.

I've been impressed by the specs of Netgear's NAS boxes, particularly the X-Raid2 system which can recover from a power outage DURING the syncing process, which is really important as syncing can take hours for large disks and brownouts/power cuts aren't uncommon here. A typical UPS wouldn't be good enough as they're only designed to allow a device to shut down gracefully within minutes - not power something for hours.

Expansion with X-Raid2 also looks straightforward.

Configuration/administration is done via a web browser, instead of having to use a Windows/Mac only program. As I use Linux, this is of the things that put me off a Drobo.

Connecting in via SSH is also possible via an add-on.

There are some caveats. The default disk block size for recent NAS boxes is 16k, which means if the NAS unit fails, it wouldn't be possible to directly connect the disks to most computers to read the data off. Having said that, most of the RAID configurations stripe data across multiple disks which would make it impractical to retrieve data this way. The only solution would be to get a replacement NAS unit.

The NAS box would be on my desk, so noise might be an issue. Having said that, the NAS can go into standby after a specified time of inactivity. As I won't be accessing it a lot of the time, this would help.

For streaming media to devices around the home, DNLA seems the way to go. I'd also use NFS for some devices.

To recap, I'm looking at getting a NAS box with the following features:
- DLNA compatible
- NFS/(S)FTP
- Expandable (at least 4 drive bays)
- Gigabit network interface
- *Can cope with power failure during syncing/drive expansion process
- *Web browser based configuration/control (not Windows/Mac specific)
- Quiet (subjective, I know)

I'd periodically do a backup of the NAS box (possibly just the most important files) to separate external drive(s), and store on a shelf in case of a major failure of the unit.

Right now I'm leaning towards a Netgear ReadyNAS Ultra 6. Synology NAS boxes also look interesting.

Are there any other companies I should be considering? Any potential problems/issues with the Netgear Ultra 6?

[aedipuss]

i have 2 plextor px-nas-4s and a zyzel 2 drive nas. the plextors i really like. they each have 4 2tb hard drives in raid 5, with dual gig nics.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2374299,00.asp#fbid=bof1_X7J86g

[budwzr]

Myself, I have a ReadyNAS NV+ For 3 years. It has Raid 5. It's a workhorse that's never failed or even hiccuped. I leave it running all the time.

I'm not familiar with the Ultra 6, must be new. It does a LOT more than your minimum specs.

I wouldn't bother with onsite backups, it's offsite backups you might need. It does that too. To any web space you have ftp access, or even another NAS that's online. It has https service, so you can connect to it via web out in the field too.

The network transfer speed on mine is about 12 MBps on a 10/100.

[Cornucopia]

Guys, I'm serious, if you're still running Raid 5 or Raid 6, you really ought to consider moving to Raid 10 or similar. The ratio of possibility of unrecoverable bit errors during restoration/resynching vs. time of drive size becomes too risky over a couple of TB for Raid 5, maybe triple that for Raid 6.

I say this after having lost a Raid 5 system last year that we ended up having to completely replace (nothing lost cuz of good backups, though - just delay!!). I've converted over, and am very happy.

Plus, Raid 5 & 6 don't seem to have as quick real-time, sustained read speed as Raid 10. Noticeably perkier.

Scott

[budwzr]

Well, if you want 100% reliability, then disc mirroring with one disc offsite is the answer. Don't even use a NAS.

[aedipuss]

Guys, I'm serious, if you're still running Raid 5 or Raid 6, you really ought to consider moving to Raid 10 or similar. The ratio of possibility of unrecoverable bit errors during restoration/resynching vs. time of drive size becomes too risky over a couple of TB for Raid 5, maybe triple that for Raid 6.

I say this after having lost a Raid 5 system last year that we ended up having to completely replace (nothing lost cuz of good backups, though - just delay!!). I've converted over, and am very happy.

Plus, Raid 5 & 6 don't seem to have as quick real-time, sustained read speed as Raid 10. Noticeably perkier.

Scott

too much redundant space(lost storage) on a small raid 10. the nas only has 4 bays and a 2TB drive size limit. raid 5 works fine and if it loses a drive it will be taken offline to re-build, no biggie. with available s.m.a.r.t. reports on all the drives i think raid 5 will do fine.

[budwzr]

too much redundant space(lost storage) on a small raid 10. the nas only has 4 bays and a 2TB drive size limit. raid 5 works fine and if it loses a drive it will be taken offline to re-build, no biggie. with available s.m.a.r.t. reports on all the drives i think raid 5 will do fine.

Mine is set up to e-mail me if any event happens, but so far nothing. My s.m.a.r.t. reports are looking good too, no bad sectors, and I'm running Seagate Barracudas in all slots.

[aedipuss]

the transfer speed of the plextors is about 50MB/s(400mb/s). and it has 2 separate nics each with 10/100/1000 speed. to handle multiple downloads simultaneously.

[dragonkeeper]

If you're a do it yourselfer take a look at freeNas and a zettabyte fille system zfs. According to the specs a typical raid system is not able to touch it in regards to reliability and performance. One of the key features is that for all practical purposes file size limitations are a thing of the past. The max file size of a zfs is 16 exabytes and a max volume size in the area of a 1/4 yottabyte.

The feature i like about it most is how easily one can add drives to an existing raid array at any time. Freenas with a e-sata port multiplier (which are dasiy chain-able by the way) seems to be a great combination.



Here is a link describing how to set up freeNas as DLNA;
http://www.homesystemintegration.com/2011/01/freenas-tutorial-part-4-upnp-streaming/

[intracube]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll continue looking into this tomorrow.

aedipuss; Plextor say Windows/Linux/Mac is supported, although I haven't found any details on how the PX-NAS4 is configured. The review you linked to mentions the PX-NAS utility, but it doesn't say if it's a binary program, or web browser based.

Have you expanded the capacity of your NAS? By either replacing the disks for higher capacity ones, or adding. What was the process?

I'm not familiar with the Ultra 6, must be new. It does a LOT more than your minimum specs.

When I started looking into this my intention was to use it as a backup device, nothing more. Now that I've got some idea of what these boxes can do, I'm excited by the possibilities.

I wouldn't bother with onsite backups, it's offsite backups you might need. It does that too. To any web space you have ftp access, or even another NAS that's online. It has https service, so you can connect to it via web out in the field too.

Trying to upload 1TB of data on a .37Mbps upstream connection would take ...a while. 279 days I estimate

The network transfer speed on mine is about 12 MBps on a 10/100.

The NV+ is listed as having 10/100/1000 capability. Does your computer have a gigabit NIC? I guess the limit is going to be a combination of the disk access and processor rather than the network.

Guys, I'm serious, if you're still running Raid 5 or Raid 6, you really ought to consider moving to Raid 10 or similar.

I need to read up on the differences between Raid 10 and Netgear's own X-Raid2. I'm not storing mission critical data, so the highest level of redundancy isn't necessary. Also Raid 10 doesn't look easy to expand. I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how X-Raid2 works:
http://www.readynas.com/?p=656

dragonkeeper; Thanks, I'll take a look.

[aedipuss]

freenas is os software, it's not a nas. you have build a computer for it to run on. not likely you'll get near the performance on the 50 watts it takes to power a dedicated 4 hard drive nas box.

[aedipuss]

aedipuss; Plextor say Windows/Linux/Mac is supported, although I haven't found any details on how the PX-NAS4 is configured. The review you linked to mentions the PX-NAS utility, but it doesn't say if it's a binary program, or web browser based.

Have you expanded the capacity of your NAS? By either replacing the disks for higher capacity ones, or adding. What was the process?

no i started them off with the max 4 - 2TB drives. if you wanted to increase the capacity while running you would have to replace the drives one at a time and let the raid rebuild itself after each.

all nas that i know of are accessible using a browser just like router. here is the plex interface.

[budwzr]

I don't know too much about the different NAS's, but sounds like Aedipuss has a high end model.

My ReadyNAS NV does have gigabit network support, but I only have 10/100.

Sure, offline storage takes a long time, because it's just a trickle, but if you use a program like Goodsync it will free up the NAS system resources and you can "set it, and forget it". and GS will mirror the files as regular FAT files, not funky compression. GS is a really robust program, you should check it out.

I think compressed backups are the most unreliable and take WAY too long to retrieve something.

[intracube]

aedipuss; do you know if the Plextors can cope with a power cut during sync/drive expansion? Or will it lead to data corruption?

I've only found general comments like "recovery after power failure" which don't answer that question.

That's my biggest single concern right now for any NAS box I get.

[budwzr]

You need a "UPS" (Uninterruptable Power Supply), NO MATTER what claims are made about recovery. You just don't want to take a chance.

The best ones are network addressable and can communicate with the NAS and shut it down normally during a power failure.

A regular cheapish one will just keep the NAS powered up until both go kapoop.

If you put your router on that same UPS, you'll get notified via e-mail. The phone line is likely to still be on.

ReadyNAS has different levels of protection like "journaling" that improve the odds of recovering in the event of crisis, but slow down the transfer speed, so each users scenario might be different.

There are LOTS of considerations when running a NAS, like whether or not to have a recycle bin, that all play into the odds. If you delete a file, with recycle bin off, and snapshots off, that file is GONE.

Bottom Line is look CAREFULLY at the features when comparing NAS's. Once you're invested in one, you have to live with it. I chose ReadyNAS because it has a huge fan base and support forums. Many of the forum users write software for the NAS and they're not shy about voicing their opinions to NetGear.

I bought my NAS over two years ago, and it is still supported and getting firmware updates that improve functionality.

[aedipuss]

i guess it would be luck of the draw whether the power failed during a read or write operation during a re-build. i have battery backup ups on all devices so hopefully i will never find out. also i only used what i consider top shelf hard drives to start with. i switched all my computers and related devices to samsung years ago. spinpoint 1 tb f3 drives in computers and 2tb f4 drives in the nas boxes, can't put any bigger in them. i haven't had so much as a lost cluster in several years using samsung. i switched from using all western digital black drives.....

[budwzr]

Another note, without a backup UPS if there is a power failure my ReadyNAS will do a lot of scanning and whatnot before it comes back online, which is a hassle if you're working on something. So you're gonna need that no matter what.

(OOPS, I take back what I previously wrote here.)

[TBoneit]

That is exactly why I have things on a UPS. One momentary blip in the power and 5 or more minutes watching things restart.

[intracube]

You need a "UPS" (Uninterruptable Power Supply), NO MATTER what claims are made about recovery. You just don't want to take a chance.

That is exactly why I have things on a UPS. One momentary blip in the power and 5 or more minutes watching things restart.

I've been thinking about getting a UPS for my desktop machine for some time. It'd make sense to get one that can power both the NAS and computer, and shut them down if necessary. We get quite a lot of one or two second power cuts here which a UPS would be ideal for.

I understand how the UPS can communicate with devices and shut them down. But I was wondering if a NAS box might not be able to shutdown if it's halfway through the sync/expansion process. Some low level procedures don't have the option for stopping halfway though. That was my real concern.

"Other NAS may tout that they have “online” RAID expansion just like X-RAID, but take a closer look and you’ll see it’s just not quite that simple. Not only are there complex RAID migration steps involved, but they don’t mention that if you encounter a power loss during the process, you can say goodbye to your data for good.

With X-RAID2, you can turn off the power as many times as you want during the expansion, and it’ll continue where it left off."
http://www.readynas.com/?page_id=450

i have battery backup ups on all devices so hopefully i will never find out.

Do you know if it's possible to cancel a sync/expansion part way through, or do you have to let the NAS run its course?

also i only used what i consider top shelf hard drives to start with. i switched all my computers and related devices to samsung years ago. i switched from using all western digital black drives.....

I was going to get 2TB Seagate drives (I forget the model). I've heard mixed comments about WD drives in recent years, but Seagate seem to be well thought of.

There are LOTS of considerations when running a NAS, like whether or not to have a recycle bin, that all play into the odds. If you delete a file, with recycle bin off, and snapshots off, that file is GONE.

I've heard about the recycle bin, and it seems a good idea. Although, I've only had one (maybe two) incidents over the years where I've deleted files unintentionally. Not bad going considering how easy it is to do with Linux.

I did a 'rm -rf' once where I didn't want to do a 'rm -rf'. My hand has never moved so fast to hit Ctrl+C (cancel command)...

I chose ReadyNAS because it has a huge fan base and support forums. Many of the forum users write software for the NAS and they're not shy about voicing their opinions to NetGear.

Yes, I was going to mention the ReadyNAS site. That was a big reason for me putting Netgear at the top of my list. The reassurance that there's popular forums where any problems are likely to get answered (for free) is important.

Thanks again for the suggestions/info folks.

[aedipuss]

if it gives you peace of mind by all means go with readynas. i don't have a big reason to worry about what's on mine. it can all be replaced, some is backed up to drives stored on shelves through the plex esata port and it's fast enough to do unlike usb backup. the rest can all be replaced. i just lose the time involved in doing it.

[budwzr]

I think the X-Raid reliability is what it is, regardless of the brand or box. Whoever's lucky with their box is going to rave about it, whoever isn't is going to be like an ex-smoker. Luck is 99% of it, and not being a dumbass, like me, who initially, when new, stuck drives with data on them thinking the NAS would convert it to the new file system, and lost all his archives, is the rest.

Oh, and running over and unplugging it after the words "initializing..." are displayed is futile, you are H-O-S-E-D! With a capital HOSE. I tried every data recovery tool on the internet, no joy.

Or having the NAS recycle bin turned off to save a few MB's, and STILL losing stuff here and there by forgetting they're on the NAS when deleting, and still being too lazy or stubborn to set up the recycle bin, like moi.

I guess hard knocks is the only school that actually teaches us anything.

[intracube]

I think the X-Raid reliability is what it is, regardless of the brand or box. Whoever's lucky with their box is going to rave about it, whoever isn't is going to be like an ex-smoker. Luck is 99% of it

I'm pretty sure X-Raid is a proprietary Netgear technology. It seems reasonable that the system could be designed to keep track of where it is during syncing/expansion so it can carry on after a power loss, and it looks like Netgear have done this. But as you say, these systems aren't infallible, so I'll definitely get an external HDD for periodic backups.

Whatever I get will be better than what I have now. Some of the stuff I want to keep isn't backed up at all, and is on a disk that's failing...

and not being a dumbass, like me, who initially, when new, stuck drives with data on them thinking the NAS would convert it to the new file system, and lost all his archives, is the rest.

yyeoowwwch

I had read that disks are wiped after adding them to the NAS, but thanks for the warning.

Right, I'm going to spend a week or two reading up about Raid and the various NAS products available. Thanks again for your input folks.

[budwzr]

OK, then I guess I meant Raid 10 or whatever the newer scheme is.

As far as transfer speed goes, that has to do with your network, not so much the NAS. I keep my NAS on its own switch to take some of the load off the router. Even my older NV+ can do gigabit, I just don't have a gigabit network, don't really need it yet.

Another good thing about NAS's, is you can grab and go in an emergency. It's a central location, and eliminates the need for local backups to a USB drive, but getting other users (wife) to use it is a challenge.

[alegator]

No one mentioned Cisco NAS, seems to have good reviews:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822124010
Anyone has experience with those?