S-Video Vs Composite for Black & Whit captures

[nharikrishna]

Hi all,

I currently have a Canopus ADVC-110 set-up to capture black & white movies from my (SD) satellite box through S-Video connection. The output quality has been very good.

I am planning to go for a High Definition satellite service, and the HD box has only Component, HDMI & Composite. It doesn't have S-Video.

My question is, does it matter much in terms of picture quality if I capture black & white movies on Composite as opposed to S-Video? The movies are broadcast as SD, not HD.

Thanks.

[jagabo]

You'll get luma leaking into the chroma channels -- causing rainbow artifacts. See the concentric circles in the samples in this post:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1940519

If your capture device has a proc amp you may be able to turn the saturation all the way down. Or you can filter later since you'll probably be converting to DVD or some other more compressed format.

[nharikrishna]

Thanks jagabo for the response and the link.

I use Canopus ADVC-110 which doesn't have hardare procamp. I guess I will have to work with saturation in post. Yes, my final output is DVD-Video.

Regards

[2Bdecided]

For black and white capture only (i.e. black and white source), connect the composite output into the S-video luma only. You'll need a special cable. There will be no rainbow artefacts at all, and all the original luma resolution will be preserved.

Any chroma in the source will cause the captured black and white picture to have fuzzy lines on the top, with an amplitude proportionate to the chroma saturation. So use with pure black and white sources only.

Cheers,
David.

[jagabo]

So use with pure black and white sources only.

In my experience, most black and white broadcast video has some color -- ie, a blue cast, sepia tones, etc.

[JVRaines]

Composite will be lower quality than s-video. The signal is still color and requires extra filtering. Chroma should be zero, but in the real world it can still cause trouble.

However the difference is very small. A better question is why do the D/A-A/D conversion at all? Take the HDMI out from your satellite box and connect it to something like the BlackMagic Intensity.

[jagabo]

A better question is why do the D/A-A/D conversion at all? Take the HDMI out from your satellite box and connect it to something like the BlackMagic Intensity.

Because the HDMI output is almost always HDCP protected and the BMI won't capture it.

[sanlyn]

Composite will be lower quality than s-video. The signal is still color and requires extra filtering. Chroma should be zero, but in the real world it can still cause trouble.

However the difference is very small. A better question is why do the D/A-A/D conversion at all? Take the HDMI out from your satellite box and connect it to something like the BlackMagic Intensity.

I would avoid HDMI. Period. Stay with coax.

[nharikrishna]

Thanks all for looking and replying.

That 'special cable' looks interesting. What exactly is it called and where to get it from? I can experiment with it.

Capturing HDMI is not an option for me, due to the cost of BMI Capture card. HDMI signal from my satellite box is encrypted anyway.

[sanlyn]

My experience with HD boxes is this: some services disable analog outputs on HD boxes. Some services encrypt the signal at transmitter level and won't allow copying thru any output, period, except on a copy-once basis (You can record to a hard drive, but you can't make more copies or burn the recording to disc). Providers would also stop you from recording to DVR's if it weren't for the fact that they make so much $$$ from renting cheap second-rate recorders to their subscribers. While these techniques are supposed to prevent piracy (they don't), they also prevent you from building your personal entertainment library. That policy is rather odd, because the signal being transmitted is often of such inferior quality that anyone with two properly functioning eyes and ears resents having to pay for it in the first place; certainly, I wouldn't pay good money for bad video in a retail store.

The other side to this policy is that all manufacturers are gradually doing away with all analog inputs and outputs -- not because they don't want to put up with providing those features, but because they want you to throw away everything you own and buy new, more expensive, more cheaply made, inferior stuff. HDMI is a good example of poor design and inferior performance at premium prices and huge profit margins. Unfortunately the public is so gullible about anything "digital" that manufacturers can sell anything to just about anyone who'll believe their line of snake oil (I even see "digital" loudspeakers. If you are dumb enough to believe that a loudspeaker is digital, you deserve to pay $150 and up for an HDMI cable). The other myth-maker is the ever popular line from BestBuy floor walkers: it's digital, it either works or it doesn't. My fact sheet says that coax also carries digital (it gets digital into your home, doesn't it?) and does a better job. But don't get me started.

In the U.S. I've found only three composite wires that are worth the the bother. No surprise that none are perfect, but they're better than most of the stuff I've tried since 1980.

You can get a very sharp, very accurately colored and snappy image from Acoustic Research Performance Series composite video cable (that's the one in the bluish-green jacket). You might have to get the yellow-video-plus-red-and-white-stereo package to get it, but the audio cable is actually OK as well. Overall acutance is quite good and can rival s-video, even if color is slightly (relatively) on the warmish side, and isn't nearly as noisy as most composite wire. ACoustic Research also sells the "Pro", Pro-II, and other series, but I think images from those series look much softer and perform more like the "typical" over-priced composite wire. A 6-foot version is at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Research-Video-Cable-AP001/dp/B00005LACF/ref=wl_it_dp_o...=23OCKRDZXFN5V

The other composite cable that seems to me to deliver a superior composite image without a lot of transmission noise is made from Belden 1695a (or with a thinner insulator called 1694a). Note, the brand name is "Belden", not "Belkin", the latter being overpriced stuff that can make your image look out of focus. One Belden seller with decent prices is http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/composite/index.htm. Much is made of the point that Belden makes lots of professional-grade a/v cable that's standard in the broadcast business (which is true, but that doesn't always make it the "best" for consumers. Their s-video cables suck). Bluejeans Cable also likes to sell a thinner wire, Belden 1505A or 1505F. Sellers like to say that 1505F and 1594/95 do the same thing and output the same image. They don't. Stay with 1594/95.

oops. It appears that my 3rd choice no longer has a U.S. supplier (Europe only, and too expensive that way). In fact, many TV makers have announced that new products won't have component or composite inputs (and the naysayers told us it wouldn't happen, right?). All replaced by HDMI for the technically "savvy" average consumer who can't match a green plug to a green hole, so there you are. The only place HDMI hasn't penetrated is broadcast and studio shops, where pros know better.

Avoid Monster Cable, Amazon's budget MediaBridge line, or anything made with Canare wire.

OTH, if you're of the school that says all wire looks and sounds alike, it doesn't matter what you get and any further discussion would be a waste of time.

[themaster1]

With what kind of hardware/methodology have you tested all these cables Sanlyn? I'd be curious to know.
Monster cable s-video work ok for me but we're talking composite here ..

[jagabo]

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/221249-Test-Caps-various-composite-and-s-video-cables

It's amazing that all those manufacturers were able to get together and make sure all their cheap cables were exactly as bad as one another.

[sanlyn]

With what kind of hardware/methodology have you tested all these cables Sanlyn? I'd be curious to know.
Monster cable s-video work ok for me but we're talking composite here ..

It's been a while since I used Monster's s-video, except for my 1985 3-footer, but Monster from 20+ years back was better than it is today IMHO. In any event, I believe my remarks about Monster products were directed at their composite cable, which uses the same core wire and construction as their component stuff. I belong to a local movie fan/videophile club in this area--12 members or so, some with super high-end gear, signal generators, pro colorimeters, and all that jazz. But most of us have midrange gear from SONY, Denon, and familiar names, from projector to plasma, LCD, CRT.

If you're happy with anything you use now, continue using it. None of our members could get clean skin tones from anything Monster makes, and we see moire and other noise on motion. All our TV's and monitors are thoroughly calibrated with EyeOne D2, Eye One Pro, and LaCie probes and various software. We still use s-video for VHS capture and SD cable boxes (a cheapo $5 to $15 Chinese job that's getting hard to find nowadays), but mostly component and HDMI from the UK.

We compare by eye, by ear, and by measure. There's nothing occult about the measuring or the gear, we audition stuff pretty much according to the methods outlined here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457 . A few members keep up hourly with the AVS Forum and other sites, and one works with a film processing lab.

[sanlyn]

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/221249-Test-Caps-various-composite-and-s-video-cables

It's amazing that all those manufacturers were able to get together and make sure all their cheap cables were exactly as bad as one another.

Most cheap cables are pretty bad -- maybe because almost all of them are made by the same Chinese company? But a few cheap cables are pretty good performers. Ours are cheap ($12, 10 feet). We think they have accurate color, good contrast, low noise, and even decent audio. We get similar but slightly improved performance from a couple of $35 cables and a $65 brand. The latter wire is the only one made and sold in the U.S. The others are from the UK- where, as you know, some very sophisticated DVD home recorders are still being sold that you won't find anywhere in North America, the Land of the Free where all DVD recorder makers stopped offering most of their DVD recorders at the same time...

It's equally amazing that all TV manufacturers discontinued s-video and cut down on all analog connections to the same extent on all their new sets at the same time, with similar changes made to all a/v receivers simultaneously.

Yes. I do find that to be amazing.

[themaster1]

Alrighty that's good to know, you checked the quality with pro tools. So what kind of brand/model do you recommand for s-video this time thank you.
What about this one for example

[2Bdecided]

That 'special cable' looks interesting. What exactly is it called and where to get it from? I can experiment with it.

You'll either have to make it yourself, or find an S-video cable that breaks out into two RCA/phonos (one luma, one chroma), and then just connect the luma to composite output.

I made one by cutting one end off an old S-video cable and soldering phono plugs onto the bare wires.

Trying to Google for it, I just find lots of cables with S-video + 2 phonos at both ends which isn't what you want at all.

Cheers,
David.

[2Bdecided]

So use with pure black and white sources only.

In my experience, most black and white broadcast video has some color -- ie, a blue cast, sepia tones, etc.

That would wreck this approach.

[nharikrishna]

That 'special cable' looks interesting. What exactly is it called and where to get it from? I can experiment with it.

You'll either have to make it yourself, or find an S-video cable that breaks out into two RCA/phonos (one luma, one chroma), and then just connect the luma to composite output.

I made one by cutting one end off an old S-video cable and soldering phono plugs onto the bare wires.

Trying to Google for it, I just find lots of cables with S-video + 2 phonos at both ends which isn't what you want at all.

Cheers,
David.

Ok, infact, I already have such a cable (I think). It certainly has S-Video on one side, and two (??) phono on the other side. I can't even visualize it from work, will look at as soon as I get home. I have so many cables at home accumulated over a period of time that I forgot the fact that I have it.

I bought this cable long ago because I had to connect the S-Video output of my laptop to Composite input of TV. In the current scenario, I need to try with feeding signal through Composite and output through S-Video. I will try and it post feedback here on how it goes.

Regards

[sanlyn]

Alrighty that's good to know, you checked the quality pro tools. So what kind of brand/model do you recommand for s-video this time thank you.
What about this one for example

You'll think this recommendation is totally silly, but...bah-humbug it if you wish, we certainly won't take offense.

A few years back we tried the AR cable you linked to. It has accurate color (a bit warmish, but OK), so-so contrast, and is relatively free of noise. But it's image is quite soft. We got better results from the AR Pro-II series, a different wire altogether. A couple of our friends prefer the Pro-II, which I used a few times myself (http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Research-PR-121-S-video-Cables/dp/B000246RLK).

It took a while to answer your question, themaster1. I tried contacting our members for video samples and then searched the 'net for sources of "our" cable. Some vendors make substitutions: what they picture as looking like "our" cable and what they deliver are different. The budget s-video we like looks and feels like good ol' generic-OEM stuff, comes gold-plated or non-plated, comes as 6, 12, and 25-ft. It has no identifying marks or numbers, except for its distinctive connector and strain relief. We've found no other s-video cable that looks exactly like it. No idea who makes it, but it is (was) marketed by Recoton.

We refer to this wire as the GE ("Gee-Eee"), because on first use it came in a plain "General Electric" branded plastic bubble at Circuit City. We later found it under the RCA label at a P.C.Richards appliance store. Some sites still sell it under those brands, others sell it under their own name ("CablesToGo" for one, but they kept changing the actual product they ship, so we no longer buy from them). There's another "RCA" package around, but it's not the same stuff.

Here two pics of the cable. One is an off-color web shot of the s-video+stereo version. It comes with gold and without. The audio wires on the combo version are too awful to mention. We find no performance difference between plated and non-plated.


[Attachment 8546 - Click to enlarge]

Note the black rounded barrel and 3 finger grip indentations. There are 5 splits in the strain relief, and a raised directional arrow at the tip. Some similar s-video has a depressed directional arrow (not the same cable), 3, 4 or more raised finger grip bands (not the same cable), a different style strain relief (ditto), a flat-edge or cross-hatched finger grip on the barrel (ditto), or various metallic bands around the barrel (ditto).

Members of our little club and some friends have collected some 40 copies of this wire. Only 1 developed a connector problem, after lots of hard use. We use it only for VHS capture and for recording from analog outputs of cable boxes. We sometimes audition cables with test patterns (Belle Nuit), but only out of curiosity. The problem with test patterns is that they don't move, nor do they adequately represent the complex signals of real-world video (especially damaged tape). Altogether we've auditioned dozens of s-video cables. The vast majority appear useless to us, regardless of price.

Some who first tried this cable have remarked, "But it doesn't do anything to the image." That's the point: we feel that a good cable isn't supposed to "do anything" to the signal, whether video or audio. It's supposed to send a signal from one end to the other with as little damage as possible.

Two sources:

RCA S-Video Cable (VH976), http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005T3F9

newegg.com, CABLES UNLIMITED AUD-2000-25 25 ft. S-Video SVHS . Warning: Cables Unlimited has closed its doors and moved to CablesToGo. Not reliable.

Here are two screen caps from videos recorded off HD cable.

#1 reduced to 640x480 SD via s-video from the cable box to a Toshiba RD-XS34 recorder at target bitrate 5200 kbps, and thus letterboxed (thank you, cable company, for nothin').


[Attachment 8547 - Click to enlarge]

#2: Live HD cable broadcast on PBS of "South Pacific", from cable line splitter (via Acoustic Research Performance Series RG59 "RF" wire) to a Samsung HD->SD downsampling tuner, s-video out at 640x480 full-frame to a Toshiba RD-XS34 at (accidentally) crummy SP recording speed (target bitrate 4600 kbps) and flagged in the recorder for 16:9 display. No retouching or post-processing, except for resizing here from 720x480 to 720x405 for true 16:9. After all those RF/s-video connections and resampling, we still have usable video that looks decent on a 50-inch HDTV.


[Attachment 8548 - Click to enlarge]

BTW, the AR RF cable and the AR composite are the only AR Performance Series cables we like.

#3: from a damaged VHS tape of the movie "Lili". No color correction, but we think it's somewhat overly-denoised and oversharpened (even at only 25% sharpen, reduced from NeatVideo's default 100%). Old retail VHS tape played on a budget Panasonic PV-8662 VCR -> AR Performance Series composite out -> Toshiba RD-X2 DVD recorder used a pass-thru line-level TBC -> s-video out to an AVT-8710 TBC -> s-video out to Sign Video PA-100 proc amp for luma levels only -> s-video to ATI 9600XT AIW capture card -> VirtualDub capture to huffyuv YUY2 640x280 AVI -> RGB32 via VirtualDub (big mistake!). That's one AR composite and 3 "Gee-Eee" s-video connections. This isn't the "final". I'm re-doing this video. As you can see from jaggy edges on the shadow on the sofa mid-screen, VirtualDub screwed up the interlacing when converting to RGB (I shoulda used AviSynth. Now in the process of re-doing every frame of this entire movie, dammit!) It's the only VHS capture I happened to have on hand today. Given the hobbyist-level equipment and source, we think the budget cables worked OK.


[Attachment 8549 - Click to enlarge]

[sanlyn]

You'll either have to make it yourself, or find an S-video cable that breaks out into two RCA/phonos (one luma, one chroma), and then just connect the luma to composite output.

I made one by cutting one end off an old S-video cable and soldering phono plugs onto the bare wires.

Trying to Google for it, I just find lots of cables with S-video + 2 phonos at both ends which isn't what you want at all.

Cheers,
David.

A friend of mine used a $12 breakout adapter from BlueJeansCable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/svideo/index.htm, and scroll down). They require coax cables with BNC connectors, which seems to be the way pros use it. Friend of ours made one of these with Canare cable, but I wasn't impressed. Another guy used Belden 1695a from the same shop and got better results. You can also order a set with your choice of available coax/BNC cables with adapters attached. Not cheap.

[jagabo]

Many capture cards have only a ~7-pin DIN connector where 4 of the pins correspond to an s-video cable. On some of those the the s-video luma input is shared with composite input. You choose whether the input is composite or s-video via software. They include a little adapter with a female RCA input routed to the luma pin of the s-video port. Exactly the same thing that's being discussed here.

[sanlyn]

How this thread got diverted into s-video recommendations is a mystery, but back to the original subject: I think the suggestions for modifying composite output will probably work (pain in the neck, tho). I passed it on to one of our members. I still wonder, though, some channels on new HD boxes have copy protection in their signal. Would these mods bypass that policy? Copy protection on my HD box is the main reason I also keep (and pay rent for) my old SD digital box.

I noticed when capturing via my VCR's composite output: if I feed that signal thru any of my Toshiba DVD recorders that have Y/C-3D input filters (they work only on composite inputs), much of the noise and other problems associated with composite don't seem to appear on the captures. Question is, does Toshiba's Y/C filter do that much work (effectively, it seems the filter is doing what the suggested mods are doing), or is it the built-in TBC, or both?

Sadly my old JVC-with-TBC doesn't work anymore (and no parts, either), so this Toshiba pass-thru has been my workaround for some time. Also discovered that some copy-protected tapes will capture to PC with a cleaner, sharper image if I eliminate one of the processing steps (AVT-8710 not needed); it seems that pass-thru with the Toshiba is ignoring macrovision (?!?). If I try this pass-thruwith my HD box, though, it doesn't work. Phooey.

[jagabo]

some channels on new HD boxes have copy protection in their signal. Would these mods bypass that policy?

It would have no effect on CGMS-A which is part of the picture carried on the luma channel (line 21 in NTSC signals). It would have no effect on the type of Macrovision that uses illegal sync pulse amplitudes. It might have some effect on the type of Macrovision that screws around with the chroma burst signal.

But again, the technique of feeding the composite signal directly into the luma pin of an s-video input will only work reasonably for B/W video. If the composite signal has any color information it will be seen as grayscale herringbone noise in the captured video.

I noticed when capturing via my VCR's composite output: if I feed that signal thru any of my Toshiba DVD recorders that have Y/C-3D input filters (they work only on composite inputs), much of the noise and other problems associated with composite don't seem to appear on the captures. Question is, does Toshiba's Y/C filter do that much work (effectively, it seems the filter is doing what the suggested mods are doing), or is it the built-in TBC, or both?

The 3d comb filter is to remove dot crawl artifacts. The TBC may be doing some additional noise reduction. Either intentionally or unintentionally.

[sanlyn]

Thanks for clarification, jagabo. It's possible some of my VHS ain't really copy protected. Come think of it, I never tried to capture that one directly to a recorder. But removing that extra TBC did make things cleaner. The less processing with VHS, the better.

Shucks, that b/w problem you mention: hope the fix works for the OP. If cable anti-copy keeps going the way it is, I'll just have to find some way to take up a life of crime in that regard.

[nharikrishna]

Great discussions.

I tried my S-Video-RCA cable last night. Satellite box to RCA side of the cable. S-Video side of the cable to Canopus ADVC-110 box.

The result is, one of the two RCA plugs didn't let the Canopus detect any signal. When the other RCA plug was connected, the picture was completely Black & White (even for the color portion of the black & white movie such as the channel's logo). I can't say if the picture quality was better or worse than S-Video to S-Video connection.

I will try and get some screnshots.

The cable that I have has S-Video at one end, and 2 RCA plugs at the other end (red and white).

Regards

[sanlyn]

In the past I've used composite-only many times before I came up with the DVD recorder workaround, but I did convert from composite to s-video using an AVT-8710 TBC. The product works the s-video conversion quite well with no ill effects and a nice reduction in the noise associated with composite. Of course, that means you'd have to buy an AVT-8710 (!). I tried their competitor's TBC's, but their conversion degraded the image.

Any way you look at it, cable providers are doing their best to keep consumers from making their own videos. My major concern with the HD box is that I see many posts claiming that many providers (FIOS and some ComCast areas, for example) are disabling all analog outputs on their equipment. Maybe you can check on that beforehand. In my case, I got a new HD box but kept my old SD digital box. No recording issues with the SD box unless the content provider has copy-protected their own signal (as with Fox Movie Classics, for example).

I also note that some channels are copy-protected thru the HD box (such as Science Channel) but not thru the SD box. Then you have the case where some boxes won't output HDMI and analog at the same time ! Pain in the neck.

[jagabo]

I tried my S-Video-RCA cable last night. Satellite box to RCA side of the cable. S-Video side of the cable to Canopus ADVC-110 box.

The result is, one of the two RCA plugs didn't let the Canopus detect any signal.

All the sync information is detected on the s-video luma pin. Sending a composite signal to the chroma pin would result in no picture since the device would see no sync signals on the luma pin. Exactly what you are seeing.

When the other RCA plug was connected, the picture was completely Black & White (even for the color portion of the black & white movie such as the channel's logo).

Again, this is the expected behavior. S-video carries the grayscale picture and sync on the luma pin. The chroma pin carries the color information. Sending a composite signal into the luma pin, with nothing connected to the chroma pin, will give a grayscale picture.

I can't say if the picture quality was better or worse than S-Video to S-Video connection.

There probably won't be any difference in the resolution. It's the same signal after all. Comb filtering in some devices could degrade the composite resolution -- but that would be device specific. When the video is color the composite-to-luma cable should give some herringbone noise in colored areas. This would be most noticeable with cartoons where you have large areas of bright, flat, saturated colors. The more saturated the colors the more herringbone noise you should see.

The main reason to use s-video (real s-video) instead of composite is to eliminate the multiplexing of color information with the grayscale information. It's hard to completely demux them again for display or capture. Most devices have simple 2d comb filters which leave dot crawl and rainbow artifacts (crosstalk between the luma and chroma). Few device have more sophisticated 3d comb filters which reduce those problems even more. See the SAA7131 image in this post for composite dot crawl and rainbow artifacts:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1940519

Notice the rainbows in the concentric B/W circles in the center. Zoom in and look at the borders between the colored patches. See all the little dots? These are especially annoying because they move, even in a still image. The ATI 650 has a 3d comb filter that eliminates those problems in still picture. Moving pictures may still have them.

[nharikrishna]

Of course, that means you'd have to buy an AVT-8710 (!).

Not an option for me

many providers are disabling all analog outputs on their equipment. Maybe you can check on that beforehand.

Is it really possible that the analog output works when connected to a TV and doesn't work (disabled) when connected to a capture device such as ADVC-110? How does it work exactly? I am not going to record directly as the program gets broadcast, I would be first storing it on the Satellite Box (that has in-built recorder like Tivo), and then will 'capture' it later through analog.

My current SD Satellite Box outputs to both Component and S-Video at the same time. So I play the recorded program on TV (through Component) while capturing it through S-Video. As you said, the HD box I am planning to buy may not allow both Composite and HDMI output at the same time.

Regards

[jagabo]

Is it really possible that the analog output works when connected to a TV and doesn't work (disabled) when connected to a capture device such as ADVC-110?

Macrovision and CGMS-A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rovi_Corporation#Content_protection_.28RipGuard_and_Analo..._Protection.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A

TVs are designed to ignore them. Recording devices are designed to stop recording (or mess up the picture) when they see them.

[nharikrishna]

Thanks jagabo.