My present circumstances require me to be quickly be tutored in order to learn how to use Neoscene with Premiere CS 3.2 so please bear with me. My main questions have to do with what settings are best suited for the source footage and ultimately the end product.
Source footage on master timeline is Canon A1s HDV @60i
Length is around 47 minutes/heavily edited.
Final destination is SD 16:9 (widescreen) to MPEG-2 Dvd
My first successful attempt did not include interlacing the footage when exporting as "movie" to Cineform AVI. Should I have? Would I have obtained better results considering the end product? Please, what are your thoughts on that?
Is it proper to choose the timebase as 29.97 fps instead of 59.94 or 60.00?
What surprised me is the relatively huge amount of HD space taken by the resulting file considering I only selected the "'High HD" setting in Cineform which is not even in the middle of the quality hierarchy. Almost 49 gigs !! Compare that to using the best quality setting with Adobe Media Encoder rendered as an MPEG which roughly 20 gigs less.
I was quite dissappointed with what Neoscene did to the opening series of slides as the vibrancy/appearance took quite a hit.
Also, I do not know if this can be done.
Can one save sequences independent of projects?
Is there a way to:
Export a HDV Sequence (while open on the timeline) in a 60i project to a new project or:
Or after saving that project, import it into a new 16:9 wide-screen NTSC SD project? I can't have Premiere Pro launched simultaneously twice right?
Any advice regarding settings and solutions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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If I had Canon GL-2 Guy's Pentium computer I would probably use Neoscene, too. But handling the humongous *.avi files that result from the conversions will already tax that computer, let alone HDV.
For the nth time, with the possible exception of certain Intel processors, I don't have/ever owned anything whose name starts with "i". -
Lots of issues here but Cineform doesn't explicitly support Premier CS 3.2. They like CS4 and are just releasing support for CS5. But it "should" work. Cineform also spec a higher CPU. Make sure your computer specs are accurate.
Can't write now, will be back later after evening meal.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Listen to (well read) aedipuss...You shouldnīt need to convert your files, just select the HDV NTSC preset in Premiere, thatīs it...edit and export to DVD specs just making sure to keep it interlaced and in the proper field order (for HDV itīs upper, rght?)
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Are you still using a Pentium 4 2.8 GHz (1.2 GB RAM) as listed in your profile?
I assume by Canon A1 you mean XH-A1. That is a nice camcorder.
I don't understand your workflow. It sounds like you are editing HDV then exporting to Cineform?
Normally you would capture/convert your HDV clips into Cineform using HDLink* set 1440x1080 60i (29.97 fps). Use 1440 for smaller files and faster performance. Alternately you could use 1920x1080 60i if you want to mix with other 1920x1080 content on the timeline. It is possible to convert to 60p on import but the files get much larger. Cineform 60i works fine to 60i DVD.
http://techblog.cineform.com/?page_id=1288
http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=1284
http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=288
General HDV workflow for 60i is to capture in HDLink, import the Cineform encoded avi files to a 1440x1080 60i (10 bit, upper field first) project. When finished save 1440x1080 60i to Cineform format as edit master. You can also export to other HD formats.
For DVD Cineform recommends you first export to 720x480 60i Cineform format. That way the downsize is done by Cineform software not Adobe's. Then you create a new Premiere 720x480 project, import the downsized Cineform file, then encode for DVD MPeg2. The 60i HD to 60i DVD quality is much better than using Premiere downsize.
http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=1767
* Neoscene comes with a feature reduced version of HDLink for capture/conversion.
Neoscene increases bit depth to 10 bits, converts 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 and lowers compression (i.e. makes files larger) for better perfomance on the timeline vs. MPeg2 (i.e. less CPU load). Cineform's wavelet compression also has much better generational performance.
The smaller the file, the more sluggish the timeline.Last edited by edDV; 29th Aug 2011 at 17:02.
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Slides can be loaded to timeline using Premiere (i.e. let Premiere scale the stills).
There should be no quality change on HD export. Downsize for DVD will cut resolution to 720x480.
Sure, as sub-projects. Cineform has great multi-generation performance.
You first capture HDV to Cineform format in HDLink. Then archive both your HDV and Cineform capture files.
Your Premiere project will use the Cineform files. You can save sequences to HD Cineform and combine later in a separate project.
Not sure if CS3 supports multiple instances.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Hi,
I may not anser everyone in depth tonight but first I want to both acknowledge and thank all those who have contributed thus far.
1) Yes, I confess my computer profile is ancient and should be updated. Earlier in the year I bought a HP Pavilion Elite at a good price so I could make sure I had a PC that could process HDV, handle Premiere Pro and had CUDA acceleration. It has 3 internal drives, 12 gigs of memory and a I7-2600 Sandy Bridge (2nd generation intel processer). Still need to buy a PCI Express firewire card. Any recommendations?
2) I've been using the freebie HDV Split with great success since June 2010 to capture from tape. AV sync is perfect. Easy to use and does the job well. Acquired Neoscene several months ago antiicpating I'd need it someday.
3) In "high HD quality" mode Cineform, certainly did take the space given on the chart which now makes perfect sense.
4) As I shoot most weekends, having the original .m2t files captured from tape and their Cineform counterparts @ HD quality would relatively quickly fill up a drive. The .m2t files imported from my A1s and borrowed A1 can approach 30 gigs alone which represents about 2.5 hours worth of footage.
5) At what stage in the process is Cineform in making progress towards fully supporting CS 5 or 5.5 so that their products work as designed/intended and is fully compatible?
6) Yes, I have repeatedly tried & experimented exporting the HDV footage straight from the project timeline to Dvd NTSC/MPEG-2 spec with AME, however the end result looked sub-standard to say the least. It was suggested to me that I first export the timeline contents as a movie to Cineform .avi file, then open up a new DV project, import the newly created CF file and then compress to DVD with Adobe Media Encoder. That's where a few of my questions come in.
7) In AME, should I select the de-interlacing option as the footage is 60i. I was told (right or wrong) that 30p would be the result and would yield more professional results with the end target being a MPEG-2 dvd spec file. More smooth or something like that. -
Which leads me to the first new observations of the night:
Maybe the field order selected (upper vs lower) when trying point 6 as given above contributed in some sense to the lack of visual quality after compressing the footage. I may have also selected the wrong profile and level.
So, just in case, would any of you be so kind to lead me to a 1) tutorial on the web, 2) other resource or even explain it to me so that I can thoroughly understand and wrap my head around the following:
CS 3.2 AME has a encoding parameter called profile which are: High/Main/Simple and 4:2:2.
Another highly relevant setting is called level which offers:High/High 1440/Main and Low.
How do I know what combination of the above is best suited for various formats whether it be Full HD,HDV or SD when encoding? -
edDV,
Are you suggesting that having Cineform's HD Link capturing from tape yields superior quality as compared to:
a) HDV Split which makes .m2t files (native format) and
b) Prem Pro which also results in .m2t files.
Anotherwords, doesn't .m2t files constitute the 1st generation source material from tape?
How does Cineform improve on that?
Just trying to digest what you wrote. -
Here's an option:
Could I export the entire HDV 60i timeline via AME to a very high quality "MPEG file" ( not dvd spec at this point) and then utilize HD link to convert it to Cineform file? -
What is your time deadline to discuss this?
It has 3 internal drives, 12 gigs of memory and a I7-2600 Sandy Bridge (2nd generation intel processer).
Are you still on Premiere Pro 3?Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Actually, I'm overdue for my submission however I could submit just something to get by for the very near term.
By that I mean just exporting the edited HDV 1080 60i footage via AME right from the timeline to dvd 16:9 and live with the results this time around. Long-term, I'd really like to learn how to do it right, explore solutions, understand what's going on, how to effectively use the parameters and discuss the matter at length with you if you have the time.
Appreciated! Thanks so much.
Off to dreamland now. -
6) Yes, I have repeatedly tried & experimented exporting the HDV footage straight from the project timeline to Dvd NTSC/MPEG-2 spec with AME, however the end result looked sub-standard to say the least. It was suggested to me that I first export the timeline contents as a movie to Cineform .avi file, then open up a new DV project, import the newly created CF file and then compress to DVD with Adobe Media Encoder. That's where a few of my questions come in.
7) In AME, should I select the de-interlacing option as the footage is 60i. I was told (right or wrong) that 30p would be the result and would yield more professional results with the end target being a MPEG-2 dvd spec file. More smooth or something like that.--
"a lot of people are better dead" - prisoner KSC2-303 -
The specs given above are what I have right now. Not ideal but workable. It's a lot better than what I had earlier in the year.
I have used CS 3.2 for years and am relatively new to Neoscene.
I bought CS 5.5 this summer and basically haven't done much at all with it.
What frustrates me is that when I import a CS3.2 file into 5.5 it throws the AV sync off on some of the tracks!
That's a step backward but don't want to potentially open another can of worms in regards to which version I'm using.
However I know it's highly relevant. -
Aedipus,
Before I turn in for the night, what reccomendations do you have to get a satisfactory result?
Do you have or use any Cineform product?
Do you use any of the tools found on this site in addition to Prem Pro?
Now for the dumb question: before compressing to dvd spec from an HDV/60i project timeline do I select upper or lower field?
Does it make an appreciable difference?
Just asking.
Thanks -
Mealtime here. I'll post later.
Upper for HDV.
Premiere and Vegas suck at 60i downscale for DVD. Cineform does 60i downscale very well.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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I just discovered that Neo is being incorporated into a new product called CineForm Studio Premium!
Neo with its downscaling capabilities may be the way to go although its a $299 "solution". -
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That computer is a different environment completely.
The IEEE-1394 cards are fairly generic. Some prefer the TI chipset over the Via.
The latest release shows the following Windows NLE compatibility
Adobe CS3/CS4/CS5
Avid Media Composer v5
Sony Vegas
Sony Movie Studio
OK, you are shooting 60i HDV, first the project level alternatives
A. Native HDV project: This allows direct editing of the HDV source with output to HDV or other formats. The problem with editing native HDV is the CPU load to do on the fly MPeg2 decoding. As you add video layers for complex editing and/or filters, the process quickly bogs down to a stop and timeline render times expand. You seem to be mostly cutting and your new CPU probably manages to keep up with HDV. If you were using AVCHD format instead, even the i7 would bog down.
B. Cineform (or other digital intermediate) converts the camera format to all I frames with only light intraframe compression. In doing so, Cineform also interpolates 12 bit, 4:2:2 YUV precision. This means less digital artifacting when doing complex filtering including resizing. Premier CS4/CS5 can be set to a 12 bit 4:2:2 1440x1080 60i "YUV" project to take full advantage of Cineform. The downside as you have noted, is file sizes get large but not as large as an uncompressed project and further no RAID is required.
In your case, your editing needs may be met with a native HDV project. Cineform has advantage for complex, layered, highly filtered projects.
I do not recommend deinterlacing 60i to 30p. Premiere and Vegas do a fairly poor job of deinterlace. 30p will also remove half the motion samples making the video look more jerky especially on large screens. For online broadcasting, deinterlace to 30p is required.
If you wanted to deinterlace, or if you shot in 24p mode, a Cineform workflow has great advantage. The HDLink capture program does a better quality deinterlace for 30p and does an inverse telecine for 24p timelines. The higher end Neo product will also upscale 8bit, 4:2:0 60i to 12 bit 4:2:2 60p.
But in your case, a 60i HDV timeline is probably the best plan. You can export as 60i HDV, or Blu-Ray format as either 60i MPeg2 or 60i AVC (h.264) in CS4/CS5.
Now you come to the issue of downsize for DVD release. As said, Premiere is poor at deinterlace and resizing 60i source. It will first deinterlace to 30p, then resize 1440x1080 to 720x480, then re-interlace for DVD.
There are two better ways to do this. Assuming an 8 bit HDV project,
A. Export to a 1440x1080 60i "Blu-Ray" MPeg2 or uncompressed file or frame serve to AVIsynth. Resize in AVIsynth as separate 1440x540 fields (no deinterlace) to 720x240 fields, then re-interlace to 720x480 60i. Then encode that to MPeg2 for DVD either in Premiere or externally.
B. Export to Cineform 1440x1080 60i. Create a new 12 bit YUV 1440x1080 60i project, import the file. Then re-export as Cineform 720x480 60i. This will cause the downsize to occur inside the Cineform codec separate from Premiere. Then encode the resulting file to 720x480i DVD MPeg2 either in Premiere or externally.
First HDV is upper field first so all your project and encoding settings should be upper field first.
Next, follow Premiere templates for 720x480i DVD and/or 1440x1080i Blu-Ray in CS5. All profile/level settings will default correct.
HDVsplit or Premiere capture to a first generation HDV file and the file is first generation on the timeline for an HDV project setting.
HDLink will convert HDV to 12 bits 4:2:2 all I frame Cineform format as explained above.
Yes. Use 1440x1080 60i Blu-Ray or HDV templates.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Ed,
Thanks for the effort and time to answer in depth. This is my first "how to" question with the express objective being to get it accomplished.
Is there a way to break down the following instructions with a more detail or step by step specifics?
"There are two better ways to do this. Assuming an 8 bit HDV project
A. Export to a 1440x1080 60i "Blu-Ray" MPeg2 or uncompressed file or frame serve to AVIsynth. Resize in AVIsynth as separate 1440x540 fields (no deinterlace) to 720x240 fields, then re-interlace to 720x480 60i. Then encode that to MPeg2 for DVD either in Premiere or externally."
You lost me in steps 2 +3 because I do not know Avisynth at all. Is there a guide or tutorial about the resizng and re-interlace bits? -
Greetings edDV,
Last night I downloaded and installed a 15 day trial of Neo. Safe to assume you have it?
To recap: you enthusiastically stated that Cineform did a much better job downsizing from 16:9 1080 60i HDV footage to SD NTSC widescreen 16:9 over Premiere Pro. So I've been trying to feverishly obtain that result.
Here's one of the workflows/options laid out for me to follow:
Project = HDV 1080/60i (Yes, these are all native.m2t files... not raw CF files)
At some point I'll have both to work with. I already had a nearly finished project in the pipeline to use, so all of the capturing and importing was done long ago.
1) Export the timeline to Blu-ray-H.264 or a high quality MPEG/HDV preset using Prem Pro's AME. Yields an .m2t or .h264 file.
2) Use Neo internal capabilites (convert/resize) to downsize that file from HDV 16:9 to SD widescreen (16:9). Yields a Cineform .avi file.
3) Open up a new NTSC SD project in Prem Pro, load Cineform .avi file and then export to MPEG-2 dvd. No interlacing recommended whatsoever right?
Step 2 is the current roadblock. Conducted some tests. Here are the preference settings:
a) Kept aspect ratio (16:9)
b) "I" frames only.
c) Frame format is automatic or interlaced.
The results utilizing the resizing modes listed below yielded the following when directly compared to the original .m2t clip as viewed on a NTSC DV project timeline & elsewhere.
i) SD NTSC 4:3 letterbox- looked natural aspect-wise, however it had a black border all the way around/entirely framed in black. Lots of area vanished.
ii) SD NTSC 4:3 centered- obviously the outside ends were cropped but it looked right. That will cause problems on a tight shot and potentially cut-off body parts.
iii) SD NTSC 16:9- Surprise! The footage was squished from the ends into & towards the middle. Too much disappeared from both ends. Where there were no pillars on each side, now there are. The person in the middle who was speaking now looks like she suddenly got extremely thin and tall. Distorted perspective. Like one of those amusement fun hall mirrors.
What am I missing here or do wrong? Hope it was from a wrong combination of parameters. Am I expecting too much?
To me the term "widescreen" means a wider result after downsizing when displayed as opposed to 4:3. The goal is to preserve the aspect ratio intact however some quality was lost in the process.
What I don't want to do is:
1) Have the footage further blown up by the cable station when broadcast or:
2) Air it with too much black space, i.e. it shrank or the proportions don't look right.
Any input, observations or advice?
This is a key mystery to unlock before I can decide if Neo is right for the job as described above.
More discussion to come.
Thanks in advance.
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Would screenshots of the before and after the SD NTSC 16:9 resize be helpful?
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SD NTSC 16:9 is the one you should be using if it was derived from 16:9 HDV footage
Right click the re-imported SD cineform footage in the clip bin and interpret the aspect ratio to NTSC DV Widescreen (1.2121). Often intermediate files get interpreted by premiere as "square pixel" (1.0) -
Bbl
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Bbl? What does that stand for?
Thanks poisondeathray for the tip. I'm reading this very late at night so as soon as I can I'll give it a whirl. -
bbl = be back later
No. My statements above were for Neoscene with one exception. You need Neo only if you want to upconvert 60i to 60p. That feature is missing in Neoscene.
I'd suggest you use high bit rate Blu-Ray 60i MPeg2 or uncompressed. I don't have CS3 to evaluate AME h.264.
It is important to understand DVD only supports 60i (59.94) or 24p (23.976) although 30p can be faked as 60i.
That is why HDV -> DVD is a 60i to 60i process.
DVD must be 60i (720x480, 29.97, upper field first)
16x9 (wide) PAR = 1.2121
Is the goal a wide DVD or 4:3 DVD?
For a 16:9 wide DVD you resize 1440x1080 to 720x480. The file properties should show 16x9 with PAR = 1.2121.
Your PP CS3 project should be DV wide 720x480 29.97 upper field first. Your DVD encode should show similar properies.
Four side black results from incorrect settings such as 16:9 letterbox into a wide DVD encode.
If cable access is the goal you need to decide between letterbox 16:9 in a 4:3 DVD or a pan/scan of 16:9 to 4:3.
For letterbox you spec wide in a 4:3 DVD encode.
For Pan/Scan follow instructions in CS3 help.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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After going through the above I think we are missing a clear statement of project goal.
The HDV -> HDV or HDV -> Blu-Ray portions of the project are all 16:9 1440x1080 60i.
I assumed the SD downscale to DVD would also be 16:9.
But now you mention the target is SD 4:3 for cable access. Is this correct?
If so you need to decide if you want letterbox, center crop or pan/scan.Last edited by edDV; 2nd Sep 2011 at 01:45.
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The way to do this in the future is to follow what the local TV and network news stations do.
Mark your camera viewfinders* with 4:3 action safe rectangle and frame important action inside that rectangle. That is all that will be seen by the 4:3 audience if you do the center crop to 4:3.
* use transparent plastic over LCD
Alternative is letterbox.
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