PAL video on NTSC HD TV Best motion Playback

[Deter]

Hi,

Live in the United States and use NTSC:

Have a few recordings that are PAL videos recorded from a PAL DVD recorder & PAL HD recorder.

The video are PAL VHS tapes converted to DVD for the most part. (some of it is digital TV used for testing)

The recordings were recorded on three different machines.
1) Panasonic HD Recorder to standard def
2) Toshiba DVD recorder
3) JVC MV1 (PAL) - (very close to the USA/CANADA model)

We have tried the following and have got some better results:

UK Panasonic SVHS player w/ TBC to external TBC to JVC Recorder
UK Panasonic SVHS player w/ TBC to external TBC to HD Recorder

In the beginning used the following:

Normal VCR to Toshiba recorder with scart leads
Now we are using S-Video

Unlike the normal region 2 DVD's that I have purchased, these recordings seem to have sort of a motion problem. The videos kind of don't play that smooth. Not sure the reason for this, it could be the DVD recorder which was used an how the machine codes the video. On the PC, the motion is usually better. (the ones with the worst motion problems are still kind of choppy)

Stock Recording at 25 frames per second plays fine

Home DVD recorder recorded videos play with un-smooth motion

One of the things I have done in the past is re-recorded the videos to NTSC using a Time Based Corrector to improve the motion in the video. This has helped a bit.

Was wondering the following: (have a bunch of these recording)

Purchase some kind of PAL DVD recorder just for these videos?

Purchase another TV for these videos?

(Currently have two machines) - One Recorder is a stripped out region 1 machine purchased from Bombay electronics. The other is a JVC Player that plays any video.

What about a region free Blu-Ray Player?

Took a PAL DVD recorded from the PANASONIC HD RECORDER - NORMAL DIGITAL UK TV PROGRAM

Tested out the following yesterday: Left everything PAL
1) Re-coded the PAL video to Top Field First
2) Re-coded the PAL video to Bottom Field First
3) Re-coded the Video to Progressive
4) Kept the source recording

After the test watched all three of the videos...

The progressive video seemed to play the best
Top Field & the Bottom Field couldn't tell that much of a difference between the 2.
(If I had to pick - Top Field seemed to be smoother)

Than the source video.....

All the re-coded videos seemed to play better than the source....

ANY ADVISE?

(Have made great progress, just from the hardware)

Maybe other things can be done or different hardware used to improve the over all motion and flow of the picture.

[hech54]

How do they look on your computer?

[Deter]

They look ok on the PC (remind you the picture quality on the PC never looks as good the TV), the ones w/ the really bad motion still look choppy.

For the Testing, those videos were not played back on DVD, they were tested on the TV playing them from a hard drive media player.

The overall problem could be a lot of different things.

The Refresh rate? Maybe?

[jagabo]

Capture PAL video with PAL specs: 720x576, 25 fps. Then do the NTSC conversion in software. Exactly what form that conversion takes depends on the nature of the particular PAL video.

Post some short samples of the problematic videos.

[Deter]

Please understand:

Store Purchased Region2 DVD's play perfect on my system:



By posting a clip, would have to re-render the video, in that process alone, it makes the video play smoother.

To see the motion issues, you would have to play the source DVD. Can send u one of those in the mail.....

The pace of the film doesn't play in a fluid motion...

The speed of the film doesn't seem to play in the manor of how it was shot on video or film. It seems to be slow at points than back to normal.

No idea if that was how it was recorded on VHS or if it is a coding issue with the PAL Recorder...

I understand we are in the dark here!

Didn't record these videos nor have I ever seen them played on the VCR, the only thing I have is the DVD copy.

Everything on these DVD's are PAL, they have not been altered.


In the process of trying to improve the motion, some are converted to NTSC

DVD Recorder ----) TBC ----) NTSC Recorder


Would like to cut out these steps, and really don't have software to do PAL to NTSC conversions.

Would like to leave the videos w/ PAL specs

Was wondering about the re-rendering of the video:

Should it be:

Progressive ---) For smoother motion (However on the Old School 480 TV's it looks like Crap)
Top Field First
Bottom Field First

It is understood, some DVD players play DVD better than others.

From the picture quality to the rendering of the video.

This may be a hard question:
For playback of PAL material in the United States what are the best DVD or Blu-Ray players for this.

Question:
Could you purchase a DVD player in the UK and plug it to the wall and have it work in the United States?

Any information about PAL material would help.

On the flip side, all the NTSC stuff plays perfect on the PAL DVD players; from what I have been told.


My goal is to learn more about why these videos have motion problems. Like I have stated before, with the use of different hardware and TBC's the motion has gotten better. We have done some fixes for this, but the problem has never be solved.

[manono]

By posting a clip, would have to re-render the video, in that process alone, it makes the video play smoother.

No, just cut a small piece from the source, 10 seconds or so showing steady movement. Open a VOB in DGIndex, use the [ and ] buttons to mark off a section, and then File->Save Project and Demux Video. Upload the resulting M2V to Sendspace or MediaFire and post the link.

No one can help without samples.

[poisondeathray]

By posting a clip, would have to re-render the video, in that process alone, it makes the video play smoother.

You don't have to re-render it

Load in DGIndex, use the "[" and "]" buttons to mark in/out a selection, file=>save project. This will save an elementary .m2v video same as the original

EDIT: manono types too fast

[2Bdecided]

Please understand:

Store Purchased Region2 DVD's play perfect on my system:

Movies or sports content?

Hollywood Movies are always* 25p on "PAL" DVDs.
Home movies, sports broadcasts, most soap operas, news, etc are always* 50i on "PAL" DVDs.

The two look very different when played back originally (i.e. in PAL-land!). 25p is slightly stuttery. 50i is completely smooth.
In NTSC-land, movies are usually 24p-in-60i with 3-2 pulldown - more stuttery than movies in PAL-land.

If your DVD player is converting PAL to NTSC, then 25p movies converted to 60i will probably look no worse than the "normal" NTSC-land 24p-in-60i. Whereas 50i converted to 60i will look even more jumpy than the 24p, and far far more jumpy than 60i.


This assume you have a genuine true PAL capture of your PAL tapes. You might not have.


If you really want to watch your PAL home movies (or sports videos) properly, the best way is to capture as PAL, and watch via a DVD player than plays "PAL" as "PAL", and a TV that can display "PAL" - many American TVs can't display 50Hz ("PAL") video at all, but some can via HDMI or component.

The second best way is to capture properly as PAL, then perform the conversion to NTSC using an AVIsynth script which does the best free job possible. Then author an NTSC DVD and watch it like any other NTSC DVD.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.

P.S. A TBC is not a fix for motion problems, unless it's fixing dropped frames due to capturing problems from an unstable source. Using a TBC to force a conversion from PAL to NTSC (it can be done!) is a terrible solution.

* = generalisation!