HD cam under $800

[edDV]

Well, I have an FX7 coming. Would you be so kind as to give me some advice. I know I will have to read and learn but advice from the gurus will only make it that much easier to understand.
When videoing, are there any settings that are a must. Action filming of football and basketball will be the things it will be used for. I will be mainly burning to DVD during the season for quick render in the evening and quick turnaround as I will start at the earliest in the eve around 10 and must be done by 6am., but this should still give me pretty good quality compared to an SD cam, right?

To sum up what I said above for your situation. Your situation is your primary distribution need is an SD DVD but you want an HD master to make periodic Blu-Ray highlight reels. I assume an HD archive also adds value for future work. You also have a need for fast editing/encoding for the DVD release.

Shooting HD does not always give higher quality DVD result compared to shooting with a high quality SD camcorder. This is particularly true for fast paced sports which need 60 motion samples per second vs 30 or 24.

Above I showed 60i HD downscale to 60i DVD in programs like Final Cut, Premiere or Vegas typically produces mediocre DVD quality due to their method of downscale. An external AVIsynth workflow is needed for a quality downscale or the use of a digital intermediate with scaling features in the codec (like Cineform) are the answer. Disadvantage is a more complex workflow and longer render times.

I also showed above that shooting 1080 or 720 60p has advantage for downscale to a 60i DVD at least for Vegas Pro. A 1080/720 60p project timeline scaled very well to a 60i DVD because deinterlace was avoided. Disadvantage is longer downsize render/encode times from an HD 60p source. It should be noted here that the 1280x720 60p format (as used by ABC/Fox/ESPN sports) offers the best compromise of HD/DVD quality with reasonable render times. The problem here is good 720p camcorders are well outside your budget range.

We also discussed the advantages of the HDV format camcorders which record 1440x1080 60i HD to tape but can down convert real time in the camcorder hardware for 720x480 60i DV format capture over IEEE-1394 (Firewire). That way you can have an HD camera master tape but can edit quickly in 720x480 SD and encode directly to 60i DVD for the fastest SD workflow. Programs like Vegas Pro are also excellent for editing both 1440x1080 and 720x480 source using the same project file. First you edit at say 720x480 to DVD, then you change project resolution and render the HD source to Blu-Ray.

As for camera settings, default auto exposure modes will get good results under flat stadium or basketball court lighting. Concentrate on white balance and focus. Worst case is shooting an outdoor day game where lighting is uneven and white balance shifts during the play. Best to white balance each quarter.

I will want to burn one to bluray for the one game film each week if that will be possible. At the end of the season when I make the highlight film I want to give people a choice between bluray or DVD when they get them. How will I accomplish this? What say you for some advice king of edit.

I don't understand "I will want to burn one to bluray for the one game film each week".

Do you mean the entire game or just highlight plays?

Are you saying you want to make a Blu-Ray each week or at some other rate?

[ingeborgdot]

Here is how it works for me. I need to have a dvd ready for the coach to trade by 6am. Quick rendering is important to get this done because I have to edit also which as you know takes a little time. Well, after that I make DVDs for the other coaches to look at. All of these for time constraint and also budget would best be in SD. I would like to have each game for us to watch periodically on a bluray too if that would be possible. One game a week, full game, on bluray.
At the end of the year as I compile all of the highlights throughout the year I would like to give the players a choice as to whether they would like to have it on bluray or DVD. Does this make any sense?

[ingeborgdot]

So, you are saying if I understand right that to film it's pretty much auto and I should be fine. Then if I capture with firewire it converts it to 720x480 (or do I have to change some setting?) But now I don't have HD in the computer yet as it is still on the tape, right? I would have to capture later and in HD. How do I capture in HD? I don't have the cam yet so I am asking. I am just a little bit confused about this but once I get going I should understand.

[edDV]

So, you are saying if I understand right that to film it's pretty much auto and I should be fine. Then if I capture with firewire it converts it to 720x480 (or do I have to change some setting?) But now I don't have HD in the computer yet as it is still on the tape, right? I would have to capture later and in HD. How do I capture in HD? I don't have the cam yet so I am asking. I am just a little bit confused about this but once I get going I should understand.

I'll answer this one first.

Start with auto exposure. Hopefully the lighting is fairly even on the field so auto adjustments will be minimal. White balance may or may not be even over the field. You need to find a white object in the most representative area then lock white balance. Best to have constant white balance in case you need to color correct later. If you take a crowd shot, color balance will be incorrect but you can fix that in post. For focus auto vs manual depends on the type of shot. During shooting you will mostly be dealing with zoom and focus. Observe how the pros manage zoom and focus in NFL games. Best to work a bit wider than them since you only have one camera. Tight shots may miss the play.

You have a switch on the camera (or a selection in menus) that selects HDV or 720x480i DV output over Firewire. If you want both, a separate capture is needed. There will be a separate setting that determines whether HDV, DV (4:3) or DV Wide is recorded.

For DV capture I like WinDV. For HDV capture use HDVSplit or Vegas. I like to capture the entire tape to one file. The gives a continuous time code reference. If you want to edit in SD first, when you later capture again in HDV try to get a match on timecode. That will simplify editing the HD version.

[ingeborgdot]

So, you are saying if I understand right that to film it's pretty much auto and I should be fine. Then if I capture with firewire it converts it to 720x480 (or do I have to change some setting?) But now I don't have HD in the computer yet as it is still on the tape, right? I would have to capture later and in HD. How do I capture in HD? I don't have the cam yet so I am asking. I am just a little bit confused about this but once I get going I should understand.

You have a switch on the camera (or a selection in menus) that selects HDV or 720x480i DV output over Firewire. If you want both, a separate capture is needed. There will be a separate setting that determines whether HDV, DV (4:3) or DV Wide is recorded.

For DV capture I like WinDV. For HDV capture use HDVSplit or Vegas. I like to capture the entire tape to one file. The gives a continuous time code reference. If you want to edit in SD first, when you later capture again in HDV try to get a match on timecode. That will simplify editing the HD version.

Okay, I think I have it but still want to ask. If I would capture in HD I can't print it to DVD then right? I would have to print to bluray?

By the way, you are an awesome guy. Helping out ignorant guys like me with your superior wealth of knowledge is just such a nice gesture. I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate it. Thanks and thanks again.

[edDV]

Here is how it works for me. I need to have a dvd ready for the coach to trade by 6am. Quick rendering is important to get this done because I have to edit also which as you know takes a little time. Well, after that I make DVDs for the other coaches to look at. All of these for time constraint and also budget would best be in SD. I would like to have each game for us to watch periodically on a bluray too if that would be possible. One game a week, full game, on bluray.
At the end of the year as I compile all of the highlights throughout the year I would like to give the players a choice as to whether they would like to have it on bluray or DVD. Does this make any sense?

First, make sure you backup all capture files to a separate disk. Keep both the SD and HD versions.

So for fastest editing you would capture SD, edit then render for DVD MPeg2 then author/burn the DVD. I'm assuming you know how to do this.

Later when not time pressed capture the HD version trying to keep time codes the same as the SD capture. There are time code utilities that can correct this later if necessary. You should be able to start with your SD Project file, change the project resolution to 1440x1080i, top field first, then import the HDV captue version. Make the file names the same or use Vegas' mode to point to missing media. Once you get this set up, you should be able to render and preview without further editing. You would then encode for Blu-Ray in either MPeg2 or Sony AVC formats.

Blu-Ray authoring might get complicated but you also have the option to make a simplified "AVCHD" disc to BD or DVDR media.

[ingeborgdot]

I have been making DVDs for years from Vegas, so yes I understand the SD process. Maybe not as well as you but I do understand it. When you say keep the time codes the same why would I be doing this? Am I going to be replacing the SD with the HD?
When you say make the file names the same that gets a little confusing at this point but I am sure that when I get the camera and try it out I will see it better.

[edDV]

So, you are saying if I understand right that to film it's pretty much auto and I should be fine. Then if I capture with firewire it converts it to 720x480 (or do I have to change some setting?) But now I don't have HD in the computer yet as it is still on the tape, right? I would have to capture later and in HD. How do I capture in HD? I don't have the cam yet so I am asking. I am just a little bit confused about this but once I get going I should understand.

You have a switch on the camera (or a selection in menus) that selects HDV or 720x480i DV output over Firewire. If you want both, a separate capture is needed. There will be a separate setting that determines whether HDV, DV (4:3) or DV Wide is recorded.

For DV capture I like WinDV. For HDV capture use HDVSplit or Vegas. I like to capture the entire tape to one file. The gives a continuous time code reference. If you want to edit in SD first, when you later capture again in HDV try to get a match on timecode. That will simplify editing the HD version.

Okay, I think I have it but still want to ask. If I would capture in HD I can't print it to DVD then right? I would have to print to bluray?

By the way, you are an awesome guy. Helping out ignorant guys like me with your superior wealth of knowledge is just such a nice gesture. I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate it. Thanks and thanks again.

You're welcome.

If you capture and edit HD first, you run into all the downsize and long render issues.

By definition DVD (playable in a DVD player) is either

720/704x480 60i (MPeg2 only)
or
720/704x480 23.976p (MPeg2 only)

It is possible to put HDV MPeg2 or AVCHD h.264 high definition files* on a so called "AVCHD" disc (BD or DVDR media) but that won't play in a DVD player, only in a Blu-Ray player.

I suggest you get your SD capture work flow to DVD working first, then you can learn how to do the HDV to Blu-Ray when not under time pressure.


*m2ts wrapper required.

[ingeborgdot]

*m2ts wrapper required.
What is this?

[edDV]

*m2ts wrapper required.
What is this?

An AVCHD disc video file must have m2ts wrapper. Can be h.264, MPeg2 or VC-1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_transport_stream

HDV comes from the camcorder in a ts (mts) wrapper.

[ingeborgdot]

Okay, I am reading my manual and playing with the cam. Like you said earlier if I am going to take and HDV recorded tape and capture to my computer in SD I will have to change something in the menu, RIGHT?
Next, you say you would capture in HDV with Vegas or whatever, and in SD with WinDV. Would it be okay to capture with Vegas? I know some don't like it but would it be okay or does it lose quality or what? Thanks.

[edDV]

Okay, I am reading my manual and playing with the cam. Like you said earlier if I am going to take and HDV recorded tape and capture to my computer in SD I will have to change something in the menu, RIGHT?
Next, you say you would capture in HDV with Vegas or whatever, and in SD with WinDV. Would it be okay to capture with Vegas? I know some don't like it but would it be okay or does it lose quality or what? Thanks.

For HDV the program HDVsplit is simple and not as complicated as the Vegas capture program. Vegas as more features but is more difficult to configure. There is no difference in quality. They both take the information from tape to to file without conversion.

I'd have to find a pdf of the manual to figure the menus.


PS: Found the manual online. See P-69-70 for camera format and iLink (IEEE-1394) transfer settings. If you shoot HDV format, the "iLink Conv" "on" setting downconversts iLink transfer to DV Wide.

[ingeborgdot]

I found the place you are talking about when I had some chances to play with it. It seems pretty cut and dried on how to do it. I do have a question though as I took the cam to the game tonight but did not use it other than to play with it until we get used to it by next week. I had the cam on but as it got darker outside I looked through the cam and it was also somewhat dark. I pushed the button on the outside of the camera that says something about the auto iris and it brightened up and looked great. I hope you understand what I am talking about as it is late for me and I am tired. Is there anything that a person needs to set to have it adjust to the changing darkness or do you just push that button? Am I missing some auto setting in the menu to have the lens keep auto adjusting to the dimming light as it gets darker outside????

[ingeborgdot]

Hey ed. I have the same question I had before but now I have my new i72600K oclocked to 4.0 so it smokes. I have a great card and Vegas Pro 11. Would it now be possible to just capture everything in HD and when I go to burn my DVD(not bluray) for the coaches it will work just fine when it down sizes it to SD in Vegas? This way I would only have to capture everything once.

[edDV]

I found the place you are talking about when I had some chances to play with it. It seems pretty cut and dried on how to do it. I do have a question though as I took the cam to the game tonight but did not use it other than to play with it until we get used to it by next week. I had the cam on but as it got darker outside I looked through the cam and it was also somewhat dark. I pushed the button on the outside of the camera that says something about the auto iris and it brightened up and looked great. I hope you understand what I am talking about as it is late for me and I am tired. Is there anything that a person needs to set to have it adjust to the changing darkness or do you just push that button? Am I missing some auto setting in the menu to have the lens keep auto adjusting to the dimming light as it gets darker outside????

You need to adjust both exposure and color balance.

Late afternoon light goes from normal daylight to bluish shade and golden sunlight. When the sun drops below the horizon, twilight goes blueish but when they turn the lights on those are mostly yellow. Auto iris will keep levels close but you need to white balance periodicaly.

You need to find something white (or slightly powder blue*) on the lit field for periodic white balance. If nothing exists, try to put something out there like a sign or banner. The light will be changing white shades until it is fully dark lit only by the field lights.


*If white balance on a white card causes your video to appear too blue (often the case in late afternoon shade) a powder blue card adds more yellow which will probably better match the stadium lights later in the game. This takes experimentation.

[edDV]

Hey ed. I have the same question I had before but now I have my new i72600K oclocked to 4.0 so it smokes. I have a great card and Vegas Pro 11. Would it now be possible to just capture everything in HD and when I go to burn my DVD(not bluray) for the coaches it will work just fine when it down sizes it to SD in Vegas? This way I would only have to capture everything once.

Yes the story has changed. Try it both ways and see if you can live with the encoding time difference.

[ingeborgdot]

Thanks ed. I have never made blu-ray before and did not realize there are so many settings to choose from. When I go into DVD Arch. 5.2 it has a bunch and I am not sure what to use. I am not making any bluray yet so that can wait, but I do have another question. Okay, I have captured the video into the computer in HDV from my Sony FX7 so it is HD. I have a question though about rendering and burning to DVD. Can I render in HDV 1080i-60 and then use DVD Arch. to burn a DVD or will the file be too big? I have not tried it yet and don't want to do it if it won't work. Do I just need to go into render as and go to NTSC Widescreen for arch and render it that way? I may not have explained myself enough like usual but I am not sure what info you need. By the way, Merry Christmas.

[edDV]

Thanks ed. I have never made blu-ray before and did not realize there are so many settings to choose from. When I go into DVD Arch. 5.2 it has a bunch and I am not sure what to use. I am not making any bluray yet so that can wait, but I do have another question. Okay, I have captured the video into the computer in HDV from my Sony FX7 so it is HD. I have a question though about rendering and burning to DVD. Can I render in HDV 1080i-60 and then use DVD Arch. to burn a DVD or will the file be too big? I have not tried it yet and don't want to do it if it won't work. Do I just need to go into render as and go to NTSC Widescreen for arch and render it that way? I may not have explained myself enough like usual but I am not sure what info you need. By the way, Merry Christmas.

I "render as" MPeg2 Blu-Ray template in Vegas Pro. You can use MPeg2 1440x1080i template @ 25 Mbps and it won't re-encode*. HDV is already Blu-Ray ready. You can fit about 2 Hours of 25 Mb/s HD MPeg2 on a 25 GB BD disc. If you need longer, you can use "Sony AVC" Blu-Ray settings.

For DVD "render as" with one of the MPeg2 DVD Architect templates.

If you do this correctly, DVD Architect will accept the assets without re-encode for either Blu-Ray or DVD authoring.


* won't re-encode unfiltered HDV GOPs. For smart rendering to work, the project setting and "render as" settings should be 1440x1080, 29.97 upper field first and 25 Mbps CBR. The Blu-Ray template will convert audio from mp2 to AC3 or if you choose, PCM.

[edDV]

For Blu-Ray

[ingeborgdot]

On the slider for video quality, do you recommend the default setting or all the way to 31?

[edDV]

On the slider for video quality, do you recommend the default setting or all the way to 31?

Sony says leave it where the template puts it.
http://www.sonytalk.com/rendering-video-quality-slider-t54241.html

So when rendering HDV to Blu-Ray leave it centered.

When rendering HDV to DVD it should default to the right (high)

[edDV]

Note that template choices that match the project setting have an equals sign "=" at left. These should smart render when the bit rate matches the source.

[ingeborgdot]

I read in that link and it makes sense but I have a question still. In file and properties what should Full resolution rendering quality be set to? Recorded in HD but on the FX7 down converted at the camera to SD, so capture was actually SD and going to DVD A NTSC W .

[ingeborgdot]

I also have a question about some things in render as for SD right now.

[ingeborgdot]

Read below.

[ingeborgdot]

Skip

[ingeborgdot]

Skip.

[ingeborgdot]

Here is a list of the options I do have. Not all look like yours or is that your render as drop down?

[ingeborgdot]

I figured it out that it has to be your render as box. Mine just looks different is what threw me off. I do have hopefully one last thing. Default Bluray in render as has no audio checked. What would you do. Is it just not easier to have it checked?

[ingeborgdot]

I just read something about disabling smart sampling for motion video. They say it makes it much sharper. What do you say about that? Is it worth it. Is is also worth it to move the pixel format to 32bit full instead of 8bit? As for mainconcept mpeg 2 settings do I use best or good? I read in that link something about if it is a DV and you are working only with that straight across you put it to good. If it is HD down to DV you put it at best. Is that right? What other settings for HD am I missing that you would make sure are right? I just want to make sure my first blurays are not coasters because they are not cheap, that's for sure. I am actually even a little nervous in making it. Thanks.