HD cam under $800

[ingeborgdot]

I am looking but is there any special thing besides raw footage I should be looking for? Mpeg2, M2T ?

[edDV]

Look for an action clip, ideally a night sport game.

AVCHD 1920x1080 60i @ 24 mbps m2ts

TM900 1920x1080 60p @ 28 mbps m2ts

[ingeborgdot]

So should I go and search and say AVCHD 1920x1080 60i @ 24 mbps m2ts or TM900 1920x1080 60p @ 28 mbps m2ts

[edDV]

OK did a quick test of Vegas with good results. I didn't have a 1920x1080 60p sample but have lots of 1280x720 60p.

Source was a PBS 1280x720/60p MPeg2 broadcast captured direct as mts.

I decoded the MPeg2 to Sony YUV 4:2:2 codec (720 60p uncompressed project).

Then I exported a clip to 480i DVD at 9500 kbps CBR ("render as" 720x480, 29.97, upper field first)

The upper picture is a frame capture of the 720x480i render. After 60p->60i conversion, both fields are distinct as they should be.

I then played the 480i file in my Sony BVP player and stepped through frame by frame at 60p (post deinterlace) and could see all fields converted back to frames. The lower picture was recorded off the BVP composite output as a sample of the deinterlace.


click on picture to see full size

What this shows is Vegas Pro 10e can properly convert 60p to DVD 480 60i. It also shows a good progressive DVD/Blu-Ray player or HDTV can convert the resulting 480 60i back to 60p.


PS: Here is the other field from the Blu-Ray player.

[edDV]

So should I ...

The above means the TM900 @60p is likley to work well for your needs but it would be best to test a real TM900 file*.

But you will need a fast CPU for speed.


*Sony may engage a grudge to block Panasonic anything (ref "cats and dogs").

[edDV]

While I had all this set up, I decided to run a 1920x1080 60i clip with similar arm movement through Vegas to show the difference between 60p and 60i source.

For 60i source, Vegas will first deinterlace to 1920x1080 29.97p, then resize to 720x480 29.97p, then re-interlace to 29.97i (aka 60i) for DVD. Both fields will be taken from the same progressive frame so motion samples are cut in half. Worse than that are the deinterlace artifacts. Vegas will follow the deinterlace method specified in project settings.

Deinterlace = None ... this shows typical interlace resize artifacts.

click on picture for full size

Deinterlace = Blend Fields ... depending on motion, blend tends to show double imaging and smear.


Deinterlace = Interpolate Fields ... interpolates a new frame using data from both fields. This usually gives the best result of the three.


Conclusion: If your goal is a 720x480i or 720x576i DVD, you will get superior results in Vegas if you shoot 60p/50p instead of 60i/50i.

If instead you used an AVIsynth script to individually resize fields before encoding for DVD, then the 60i/50i results would be similar to 60p/50p.

[ingeborgdot]

Wow! I am in the process of talking to my donor to provide me with more funds to get the FX7. Would I be better off with that?

[edDV]

Wow! I am in the process of talking to my donor to provide me with more funds to get the FX7. Would I be better off with that?

Alt1: HDR-FX7

Pro:
Fastest standard def workflow to DVD (if you capture std def from the camcorder).
HDV on tape for future HD edit.
No need to upgrade computer or Vegas.
MiniDV tapes are cheaper and offer convenient backup.

Con:
More costly camcorder
Not optimal for highest quality HD sports workflow (i.e. 60i not 60p)

Alt2: HDC-TM900

Pro:
High quality 1920x1080 60p master
High quality 60p->60i down conversion to 480i DVD (as shown above)
Better low light performance
Lower camcorder cost
Faster capture if copied from SD card (requires SD card reader for computer)

Con:
Requires fast computer and Vegas upgrades (wait for Vegas Pro 11)
HD timeline and down conversion filtering are compute intensive (longer rendering)
No Vegas smart render yet for AVCHD format.
High SD flash card cost (best to use a Level 10 SD card)

The main new news is confirmation that HD 60p to 480i DVD works well for Vegas. The rest you need to decide.

[ingeborgdot]

Con: Not optimal for highest quality HD sports workflow (i.e. 60i not 60p) but this is going to still be a pretty impressive picture, right?

[edDV]

Con: Not optimal for highest quality HD sports workflow (i.e. 60i not 60p) but this is going to still be a pretty impressive picture, right?

Yes 1440x1080 60i HDV MPeg2 @25 Mbps

The FX7 has 3x 1/4" CMOS sensors similar to the TM900.

My HDR-Z1U (similar to the FX1) has 3x 1/3" CCD sensors so does much better in low light.

My point above was Vegas does much better converting 60p to 480i DVD compared to 60i.


You seem to care most about work flow speed to a DVD. That favors a standard def DV format timeline. An HD timeline with down conversion to DVD is going to take much longer rendering. So it comes down to speed vs quality. My 60p experiment above leads me to believe the TM900 in 1080 60p mode will produce a higher quality DVD and HD output but at the cost of longer rendering.

[ingeborgdot]

I do care about time but I do want quality. So, compromise is what I will do. An hour or so more for render time is what I will have to put up with. Will the FX7 not give me a faster render time with the hd format that it has compared to the AVCHD format?

[edDV]

I do care about time but I do want quality. So, compromise is what I will do. An hour or so more for render time is what I will have to put up with. Will the FX7 not give me a faster render time with the hd format that it has compared to the AVCHD format?

Yes 1440x1080 60i HDV will render about twice as fast as 1920x1080 60p AVCHD, maybe faster.

If you capture 720x480 60i off the FX7, a DV timeline to 480 60i DVD will render very fast, perhaps 8x-10x faster than 1080 60p.

[ingeborgdot]

Okay, they said they could go the the max of 1800 bucks. Would a good used hdr-fx1 be better than a new fx7? I have seen some nice used fx1s on ebay from what seems to be reputable dealers. What would your take be on this. 1800 is the max though, no exceptions. I have pretty much decided to go with the standard HD and not an AVCHD camera.

[MJA]

pull the trigger and get it over with

[ingeborgdot]

I know, I just have to decide if the FX7 is my best option or not?

[edDV]

I know, I just have to decide if the FX7 is my best option or not?

Checked eBay, looks like a good used FX1 sells for about the same as a new FX7. Be careful, these can be up to 6 years old and are very expensive to repair. I prefer to shop locally (e.g. Craigslist) so I can check it out fully before payment or have a return guarantee. You are taking a risk on used.

The main differences vs the FX7 are the sensors and lens. Get the large battery.

[ingeborgdot]

Yeah, I will go for the new FX7. No option to shop locally here. Live in a small rural area in a remote part of western KS.

[ingeborgdot]

I have not jumped on the FX7 yet but if I do what brand tapes do you recommend?

[edDV]

I have not jumped on the FX7 yet but if I do what brand tapes do you recommend?

Some say it is best to stick with one manufacturer for chemical lubricant purity.

I use HDV tape for major projects but the PQ Pro MiniDV tape seems to work just as well for HDV.

Sony HDV tape
$ 7.99/hr http://www.tapestockonline.com/mini-dv-hd.html

Panasonic HDV tape
$ 6.45/hr http://www.tapestockonline.com/pa63miamqus.html

Panasonic PQ Pro MiniDV
$ 2.15/hr http://www.tapestockonline.com/pa63mipqus.html

[ingeborgdot]

Do I need a memory stick pro duo? What purpose does it serve? Will I be able to use it for video?

[edDV]

Do I need a memory stick pro duo? What purpose does it serve? Will I be able to use it for video?

Memory stick is for stills. Not very useful.

[TreeTops]

Memory stick will do vids also on sony cameras that have that feature.

[edDV]

Memory stick will do vids also on sony cameras that have that feature.

Not full quality vids. Just low res.

[ingeborgdot]

On this tape what is the 63/42 mean? I mean why 2 numbers?
Panasonic AYDVM63PQ 63/42

[edDV]

On this tape what is the 63/42 mean? I mean why 2 numbers?
Panasonic AYDVM63PQ 63/42

DV = 63 minutes
DVCAM = 42 minutes

DVCAM spec recorded wider tracks in theory to allow better interchange with various decks.

In practice, DVCAM wasn't necessary except for critical jungle work.

[ingeborgdot]

Well, I ain't working in no jungle

[edDV]

Well, I ain't working in no jungle

DVCAM was a result of an ancient Sony vs Panasonic DVCPro war for TV news business. In the end DV was good enough. Just avoid DV LP.

BTW: Panasonic won that war with DVCPro which used MP tape vs DVCAM EP tape.
OK too much information.

Just use PQ in your Sony.

[ingeborgdot]

When we video it took us 57 of the 62 minutes or so that were on the tape. They do adds etc. so it takes up a lot of space. Are there any 80 minute tapes that work well?

[edDV]

When we video it took us 57 of the 62 minutes or so that were on the tape. They do adds etc. so it takes up a lot of space. Are there any 80 minute tapes that work well?

There are longer tapes but they use thinner backing and are less tough. I would use them short term if needed but don't trust them for archive. Where possible use 62 min tapes.

[ingeborgdot]

Well, I have an FX7 coming. Would you be so kind as to give me some advice. I know I will have to read and learn but advice from the gurus will only make it that much easier to understand.
When videoing, are there any settings that are a must. Action filming of football and basketball will be the things it will be used for. I will be mainly burning to DVD during the season for quick render in the evening and quick turnaround as I will start at the earliest in the eve around 10 and must be done by 6am., but this should still give me pretty good quality compared to an SD cam, right?. I will want to burn one to bluray for the one game film each week if that will be possible. At the end of the season when I make the highlight film I want to give people a choice between bluray or DVD when they get them. How will I accomplish this? What say you for some advice king of edit.