HD cam under $800

[ingeborgdot]

So, in other words it would not be a process that would be beneficial to getting done in a short period of time. Get home at ten after the game, capture game into computer. Do some editing of game, render, go to DVD Arch., put in menu, burn to DVD and usually get done by 3 am. or a little later. It would take me a lot longer than that I suppose doing the other steps involved int the process. There you go again, edDV, shooting me down again.

[ingeborgdot]

So, if I did not use AVIsynth what would happen? Would the quality still be better than a standard DVD? Would rendering times be slow? Not ever using anything but SD is my biggest concern right now. I would like the quality of HD though.
Is there a camera out there that has as good of low light sensors as the canon g10? What is the HV40 like for low light? My main concern is video quality and not sound. When it comes to the highlight video at the end of the year I usually dub in music anyway so sound really does not matter.

[edDV]

So, in other words it would not be a process that would be beneficial to getting done in a short period of time. Get home at ten after the game, capture game into computer. Do some editing of game, render, go to DVD Arch., put in menu, burn to DVD and usually get done by 3 am. or a little later. It would take me a lot longer than that I suppose doing the other steps involved int the process. There you go again, edDV, shooting me down again.

It comes down to your quality threshold and whether you want an HD encode..

If you record 1080 60p or 60i and use a 60p or 60i timeline, you normally want to encode a 1080 edit master. Then you would encode a downsized 480i DVD MPeg2 version. That is a two step encode.

If you don't intend to save an HD edit master, you can just do the downsized 480i DVD MPeg2 encode in Vegas.

Alternately for better quality you could frame serve 1080 60i or 1080 60p to AVISynth, set up a script to downsize and encode to 480i DVD MPeg2 there. The encode time would be approximately similar to doing it in Vegas. You just need to think through your work flow needs.

[ingeborgdot]

What would you do if you wanted good quality but needed to get it done quickly?

[edDV]

So, if I did not use AVIsynth what would happen? Would the quality still be better than a standard DVD? Would rendering times be slow? Not ever using anything but SD is my biggest concern right now. I would like the quality of HD though.

The conversion of 1080 60i or 60p to 480i in Vegas will be lossy during motion. Shooting 1080 60p should get better results but I've not tested it with 1080 60p AVCHD source. For 1080 60i the first step in Vegas is a blend or interpolated deinterlace to 1080 30p. This causes motion artifacts. Then Vegas downsizes to 480p and then interlaces to 480i MPeg2 for DVD. The result has motion at a 30 fps rate.

If instead you shoot 480i, your 480i DVD result will have motion at a 60 field per second rate (i.e smoother with less artifacts). The AVISynth 1080i/p->480i process will also result in a 60 field per second motion DVD result.

Is there a camera out there that has as good of low light sensors as the canon g10? What is the HV40 like for low light? My main concern is video quality and not sound. When it comes to the highlight video at the end of the year I usually dub in music anyway so sound really does not matter.

The g10 will be better for low light than the HV40. It benefits from the new signal processing. Better low light performance means less noise and better digital processing. If you are shooting night games, the g10 has advantage.

Sound issues are mostly about getting external mics to work correctly. For that you need the external mic jack, headphone jack, meters and ideally manual level controls.

[edDV]

What would you do if you wanted good quality but needed to get it done quickly?

For HD I'd get the G10, run it 60p and hope the Vegas DVD result is adequate. If not it can be improved by frame serving to AVJSynth. Downside is HD to DVD is going to take longer to process/encode. To speed things up, you should invest in that i7 CPU. You may also need to upgrade Vegas Pro to v10 or hold out for v11.

The HDV alternative allows you to capture 16:9 480i from the camcorder and edit/encode 480i. The IEEE-1394 capture process is realtime (1 hour takes 1 hour to capture) but 480i processing/encoding will be faster.

Correction: Just noticed the G10 doesn't have a 60p mode so that may throw the balance back to the Panasonic TM900.

[edDV]

New gunslinger in town, the Sony HDR_CX700V that does 60p but doesn't cut it for noise or low light.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-CX700V-Camcorder-Review.htm
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/748433-REG/Sony_HDR_CX700V_HDR_CX700V_HD_Flash_Memory.html

Back to the Panasonic TM900

Keep in mind I'm calling it for the TM900 on the theory that 1080 60p will convert better to 480 60i DVD in Vegas. That is your prime objective.

For pure HD work, I'd prefer the Canon G10 because of low light performance.

[ingeborgdot]

Would the Sony HVR-HD1000 Professional HDV Camcorder be a better camera than the HV40? If not, I wonder if there is one like the 1000 that has a bigger sensor.

I am almost stuck right now at what to get.

Is there anyway I would not have to use AVIsynth as it will just not work fast enough for my time constraints if I use AVCHD?

You have a way of making me feel so stupid. Actually I am just jealous because of how knowledgeable you are about this stuff. I hate bugging people so much but I guess this is part of the education process. Having smart people educate us dummies.

[ingeborgdot]

So you think the TM900 would be the best way to go. Have you used the HV40 in any lower light situations? Now remember it won't be dark, it will be dark outside but lights on the field give off a decent light but still not bright.
Can you tell I just want it as easy and fast as possible. I also just want a good high quality video to use for the highlights at the end of the year. I am sooooo confused my head hurts.

[edDV]

Would the Sony HVR-HD1000 Professional HDV Camcorder be a better camera than the HV40? If not, I wonder if there is one like the 1000 that has a bigger sensor.

I have a Sony HVR-Z1U (3CCD prosumer) and a Canon HV20. The Z1U is better in low light but the HV20 does OK in good light like you describe. If you turn the camera to the crowd you will see a big difference.

The current equivalent to the Z1U is the HVR-V1U or the HDR-FX7 (less audio features but enough). both use 3x CMOS sensors (Better than HVR HD-1000 single CMOS)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/459129-REG/Sony_HDRFX7_HDR_FX7_3CMOS_HDV_1080i.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461818-REG/Sony_HVRV1U_HVR_V1U_HDV_Camcorder.html

Is there anyway I would not have to use AVIsynth as it will just not work fast enough for my time constraints if I use AVCHD?

The AVISynth process would work better for 1080 60i vs Vegas. If you shoot 60p, Vegas may be good enough for 1080 60p to 480 60i DVD conversion.

[edDV]

So you think the TM900 would be the best way to go. Have you used the HV40 in any lower light situations? Now remember it won't be dark, it will be dark outside but lights on the field give off a decent light but still not bright.
Can you tell I just want it as easy and fast as possible. I also just want a good high quality video to use for the highlights at the end of the year. I am sooooo confused my head hurts.

Lets put it this way, if you primarily want a fast SD DVD workflow, but with an HD camera master, then a prosumer HDV cam like the FX7 or similar used model would allow in camera down conversion for a 16:9 480i DV capture. Then you could fast edit and encode a 480i DVD. The camera tape will be 1440x1080 60i HDV. The HV40 can do the same thing but with reduced camera performance and 1/3 the price.

The TM900 in 60p mode would allow a 1080 60p edit with conversion at the end to 480i DVD. Speed of processing depends on CPU speed.

Two ways to a similar result. Can't say if the DVD quality would be better either way without testing.

[ingeborgdot]

Right now I can do a 60 minute render of SD in 40 minutes. Quad core 6600 right now. Are there some used ones on B&H that you would recommend?

[edDV]

Right now I can do a 60 minute render of SD in 40 minutes. Quad core 6600 right now. Are there some used ones on B&H that you would recommend?

With an i7, that would drop to 20-30min.

Sony semi pro HDV camcorders had this history. Used camcorder buying is tricky. Best to shop locally with Craigslist and check it out thoroughly before purchase. Most of these camcorders have hours of use meters.

HDR-FX1 3x1/3" CCD (pro version Z1U)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Sony+HDR-Fx1&_s...All-Categories

HDR-FX1000 3x1/3" CMOS
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=sony+hdr-fx1000&_sacat=0&_odkw=Sony+HDR-Fx&_osacat=0&....c0.m270.l1311

HDR-FX7 3x1/4" CMOS (pro version V1U)
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=sony+hdr-fx7&_sacat=0&_odkw=sony+hdr-fx1000&_osacat=0....c0.m270.l1313

[ingeborgdot]

Yeah, I will be building the i7 in a couple of months. Just waiting for the right size SSD to go on sale that I want.

[edDV]

Yeah, I will be building the i7 in a couple of months. Just waiting for the right size SSD to go on sale that I want.

Don't want to break a bubble but SSD will have no effect on render speed. Toss that money to the camcorder or the CPU or a Vegas Pro 10/11 upgrade.

[ingeborgdot]

I don't know what to do now. The canon G10 seems to be the best fit for lighting but no 60p. The panny900 is good for this but AVCHD. The SonyHVR-HD 1000 has too small of a sensor. The Canon HV40 also has smaller sensor. What would work best for light is not best for rendering and time constraints. In order to get the best of both I would need to spend how much?

[ingeborgdot]

Yeah, I will be building the i7 in a couple of months. Just waiting for the right size SSD to go on sale that I want.

Don't want to break a bubble but SSD will have no effect on render speed. Toss that money to the camcorder or the CPU or a Vegas Pro 10/11 upgrade.

No, I know that. I just will like the quicker loading times on startup so I don't have to wait 5 minutes of more before I can use it fully.

[ingeborgdot]

How will the Vegas pro upgrade help? I am going to get the fastest i7 they have and oc it a little bit.

[edDV]

How will the Vegas pro upgrade help? I am going to get the fastest i7 they have and oc it a little bit.

Vegas Pro 10/11 will help for AVCHD but v9 is fine for HDV/DV.

Expect Vegas Pro v11 to be optimized for AVCHD 2.0 including 1920x1080 60P support.

[ingeborgdot]

So, I could end up getting the Panny 900 with AVCHD and it would work fine? Or some other more expensive AVCHD cam?

[edDV]

So, I could end up getting the Panny 900 with AVCHD and it would work fine? Or some other more expensive AVCHD cam?

I don't have a TM900 to test a 60p to DVD 60i convert. Maybe someone else can try that in Vegas Pro or Premiere Pro (both use Mainconcept codec but could vary in downsize method).

If you go the AVCHD route, you should keep up with Vegas upgrades.

More expensive AVCHD cams (NXCAM or AVCCAM) will have more features but the same consumer codec. Most are not yet AVCHD v2.0 ready. That means 1080 60p not yet supported.

[ingeborgdot]

So, then I would be better off going the other route and not going with and SD card camcorders and going with mini dv style like th HV40 but only better quality. I am so messed up, what would you recommend after the HV40? I think you may have told me earlier but I have breathed since then and my mind is scrambled. I have no problem going with a mini dv camcorder.

[edDV]

So, then I would be better off going the other route and not going with and SD card camcorders and going with mini dv style like th HV40 but only better quality. I am so messed up, what would you recommend after the HV40? I think you may have told me earlier but I have breathed since then and my mind is scrambled. I have no problem going with a mini dv camcorder.

You are at a fork in the road.

1. Tried and true HDV with SD or HD workflow (that new FX7 or HV40 from B&P if you don't want to hassle used). You can skip the computer and Vegas upgrade. You are fine for DV/HDV.

2. Join the AVCHD v2.0 cutting edge with the TM900** (i7 CPU and Vegas Pro 11 recommended*).

You need to make a decision.


* v9 Vegas will get you started.

** the TM900 is not AVCHD v2.0 certified. Since Vegas is now owned by Sony, they may stiff Panasonic on this point. They are like cats and dogs.

[ingeborgdot]

If I would go for the FX7 what could I expect? I will have to order online. I see a place that has a good price and good reviews and under 1700 for a new one. How does it work compared to the HV40?

[edDV]

Be careful to check the user ratings for an online retailer. If the new price gets too distant from B&H get more data.

Read the reviews and make sure you understand the pros and cons of the product.

Sony markets two versions of their prosumer camcorders. The main difference is the audio support. The FX series is sold online and in Sony retailers. It has a simple omnidirectional stereo mic and an external stereo mini jack for an external microphone system. The pro version (HDR-V1U) is sold through pro retailers and has a shotgun mic, individual audio channel level controls and balanced XLR pro mic jacks.

The FX7 came out around 2007 at a $3500 price but is still available. It is a solid workhorse. These reviews seem fair. Look at others. The Canon XH-A1 and HDR-V1U still sell for around $2800. The FX7 has dropped to around $1999.
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/sony-handycam-hdr-fx7/4505-6500_7-32065017-...ml?tag=rvwBody
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-FX7-Camcorder-Review.htm

[2Bdecided]

I wonder if it's possible to borrow one or the other. You really won't know how well they work in your situation until you try it.

You can download raw videos from any camcorder on-line and try them in your NLE to find out how quickly (and well) then can be edited to SD.


Just a thought: (H)DV transfers in real time - how much faster/slower are the 28MBps 1080p60 files? I'd assume at least 4x faster (never tried it myself, but it's just a HDD>HDD or SD>HDD copy). I don't know how much footage you shoot and ingest, and whether you absolute want to watch it all while copying in real time anyway.

Cheers,
David.

[ingeborgdot]

I wonder if it's possible to borrow one or the other. You really won't know how well they work in your situation until you try it.

You can download raw videos from any camcorder on-line and try them in your NLE to find out how quickly (and well) then can be edited to SD.


Just a thought: (H)DV transfers in real time - how much faster/slower are the 28MBps 1080p60 files? I'd assume at least 4x faster (never tried it myself, but it's just a HDD>HDD or SD>HDD copy). I don't know how much footage you shoot and ingest, and whether you absolute want to watch it all while copying in real time anyway.

Cheers,
David.

How could I get some raw videos and where? Thanks.

[ingeborgdot]

Video is usually between 55-70 minutes.

[Atak_Snajpera]

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HF-M40-Camcorder-Review.htm

[2Bdecided]

How could I get some raw videos and where? Thanks.

Sometimes reviewers post some. Sometimes just googling the camcorder model and raw footage will work.

Some people upload raw video to vimeo, especially when the camcorder is first released - if you register you can download the raw video at the bottom right of the screen if it was uploaded during the last week. After that the raw version gets removed (unless the uploader was a premium user).

So search vimeo for the model number of the camcorder.

Cheers,
David.