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  1. Member
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    In another thread, I started, I asked about the longevity of a television set, although people don't trust a TV salesperson they basically agreed with him that today's TVs are not designed to last 17 years like my CRT television did. So what about the search protector can I buy a search protector and expected to last through the life of more than one television I plug into it?

  2. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Surge protectors are worthless.

    Instead, get an APC UPS: http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&x=0&ref_=nb_sb_noss&y=0&field-keywords=APC%20UPS&url=s...reative=390957
    The more you spend, the better.
    Prices range from $40 to $200 on these.

    Consider it "TV insurance". (Get one for the computers, too.)
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    Are you talking about a surge protector? Yes, you need one.

    EDIT (after seeing lordsmurf's remark): I wouldn't characterize them a "worthless;" not anywhere near as good as an APC UPS, but better than nothin'.

  4. Assuming you mean surge protector, here is a link to a complete overview of how they work:

    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/surge-protector.htm

    Almost by definition, a surge protector will probably fail before the device it's protecting IF it is a high-quality unit.

    A surge protector often uses components that will absorb the spikes and surges of everyday electical grids, but will "sacrifice" itself a little (or a lot) each time to do so, ultimately having no more "sacrifice" to offer. That's why most articles about surge protectors will suggest units with an indicator that tells you whether or not the unit is still offering protection. Many, when they've completely "sacrificed" themselves, simply become multi-outlet extension cords.

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    I agree with lordsmurf that a UPS is the way to go. It will protect the TV from brown-outs (drops in voltage) and voltage drop-outs, which are far more common that surges (or really, voltage spikes). However, I would still use a surge protector power strip on the output of the UPS just to be sure.

    Anyway, most power supplies today have a built in surge protector (a Transorb across the mains).


    And I, too, was wondering WTF is a "search protector"!
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  6. Surge protectors wear out. Be sure to get one that has warning lights to let you know if it is no longer protecting you.

    Just as important, get one that will tell you if there is a wiring fault which would also leave you unprotected.

    Problems that could leave you unprotected would be things like reversed hot and common, open ground. Put it another way, in the outlet are three wires that all need to be connected properly. Black, White and ground.

    I had a customer that was killing a computer power supply a month, I suggested testing the outlet, he came back and said it was faulty and he'd had a electrician in to rewire it.

    If using a cheap $5 or $10 surge protector replace at least once a year.

    The better ones such as APC can come with insurance that will repair or replace your electronics if they let them get damaged. Well worth the $20 to $30 they cost.
    If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

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    Originally Posted by TBoneit View Post
    Surge protectors wear out. Be sure to get one that has warning lights to let you know if it is no longer protecting you.

    Just as important, get one that will tell you if there is a wiring fault which would also leave you unprotected.

    Problems that could leave you unprotected would be things like reversed hot and common, open ground. Put it another way, in the outlet are three wires that all need to be connected properly. Black, White and ground.

    I had a customer that was killing a computer power supply a month, I suggested testing the outlet, he came back and said it was faulty and he'd had a electrician in to rewire it.

    If using a cheap $5 or $10 surge protector replace at least once a year.

    The better ones such as APC can come with insurance that will repair or replace your electronics if they let them get damaged. Well worth the $20 to $30 they cost.
    TBoneit -is all the features you suggest for a search protector available for UPS?

    Also do you or anybody know if always on battery UPS is available in low capacity, low expense once? I don't think I should be worried about UPS capacity as I will not die should I miss the last half of the television episode because my UPS has lost its battery capacity. I am also interested in does UPS die gracefully when the batteries which are keeping them up exhaust themselves. What I mean by that is what happens to the equipment attached to a UPS it itself goes down for lack of battery power will be UPS itself cause equipment problems?

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    Mark, SURGE protector! A "search" protector is a program you install on your computer to keep you from going to naughty websites.

    There's no way to for a UPS to die gracefully. Either you have enough power to run or you don't. Once the power goes out you should start shutting things down.

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    Originally Posted by byteguy View Post
    There's no way to for a UPS to die gracefully. Either you have enough power to run or you don't. Once the power goes out you should start shutting things down.
    Well is the implications of what you are saying mean a UPS should not be connected to a television when it is off? Also our most low capacity, low-cost UPS, no better at protecting from surges that a search protector? I mean if you're not constantly floating on battery but just using a fast acting switch to bring in the power back up to protect your from dips is the only benefit of using UPS that changes in power levels like dips from the power company can also lower the life of your television?

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    Once the power goes off, the UPS will start beeping or screaming at you. The idea is that you have a minute or two to save your game, eject your disk, or just quietly turn everything off instead of it all going *blip*. It will protect you from the 1 or 2 second power drops that are annoying and bad.

    But, you won't get a lot of time (especially if you have a tv, tuner, speakers, dvd, game system...) unless you spend a LOT of money and have a lot of batteries between you and the wall outlet. A lightning strike is going to go through most anything you buy. An old job of mine had UPS units, poles nearby got hit, we had to buy all new computers. But, when we lost power... we had time to shut down instead of just losing everything.

  11. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Marc,
    These are the levels of "protection" of the various electrical devices from lowest to highest:
    1. Power Strip - No protection at all
    2. PS with spike protection - has "clipping" circuit so transient spikes don't pass through
    3. PS with spike & surge protection - has voltage regulator + clipping circuit so neither spikes nor slower voltage surges get through - keeps it steady.
    4. PS with spike & 2-way surge protection - voltage reg prevents both surges and dips (brown-outs)
    5. UPS - Uninterruptible because battery provides backup power (for a short time) when real AC goes out (nearly always includes previous levels)
    6. UPS w/ 2 or more hot-swappable batteries - can provide long periods of uninterupted backup power.
    7. Power Conditioner + UPS - "Cleans" the timing & harmonics of the power signal (like a TBC) to provide low noise/EMI/RFI and has multi-stage regulators for EXACTLY the voltage you need (plus all the other stuff)

    Low cost, low capacity UPSes cut corners by not having long battery life or not being able to handle enough load, as well as giving little warning. They can be a pest, but only if your source MAINS is that bad to begin with. UPSes, btw, should NOT be used to keep things running (unless it's some military operation, etc) - that's what Emergency Power Generators are for. UPSes are to allow you to have enough time to GRACEFULLY or NORMALLY power your devices down. Assuming you get GOOD PS devices (that don't prematurely quit on you without warning), they all provide a greater and greater level of longevity consistent performance to your regular devices (TV and such).

    I do, however, think that ALL of them are better than search protectors.

    Scott

  12. Look for a SURGE SUPPRESOR that has three line protection.

  13. Originally Posted by MarcMiller View Post
    Also our most low capacity, low-cost UPS, no better at protecting from surges that a search protector? I mean if you're not constantly floating on battery but just using a fast acting switch to bring in the power back up to protect your from dips is the only benefit of using UPS that changes in power levels like dips from the power company can also lower the life of your television?
    So many urban myths are posted that I hardly know where to begin.


    For example, life expectancy of a UPS battery is three years. These things do degrade so that it has less and less power every year.

    Output from a UPS in battery backup mode is so ‘dirty’ as to potentially harm small electric motors and power strip protectors. Where is that ‘clean’ power? Not in manufacturer specs. Only found in hearsay from those who never demand numbers. For example, this 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. BTW, that manufacturer calls it a sine wave output. Using high school math, they are not lying. Square waves and spikes are a sum of pure sine waves. Called a sine wave because the claim was subject – no numbers.

    Why is ‘dirty’ power from a UPS not harmful to the TV. Because all electronics are so more robust. Same power that might harm a strip protector or small motor is also ‘ideal’ power to all electronics. Due to superior protection circuits that have long existed inside electronics.

    Did anyone post UPS numbers that claim protection? Of course not. Read those numbers. Hundreds of joules. Near zero joules. Just enough above zero that sales brochures can hype 100% protection. Another myth promoted by a majority who never demand spec numbers.

    When is UPS power ‘cleanest’? When a UPS connects that TV directly to AC mains. You asked about a ‘fast acting switch’. Let’s include numbers. Its relay takes milliseconds to disconnect from AC mains. Destructive transients are done in microseconds. Hundreds of consecutive surges can pass through a UPS and TV before the UPS would switch. Numbers that others forget to demand before making recommendations.

    Same damning questions should be asked of a poster who recommended a power conditioner. Where are his numbers? Many power conditioners are nothing more than power strip protectors inside a fancier box. Selling for $hundreds. Profit centers that ‘forget’ to claim protection in numeric specifications.

    What is inside a power strip protector? Take a $4 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. It sells for $7 in the supermarket. Or sells for $40 or $150 elsewhere due to its fancy box and overhyped name. A profit center, called a surge protector, does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. If in doubt, then post manufacturer spec numbers. Not a rhetorical question. A request for numbers that should always exists before making any recommendation.

    Another poster cited HowStuffWorks (subjective hearsay) as fact. Then said:
    A surge protector often uses components that will absorb the spikes and surges of everyday electrical grids
    Let’s put numbers to that claim. A protector, rated for hundreds of joules, will absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? How? It doesn’t. Any protector that would absorb surges is a myth. Hundreds of joules is noise. A transient made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance – even the bathroom GFCI.

    What happens when a trivial thousands joules surge occurs? That grossly undersized protector disconnects protector circuits as fast as possible (as indicated by its light). Leaves that surge connected to adjacent appliances. No problem. Superior protection, already inside appliances, makes that surge irrelevant.

    Observation without first learning the underlying science is called junk science. Since a grossly undersized protector failed, observation proves it did protection. Reality – the appliance protected itself. Observation combined with well proven science and manufacturer spec numbers results in a completely different conclusion.

    Any protector that *sacrifices* itself does no protection. But sometimes a grossly undersized protector does not disconnect fast enough. Fire may occur. View these scary pictures:
    http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
    http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
    http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
    http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
    http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
    http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

    Informed consumers earth one ‘whole house’ protector. Install a type of protector that is found anyplace that surge damage cannot happen. To make even lightning irrelevant. That costs tens or 100 times less money. That comes from more responsible companies including Square D, General Electric, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, Keison, or ABB. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. A solution proven by over 100 years of experience. Even direct lightning strike cause no damage … even to the protector.

    Only the last few myths are addressed. Plenty more exist. Effective solutions, found anywhere that surge damage cannot happen, is single point earth ground and a ‘whole house’ protector. So that a protector remains functional many decades later – the original question. Even after a direct lightning strike.

    So where are the numbers? A typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. So a minimally sized ‘whole house’ protector starts at 50,000 amps.

    Responsible facilities use ‘whole house’ protectors connected as short as possible (ie ‘less than 10 feet’) to single point earth ground. More numbers. To increase protection, telcos locate that protector up to 50 meters (150 feet) from electronics. Separation between protector and electronics increases protection. Over 100 years of well proven science is not found in knowledge obtained from sales brochures or that embarrassing HowStuffWorks article.

    Effective solutions always discuss where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Grossly undersized ‘profit centers’ fail quickly to promote urban myths. Properly sized and earthed protectors should remain functional for decades.

  14. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    "Superior protection already inside modern electronics"? Quite the reverse.

    Instead of dispelling myths, you're adding more FUD. Read a little bit from Furman Sound...

    Scott

  15. Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Instead of dispelling myths, you're adding more FUD. Read a little bit from
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Furman. A company that can sell a $7 protector circuit inside a fancy box for $hundreds. If Furman made numeric claims, then Cornucopia posted each number. He cannot post what does not exist. He hopes we will zone out rather than wade through reams of Furman FUD. Well I waded. Nothing in those Furman pages says anything relevant.

    Industry standard numbers for electronics define existing protection. For example, an Ethernet port must withstand up to 2000 volts without damage.

    Fifty years ago, design standards for 120 volt computer equipment required up to 600 volt transients without damage. Today's ATX standards from Intel, et al require thousands of volts without damage. How can that be if electronics do not contain protection? Industry standards define that protection with numbers. Hearsay or an irrelevant citation from Furman proves otherwise?

    View this datasheet for an interface semiconductor that meets international design standards such as IEC 61000-4-2:
    http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/MAX1487E-MAX491E.pdf

    Why does that datasheet state 15,000 volt transient protection on its first page? Because electronics now withstand 2000 or 15,000 volt transients - despite empty accusations that says otherwise.

    IEC61000 is one of many standards. It says why a grossly undersized protector is destroyed by transients (noise) too tiny to harm adjacent electronics. Only grossly undersized protectors with obscene profit margins and misleading sales brochures require constant replacement. Listed were more responsible companies that provide superior solutions. Furman was not listed.

    Informed consumers worry about a rare surge (typically once every seven years) that can overwhelm appliance internal protection. Informed consumers spend about $1 per appliance so that even direct lightning strikes do not harm appliances. So that a protector remains functional decades later.

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    @westom You are forgetting something. Not everyone is a homeowner, and not all landlords are going to agree to tenants making changes to the wiring in their building. So what do you suggest when installing whole-house surge protection is not an option?

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    westom - Dude, you are wrong on so many levels...

    And, for the record, we are NOT talking about ESD protection here - which your stated MAXIM device is "highly protected" from. ESD is just static electricity. We were also NOT talking about protecting against direct lightning strikes.

    Also, no one here suggested a "square wave" UPS. lordsmurf recommended an APC UPS, which, IIRC are all PWM sine wave units (I haven't even seen a square wave UPS in years).

    And WTF is IEC6100-4-2? Oh. do you mean IEC1000-4-2? I would have thought that an expert in the field like yourself would have caught this error.

    You have been here all of two plus months and are now showering us with your "expertise". Let me tell you that the real expertise of most of those who have posted in this thread literally dwarfs yours.

    I would suggest that you just sit back and try to learn about the knowledge you claim to possess, before everyone thinks that you are the blithering idiot that is on full display today.

    Mark Twain once said, "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." In your case, I believe that you've let the cat out of the bag.
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  18. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Not everyone is a homeowner, and not all landlords are going to agree to tenants making changes to the wiring in their building.
    This solution is available even to renters. For example, some landlords are happy to have a tenant provide a 'whole house' protector that the landlord installs. So that the landlord's appliances (refrigerator, stove, GFCIs) are protected for decades.

    Or a tenant has the electric company install a 'whole house' protector behind their meter. A task so simple that the girl who reads that meter will probably install it. A landlord has no say about that option. A tenant has other options. Protectors that actually do protection should also be properly sized to remain funtional for decades.

    That is protection for AC mains. The most common source of destructive surges. Other incoming utilities (cable TV, telephone) already have protection installed as required by code and Federal regulations.
    Last edited by westom; 17th Aug 2011 at 08:46.

  19. Originally Posted by westom View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Not everyone is a homeowner, and not all landlords are going to agree to tenants making changes to the wiring in their building.
    This solution is available even to renters. For example, some landlords are happy to have a tenant provide a 'whole house' protector that the landlord installs. So that the landlord's appliances (refrigerator, stove, GFCIs) are protected for decades.

    Or a tenant has the electric company install a 'whole house' protector behind their meter. A task so simple that the girl who reads that meter will probably install it. A landlord has no say about that option. A tenant has other options. Protectors that actually do protection should also be properly sized to remain funtional for decades.

    That is protection for AC mains. The most common source of destructive surges. Other incoming utilities (cable TV, telephone) already have protection installed as required by code and Federal regulations.
    A landlord has a say with regard to tinkering with the electric in the building.

    Anyone that would modify the electric at a tenants request without written landlord permission is looking to get sued.

    Most tenants have a separate meter and box for their unit.

    If the other utilities have such good surge protection how is it that we did a good business for years replacing modems fried during thunderstorms. High speed internet killed that business off.
    Last edited by TBoneit; 17th Aug 2011 at 10:52.
    If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

  20. Originally Posted by MarcMiller View Post
    Originally Posted by TBoneit View Post
    Surge protectors wear out. Be sure to get one that has warning lights to let you know if it is no longer protecting you.

    Just as important, get one that will tell you if there is a wiring fault which would also leave you unprotected.

    Problems that could leave you unprotected would be things like reversed hot and common, open ground. Put it another way, in the outlet are three wires that all need to be connected properly. Black, White and ground.

    I had a customer that was killing a computer power supply a month, I suggested testing the outlet, he came back and said it was faulty and he'd had a electrician in to rewire it.

    If using a cheap $5 or $10 surge protector replace at least once a year.

    The better ones such as APC can come with insurance that will repair or replace your electronics if they let them get damaged. Well worth the $20 to $30 they cost.
    TBoneit -is all the features you suggest for a search protector available for UPS?

    Also do you or anybody know if always on battery UPS is available in low capacity, low expense once? I don't think I should be worried about UPS capacity as I will not die should I miss the last half of the television episode because my UPS has lost its battery capacity. I am also interested in does UPS die gracefully when the batteries which are keeping them up exhaust themselves. What I mean by that is what happens to the equipment attached to a UPS it itself goes down for lack of battery power will be UPS itself cause equipment problems?
    I'm getting ready to replace a old APC UPS or replace the battery at a minimum.

    I did not get a UPS to use as a surge protector. I got it to keep momentary voltage drops and outages from affecting my electronics. The Surge protection and Insurance is a added benefit. I use the UPS to keep my Satellite boxes up and running since they take time to recover from a brief blip in the electric. As a side benefit Mine (Knock wood) are reliable, Unlike some posts from people in areas that have bad power where the boxes are always going defective.

    If your remote can turn on a device then that device is never totally off. In the 80's I used a device that kept the output voltage steady over a wide range of input voltages. That helped keep my old IBM XT Clone running with no problems. If you truly do not want the benefits of a UPS then look at the better APC surge protectors.
    If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

  21. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Regarding UPS longevity (the batterY), it's right around 5 years. Replace your batteries with an aftermarket Zeus. Batteries.com carry them quite cheaply.

    Again, and I cannot stress this enough: the more you spend, the better the UPS. The $40 units are good for maybe 5-10 minutes. The $75 units go quite a bit longer (20 minutes). The $200 units can last an hour or more with full load.

    Surges are not common. Loss of power and unstable voltage (+/-), however, most certainly are.

    Cyberpower isn't suggested. Buy APC.

    _____________

    @byteguy -- Sorry but much of what you're saying is wrong/misleading.

    Originally Posted by byteguy View Post
    Once the power goes off, the UPS will start beeping or screaming at you
    Login to the UPS via USB and turn it off. Problem solved. Carry a laptop to the TV, if you're using it for non-computer appliances.

    Originally Posted by byteguy View Post
    But, you won't get a lot of time (especially if you have a tv, tuner, speakers, dvd, game system...) unless
    A TV draws very little power. You could easily watch 30 minutes on a battery. A tornado touched down very close to me this spring, and power was gone. The TV was on, however, running off the battery for about an hour, giving me valuable updates on storm tracking.

    I know the longevity of my batteries, based on math. I understand the pull of the TV, the output of the UPS, and then I was conservative on use, so that I could still have time to properly shut it off. An egg timer helped. For computer users, the software (connected via USB) gives you a readout at all times.

    _____________

    @westom -- Sorry, but EVERYTHING you're saying is crap.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 18th Aug 2011 at 03:33.
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  22. Member
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    Originally Posted by westom View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Not everyone is a homeowner, and not all landlords are going to agree to tenants making changes to the wiring in their building.
    This solution is available even to renters. For example, some landlords are happy to have a tenant provide a 'whole house' protector that the landlord installs. So that the landlord's appliances (refrigerator, stove, GFCIs) are protected for decades.

    Or a tenant has the electric company install a 'whole house' protector behind their meter. A task so simple that the girl who reads that meter will probably install it. A landlord has no say about that option. A tenant has other options. Protectors that actually do protection should also be properly sized to remain funtional for decades.

    That is protection for AC mains. The most common source of destructive surges. Other incoming utilities (cable TV, telephone) already have protection installed as required by code and Federal regulations.
    It looks like you are in the business of selling and installing whole house surge protection and never go off the clock. No sale. They are too expensive, particularly when the cost of installation is added.

    I don't care about protecting the landlord's appliances for decades. I care about protecting my own belongings, and these devices are not something I can easily take with me when I move.

    [Edit]...and I also doubt that it is possible to have an electrical utility do this kind of installation without the permission of the property owner. For one thing they would have to have the permission of the property owner to gain access to the inside of the building where the meters are located.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 17th Aug 2011 at 11:18.

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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post

    @byteguy, Sorry but much of what you're saying is wrong/misleading.

    Originally Posted by byteguy View Post
    Once the power goes off, the UPS will start beeping or screaming at you
    Login to the UPS via USB and turn it off. Problem solved. Carry a laptop to the TV, if you're using it for non-computer appliances.
    Yes, you can turn off the audible alarm. How does that make what I said "wrong"? The point is that all the UPS that I've encountered over the years have an audible alarm. They're there to warn you that you have something running on batter that you should take care of.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by byteguy View Post
    But, you won't get a lot of time (especially if you have a tv, tuner, speakers, dvd, game system...) unless
    A TV draws very little power. You could easily watch 30 minutes on a battery. A tornado touched down very close to me this spring, and power was gone. The TV was on, however, running off the battery for about an hour, giving me valuable updates on storm tracking.
    .
    Yes, I agree, some TVs are very low draw and can run for a nice long time. They're a very good idea in an area where you need to stay connected when you lose power for safety (vs an area where you can just sit in the dark and not worry that Mother Nature is about to pull your roof off). But, it all depends on the TV. We don't know what the OP's draw is or what else he wants to attach to that circuit which is why I mentioned other items that he may want/have on the unit.

    Cnet has an nice comparison chart that shows the huge swing in power required. As low as 70 watts and as high as 575 watts.

  24. SLK001, you've caustically jumped all over westom about your perceptions of his lack of knowledge and expertise, emphasizing his "noob" status.

    Just as a reminder about "knowledge and expertise": On this link below, you stated unequivocally that WinXP Home and Pro could not exist in the same HD partition. Period. End of story.

    A couple of entries later, you in effect say, "Oops, never mind."

    So, being a member of these forums for a long time, since maybe 2001, for example, is no guarantee of "knowledge and expertise," just as a noob doesn't automatically lack them.

    What a noob or long-time forum member *writes* may certainly give insight, however., as we both seem to have noticed.

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/337975-Win-XP-Professional-In-Same-HD-Partition

  25. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by byteguy View Post
    They're there to warn you that you have something running on batter that you should take care of.
    Generally speaking, it'll be obvious when power is out. No lights, etc.

    Originally Posted by CobraPilot View Post
    caustically jumped all over westom
    Much of what westom has asserted is baloney.
    For example, the idea that a UPS has "dirty power." Absolute hogwash.

    I have quite a bit of experience in what is "clean" vs "dirty" when it comes to electricity, mostly due to interference pattern prevention/removal on video captures. What he says is completely backwards. If anything, incoming power to the home/office is horrible, and a good UPS is able to regulate it (cleaning it somewhat in the process).

    If you search Google for "UPS dirty power", you'll notice the only results are FUD (disinformation) for scumbag companies selling so-called "clean power" units. And most of that is garbage found on content mills (the so-called "article sites"), and not from any legitimate reference.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 18th Aug 2011 at 03:34.
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    Originally Posted by CobraPilot View Post
    SLK001, you've caustically jumped all over westom about your perceptions of his lack of knowledge and expertise, emphasizing his "noob" status.

    Just as a reminder about "knowledge and expertise": On this link below, you stated unequivocally that WinXP Home and Pro could not exist in the same HD partition. Period. End of story.

    A couple of entries later, you in effect say, "Oops, never mind."

    So, being a member of these forums for a long time, since maybe 2001, for example, is no guarantee of "knowledge and expertise," just as a noob doesn't automatically lack them.

    What a noob or long-time forum member *writes* may certainly give insight, however., as we both seem to have noticed.

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/337975-Win-XP-Professional-In-Same-HD-Partition
    Yeah, you're right - I did jump before I looked - my bad. But this case is really the exception to the rule, since Home is just a crippled version of Pro, thus they both use the same booting files. However, as you know, no other two OSs can exist in the same partition (not including Vista or Win7, since I'm not up to speed on these). WinXP and Win2000P - no. WinNT and WinXP - no. WinXP and Win98 - no. I could go on, but you get the picture.

    Just because someone makes a mistake doesn't necessarily make them a non-expert in the field. And you are right in that time on a forum is no indication of noob status.

    However, westom jumping in, stating his opinions as fact just rubbed me the wrong way (his "urban legends"). In the field of electronics, I am an expert - I have an MSEE and many, many years of experience. I have been recognized by the State of Florida as an expert witness in the field of electronics. His segway from powerline spikes to ESD events was a particularly irritating non-sequitor. Reading his rant made me think that this was some 15 year old sneaking time on his mommy's computer.
    ICBM target coordinates:
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  27. To SLK001, Lord Smurf, et al:

    The point to my posting was that being an "expert," whether actually school-trained or self-appointed (and there are a LOT of the latter), does not excuse boorish, vulgar behavior, nor acting like a wannabe Moderator.

    We're *all* ignorant, just on different topics!

    Or as Linus (of "Peanuts") once said, "We're never so stupid as when we're trying to act smart." (I suspect Peanuts creator Charles Schulz would have added "smarta**" if he were observing behavior on these forums. He didn't, so I certainly will!)

    Lighten up!

  28. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Much of what westom has asserted is bullshit.
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    For example, the idea that a UPS has "dirty power." Absolute hogwash.
    Then you have specification numbers to prove your subjective claims. Provided are numbers for a typical UPS that is also 'subjectively' called a sine wave output. 200 volt square wave with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. What does your oscilloscope show? Or do you just know without owning and using such equipment?

    To have "pure sine waves" (as others have only assumed) means a UPS approaching $1000 or more. If that APC has pure sine waves, then that poster included APC spec numbers such as %THD. Why does APC 'forget' to provide that %THD number? Learn why APC also quietly recommends no power strip protectors or small electric motors on their UPS outputs. That UPS output is that 'dirty'; that potentially harmful to less robust appliances such as strip protectors.

    If any protector or UPS does surge protection, then that post contains manufacturer specification numbers. So many make claims without numbers because so many are easily manipulated by advertising and sales brochures.

    For example, how do hundreds of joules in a UPS absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules. Near zero joules will magically make surges disappear? How does that 2 cm part inside a UPS or power strip stop what 3 miles of sky could not? It doesn't. Its life expectancy is also short.

    The most easily manipulated are why my father so enjoyed advertising. So many can be told how to think - subjectively. Then become nasty when reality provides honest numbers. Or when challenged to provide specifications. My father's complaint: the FTC was taking the fun out of it. The FTC wanted advertising to tell the truth. Why when so many want to believe only the first thing they are told?

    We would be reading posts contain APC specifications if others learned before posting. None provided for one simple reason. Even APC does not claim that protection. A UPS has only one function. To provide temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout.

    The OP asked about protector life expectancy. Well proven and effective solutions will earth even direct lightning strikes and remain functional for decades. Grossly undersized protectors with near zero joules, obscene profit margins, and plenty of advertising can fail even on a first surge. Those who are manipulated subjectively will recommend ineffective solutions that fail easily. They are why my father so enjoyed manipulating people with spin and advertising.

    Provided are solutions intended for decades of protection. The OP could be asking for important details once these nasty posters are properly corrected.

    SLK001 - if informed, then your post contains manufacturer spec numbers. Provided were well proven facts. OP should be learning important details from generations of experience. But your subjective accusations demonstrate why advertising so easily manipulates so many. Muddies the waters. An honest SLK001 would be posting engineering facts; not insults. Show me how your solution magically absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules? Show me how your 2 centimeter solution stops what three miles of sky could not? Instead of posting nasty, show me manufacturer spec numbers that claim protection.

  29. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by westom View Post
    Then you have specification numbers to prove your subjective claims. Provided are numbers for a typical UPS that is also 'subjectively' called a sine wave output. 200 volt square wave with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. What does your oscilloscope show?
    Blah, blah, blah.

    manipulating people with spin and advertising.
    What you're attempting to do is bamboozle people with pseudo-science and "jargon bombs". As far as I'm concerned, that's much worse than advertising. Pseudo-science is FUD, propaganda.

    I'm not fooled for one second.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 18th Aug 2011 at 03:34.
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  30. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Yeah, but did you notice how the TONE of this thread went from "helpful with a bit of dissention on finer points" to "automatic bashing & nay-saying" as soon as westom posted? This pulls the thread totally off-topic, and I don't like to see that happen, especially when it is accompanied by a BUTT-TON of bad attitude.

    BTW, OT, did you notice the PDF westom referred to specifically talks about P.S. devices for RS-232/458/422 "IN EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS ENVIRONMENTS"? Talk about wrong example...

    @Marc,
    I hope you got your questions answered thoroughly enough (without too much ribbing)...

    Scott




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