DVD+RW to DVD-RW

[rsatria]

I have home video of my children from 1983 which I have transferred from VHS tape to DVD+RW using a JVC DR-MV80A DVD Video Recorder. The transfer went fine. I now want to set up the menu so that we can jump to the different events (titles) on the dvd. I have found that using a +RW disc, I can only split the video on the recorder to set up new titles. Alternatively, I can keep only the original title and set up chapters for the other events.

I now understand that if I use a DVD-RW disc, I can set up multiple playlists in addition to the original title. I can do so by re-recording from my original VHS onto a DVD-RW disc. However, since my DVD+RW disc already has the vob files, I would simply like to copy those vob files to the DVD-RW disc.

I have tried to do this in multiple ways, including making .cdr and .dmg files (ISO equivalents as I understand it) on my mac and then burning it to the DVD-RW, copying only the vob files, changing the vob extension to mpg, using the programs Disc Utility, Burn, ffmpegX, iDVD, iMovie, and MacTheRipper. But in every case, I get the title from the DVD+RW disc and am NOT ABLE to set up any playlists on the DVD-RW disc. I suppose I could find a mac program that can handle vob files and then re-author and burn to a DVD-RW. But is there any way to simply copy the files to my mac from the DVD+RW and then copy them back to a new DVD-RW so that I can use the playlist features of the DVD-RW media? Thanks.

[jman98]

Welcome, but you need to understand something absolutely critical that you seem not to know. DVD+RW and DVD-RW discs were NEVER intended for long term storage. They are made out of material that changes over time. Even if you store a re-writable disc under the best of conditions, the phase change material (that is what makes them re-writable) will eventually degrade. Whether that happens in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years or more is uncertain. But it is absolutely certain that one day sooner than you seem to realize you will be completely unable to play your disc whether you burn it to DVD-RW or DVD+RW. If you care anything about watching these videos years from now you have got to use DVD-R or DVD+R. And I'd recommend either Taiyo Yuden (you'll have to buy online) or Verbatim (anything but their cheap "Life" series of discs).

Sorry, but the fact that you are using a Mac and that I do not understand what you mean by the term "playlists" mean that I cannot help you, but as I pointed out burning to DVD+RW or DVD-RW is insane for long term storage. And given that DVD-RW is a technologically inferior solution to DVD+RW I am absolutely at a loss to understand what this mysterious feature is that you seem to think only exists on DVD-RW discs. Maybe someone else here knows.

[rsatria]

Thanks for the info about the length of time we can expect media to last. That is why I have a copy of my DVD's vob files on my computer so that I can use them in the future on other media.

My question, though, is how do I copy only the raw vob files from a DVD+RW to a DVD-RW (or DVD-R for that matter) so that I can re-do the menus?

As I said, when I copy the vob files from the DVD+R/RW, that menu shows up on the DVD-R/RW. I want to be able to set up new menus on the DVD-R/RW.

Regarding the term, "playlists," this is from my DVD recorder's manual: About the words ‘Original’ and ‘Playlist’ -
Throughout this manual, you will often see the words Original and Playlist to refer to the actual content and the edited version.
Original: content refers to what’s actually recorded on the disc.
Playlist: content refers to the edited version of the disc — how the Original content is to be played back.

As I said, the DVD+R/RW does not allow for "Playlists;" rather it just allows me to "split" the original recording so that the menu then shows multiple titles. The DVD-R/RW allows me to keep and view either the original recording, or edit and select from the resulting Playlist menu only those portions of the original that I want to see, in effect editing the original.

[rumplestiltskin]

From your posts, rsatria, it seems that your perspective is using a DVD recorder. So your questions require answers that also assume one is using a DVD recorder -and- that it's the same model you have. Once you involve the Mac (or a PC), you will need one of the DVD -editing- apps. So you are correct in copying the VIDEO_TS folder to your Mac but then you will need to do some editing.

One possibility (and there might be easier ways) is to use MPEG Streamclip to save the set of VOBs to .ts and then crop the video timeline as needed. Then drop the ".ts" files into Toast where you may setup the menu for the videos to be included.

Others here probably know more efficient ways of doing this. Be patient and wait for some answers.

[usually_quiet]

I have home video of my children from 1983 which I have transferred from VHS tape to DVD+RW using a JVC DR-MV80A DVD Video Recorder. The transfer went fine. I now want to set up the menu so that we can jump to the different events (titles) on the dvd. I have found that using a +RW disc, I can only split the video on the recorder to set up new titles. Alternatively, I can keep only the original title and set up chapters for the other events.

I now understand that if I use a DVD-RW disc, I can set up multiple playlists in addition to the original title. I can do so by re-recording from my original VHS onto a DVD-RW disc. However, since my DVD+RW disc already has the vob files, I would simply like to copy those vob files to the DVD-RW disc.

I have tried to do this in multiple ways, including making .cdr and .dmg files (ISO equivalents as I understand it) on my mac and then burning it to the DVD-RW, copying only the vob files, changing the vob extension to mpg, using the programs Disc Utility, Burn, ffmpegX, iDVD, iMovie, and MacTheRipper. But in every case, I get the title from the DVD+RW disc and am NOT ABLE to set up any playlists on the DVD-RW disc. I suppose I could find a mac program that can handle vob files and then re-author and burn to a DVD-RW. But is there any way to simply copy the files to my mac from the DVD+RW and then copy them back to a new DVD-RW so that I can use the playlist features of the DVD-RW media? Thanks.

I took a peek at the manual for the JVC DR-MV80B. Your recorder allows 2 recording modes when using DVD-RW, Video Mode and VR Mode. Video Mode allow limited editing and produces a standard DVD that is playable in regular DVD players once the disc is finalized. VR-Mode recording allows playlists and provides more advanced editing options than Video Mode, but it has a vastly different file structure than DVD Video has. DVD-RW discs recorded in VR mode will likely not be playable as intended using anything other than specific JVC DVD recorders. There are no VOB files and no menu on a disc containing VR mode recordings as there is with a Video Mode disc. The "menu" you see for VR recordings is a virtual one, re-created by the recorder from information about the individual recordings that is stored on the disc. The video is stored in a VRO file.

You can't combine the VOB files you have with the VR mode "menu" and get a useful result. The only way to produce a VR mode recording on a DVD-RW from the recordings you currently have on DVD+RW is to load your DVD+RW disc into a DVD player and re-record to DVD-RW in VR mode. I know you don't want to do that, but it is the only way to create a working VR mode disc that is playable by your DVD recorder.

[DB83]

I do not think there is ANY way you can convert a dvd-video disk (where it is recorded on a +disk - dvd+R - or a -disk - dvd-RW) to a VR mode disk on any PC (or Mac)

The only way is to dub the recording from the recorder on to a disk within the recorder. So if you can dub from the disk back to the HDD of the recorder and then back from the HDD to the -RW disk that is the way to go.

But all this just to create playlists on a -RW disk !!!

It has already been intimated about some limitations of VR-mode disks. That is, if and when created, it will play on your recorder. It will not play on anyone else's recorder unless they have the exact same model as yours. And, it goes to say, if you change your recorder, that disk will no longer play for you either.

[TBoneit]

You are storing your recordings in two ways that are both insecure from a longevity viewpoint.

Rewritable discs are not that durable compared to one time +R or -R and with regards to hard rives it is only when not if they will die. The same for your computer. Sooner or later it will die.

[usually_quiet]

I should amend my earlier statement. I remembered some software that can edit VR format DVD-RW DVDs, and possibly create them, Ulead DVD Movie Factory. ...but it is for Windows XP or Windows Vista and not free, although it has a free trial. I know of nothing free that can that can author DVD-RW VR discs, and nothing for OSX. You can likely use Ulead DVD Movie Factory on a Mac with Boot Camp. You would have to try it to see if its output is compatible with your JVC DVD recorder.

http://www.ulead.com/learning/general/video_04_1.htm
http://www.corel.com/corel/product/index.jsp?pid=prod3430129&cid=catalog20038&skuId=PK...kid=NASEMGglDM

For long term preservation and close to universal playability of the original recordings, I agree with everyone else. I also advise authoring your family videos as standard DVDs on DVD-R or DVD+R. JVC/Taiyo Yuden, or Verbatim AZO, or Verbatim Data Life (not Verbatim's "Life" discs.) are the best quality and most stable write-once media. These are difficult or impossible to find in stores, but available from online specialty retailers.

[rsatria]

Hi. Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I appreciate it.

I do have a few follow up comments/questions:

1. As I said previously, since I've already digitized my vhs tapes to vob files using the dvd recorder, I was trying to save steps and time in getting the files off the original dvd+rw and onto a dvd-r/rw where the dvd recorder's on-board editing of Titles/Chapters is easily done. I've found, however, that DB83 is correct - the only way to get the recording back onto a disc AND access the recorder's menu setup system is to re-record the video. I can re-do it from scratch using my original vhs tape, but I try not use the original vhs tape (from 1983) so as not to degrade it. (By the way, the video on the tape is still in excellent shape). So, I may try copying my vob files to my digital camera's memory card and then use the camera's DV output and dvd recorder's DV input to get the recording back into the dvd recorder. That way, I think I may be able to set up new menus/titles/chapters. Either way, unless someone can come up with any new suggestions, it seems there is no easy method to move recordings off one type of dvd format disk (+r/rw) to another format disc (-r/rw) AND be able to access the menu features on the new disc.

I was able to import my vob files into iMovie 09 using File-Import-Camera Archive, but this took a lot of time to import and then I had to set up Chapter Markers, open the project in iDVD, set up a menu theme, and burn to a dvd-r. It worked, but it's a lot more time and effort than I wanted to spend. I haven't mentioned previously that I have a total of 82 two-hour home video dvds for which I would have to repeat whatever final procedure we come up with.

2. Many have said that the -VR and +VR (Video Recording) modes are not as ubiquitous as Video mode (DVD-Video) on dvd recorders and that we should use only DVD-Video for full compatibility with older machines. I accept that as true for older machines. However, as I do web searches on this, I find that in a majority of cases, the dates of such statements go back a number of years. Does anyone know for certain if there are new dvd recorders being built today that do NOT read/write VR mode? Can you point out some links where I can read about that? Or, has this just become an accepted statement based upon a prior condition that may not apply today?

3. Can you send me some links to some scientific institutions that discuss the dvd disc longevity issue. My web searches find statements by individuals and by companies, who of course, claim their discs to last 30 years. (And I found a company, Millenniata, http://millenniata.com, that claims it's new drives and disc are permanent. (And also, quite expensive). Is this longevity issue also a well-accepted statement that may no longer be true? For example, as I said above, my family vhs tapes were recorded as far back as 1983 and they are still in excellent condition. I have stored them in a temperate, dark, closet all this time, but when I took them out to convert to dvd this year, they were all in great shape. Remember, we were told that these vhs tapes have limited lifetimes as well.

Thanks to all for your help and feedback.

[TBoneit]

Just as an example my Brother asked me to see if I could get some files off of some DVDs. They had worked when He burned them. Now they are unreadable. I told him no luck and stop using Staples brand discs just because they are on sale.

Quality matters. I believe they didn't last one year for him.

I learned my lesson with CDR's I burnt that lost their content over time. I now use good media for anything I want to be permanent excluding a test burn to see if they work. For that I'll use cheapo media and then run them through the shredder when I've tested them.

[DB83]

I will comment on the VR issue.

I bought my first dvd-recorder approx 5 years ago. Typically, I did not read the manual and recorded hours upon hours of disks. When I obtained my second recorder, a few years later, to my horror I realised my mistake and none of these would play on that machine - I can only play them im my PC (using PowerDVD) unless I go to a lot of bother to re-auther them as DVD-video.

I have read nothing in the interim to suggest that the compatablity issue with recorders and VR-mode disks has changed.

From a consumer viewpoint, a 'lifetime guarantee' is a worthless statement. There will be all sorts of ifs and buts to counter any claim assuming even that the firm who make that guarantee is still trading when you try to claim on it.

[usually_quiet]

2. Many have said that the -VR and +VR (Video Recording) modes are not as ubiquitous as Video mode (DVD-Video) on dvd recorders and that we should use only DVD-Video for full compatibility with older machines. I accept that as true for older machines. However, as I do web searches on this, I find that in a majority of cases, the dates of such statements go back a number of years. Does anyone know for certain if there are new dvd recorders being built today that do NOT read/write VR mode? Can you point out some links where I can read about that? Or, has this just become an accepted statement based upon a prior condition that may not apply today?

DVD recorders are on the verge of extinction in the US because of poor sales. Only a few models are being produced by Funai for Toshiba and Magnavox. JVC currently sells only one DVD recorder in the US, the DR-MV150B. Panasonic, Sony, LG, and Samsung are completely out of the DVD recorder business here. A few specialty retailers sell "international" models made by those companies, but none will tune ATSC or QAM, and the manufacturers don't offer support or a warranty for them in the US. These can record NTSC video from their analog inputs. Some will also work for recording analog cable, which the largest cable providers want to eliminate completely, if they haven't already done it.

DVD players are rapidly being phased out, in favor by Blu-ray players, which can play DVDs, but don't offer the as many features for DVD playback as the better quality DVD players did.

It is somewhat doubtful that your VR mode disks will be playable on anything but a computer in a few years.

3. Can you send me some links to some scientific institutions that discuss the dvd disc longevity issue. My web searches find statements by individuals and by companies, who of course, claim their discs to last 30 years. (And I found a company, Millenniata, http://millenniata.com, that claims it's new drives and disc are permanent. (And also, quite expensive). Is this longevity issue also a well-accepted statement that may no longer be true? For example, as I said above, my family vhs tapes were recorded as far back as 1983 and they are still in excellent condition. I have stored them in a temperate, dark, closet all this time, but when I took them out to convert to dvd this year, they were all in great shape. Remember, we were told that these vhs tapes have limited lifetimes as well.

No, but members here have reported that their recordings on phase change media degraded over time. digitalfaq.com may have more info on this but the website won't load for me at present.

[rsatria]

Usually_Quiet:

I took a quick look at the site you recommended, digitalfaq.com.

This is what I found, and the same article seems to make opposing statements:

"Updated April 2008

About four years ago, several fluff articles about "dying media" were published online and sometimes even repeated in print. Those articles were little more than opinion pieces that lacked perspective on the overall technology of optical media, as well as ignored decades of empirical evidence. None of them (as seen by this author) are backed by formal studies from neutral sources. A lot of them read like scare- tactic Fox News broadcasts, or bedtime stories about the boogeyman...There is no need to be scared. Your CDs, DVDs and VHS tapes are not disintegrating on the shelves.

The "Disappearing Data" Myth and Why Discs "Go bad"
The most common complaint online by end-users is they are "suddenly" unable to access data on an optical disc. But instead of calmly trying to understand the situation, they run to online user forums, insist that their "data has disappeared" and that the media in question is an unreliable brand, manufacture or technology. There is no patience, no careful consideration. It's bad, they know it, and the case is closed in their mind. It's the easy answer. And it's incorrect. In almost all cases of "disappearing data" a little more research and patience will reveal the true reason for the inability to access data.
Disc reflectivity...
Drive or player lasers...
The disc was always bad...
User error...
Storage and handling considerations...
Sticky labels...
Pressure...
Extreme temperatures and other mishandling..."

"Optical Change-Phase Media:
Phase change media was created for temporary re-usable situations. It is not archival and should never be used for something that needs to be kept longer than a few weeks. Some empirical data suggests that DVD-RW lasts longer than DVD+RW, and that DVD-RAM is not as affected by this (although not entirely immune). The simple solution is to not use phase change media except when absolutely needed for temporary storage."

So, while internally contradictory on its face, the article does support the case for NOT using -/+RW for long-term storage. However, it was written in 2008, and, as I said before, I'm not finding current scientific information regarding longevity findings.

But, all that notwithstanding, I WILL copy all of my 82 family home video dvds onto an external drive, back it all up on another external drive, and then find a way to get the video onto -r/+r media as you all recommended. The computer backups will allow me to move the video to the next great media storage format, whatever and whenever that may be, and for now I'll use video mode on the discs, just to play it safe.

Although my original goal was to be able to easily set up menus/titles/chapters, maintaining the memories is more important than maintaining the menus.

Thanks again for the comments and advice.

[usually_quiet]

If you do further reading at digitalfaq.com you will find they don't consider all write-once DVD media to be of equivalent quality and reliability either. Their recommendations for first-class burnable media today are the same as what you were told by myself and the others who mentioned specific brands. Better media is more likely to complete the burning process successfully and be playable later in other DVD drives.

[lordsmurf]

I could tear Millenniata data to shreds in about 5 minutes. It's the same kind of baloney you get from gold disc manufacturers. It reminds me of Chili's ribs -- expensive, lots of promises, great ads, but little meat on the bones. There's at least one huge gaping hole in their data.

DVD-RW/DVD+RW is not archival at all.
Hard drive is not completely archival, but can be in the right redundancy setup.

Discs types are important.
Discs manufacturers are more important. (In some minor cases, brands are important.)

[jman98]

So, while internally contradictory on its face, the article does support the case for NOT using -/+RW for long-term storage. However, it was written in 2008, and, as I said before, I'm not finding current scientific information regarding longevity findings.

Believe me, I understand being skeptical. I really do. But you searched and you found evidence that supports what we say and now you argue that it's not recent enough. Honestly, we tried to help and if your standard of proof is impossibly high, not really much more we can do to help you. There's being skeptical and there's being a dumbass. You've crossed the line to the latter. But at least you realize in some small corner of your mind that their MIGHT be a problem so you're going to do something about it by backing them up to a hard disk. Going through life like you are is really no way to live, but it's your life, not mine.

[rsatria]

Hey jman98: You are the one with the problem.

I came to this forum for help and advice on my video issue and I got it from everyone but you.

Your name-calling does nothing to move the issue forward in a positive way.

[CobraPilot]

rsatria, you hit the nail on the head: jman98 IS the one with the problem. Perhaps he's off his meds again.

Anyone who has been in these forums long have seen jman98 quickly resorts to name-calling when his omniscience isn't immediately acknowledged and worshiped. The odd thing is, he can post some really helpful advice sometimes without making it seem like a king talking to a serf. Other times . . . . well, you've seen for yourself.

There is a handy "Report" option in the lower left of all posts. Real easy to cite his rudeness, name-calling, etc., to the Moderators.