Upgrade Questions

[TBoneit]

I do build with customer supplied parts here at work and the Green drive works, it just slows down the boot process.

My preference in boot drives, best to worst is:
SSD
15,000 SCSI
10,000 RPM WD or SCSI
7200 RPM drive, WD, Seagate, Hitachi, Samsung
Green Drive. You want green get a small laptop not a desktop
5400 RPM

I've switched all my stuff to Intel SSD drives. Not the fastest, best reliability, especially compared to one brand that is very fast but has DOAs and early death syndrome. I use in my Desktop & laptops. The One I built for my brother, to future proof it I went Intel SSD boot and 1Tb Data drive, I7 2600, 4Gb etc. It takes almost as long to P.O.S.T. as the boot time after the post. He is now willing to shut down since it boots so quick.

[usually_quiet]

. Apparently, installing the heat sink for Intel products is not as easy. I remember seeing complaints about an Intel mounting system that uses plastic pins to secure the heat sink to the motherboard, but I don't know if that is still the system they use.

They still use that system first introduced win the socket 775. The only time I see a problem is careless users. I always make sure the plastic is through the hole. Then I Press and lock them in a criss-cross patern.

I look under the board before pressing the lock and after to make sure they are locked properly. I always worry with the AMD that the lever will fail. YMMV.

The plastic pins have been known to break or to place undue strain the board during assembly.

The lever isn't likely to fail under ordinary circumstances. The only time I read a complaint, the builder had shipped an assembled system cross country via UPS.

[jagabo]

I think many people could be happy with either an AMD or Intel system.

Of course.

A Phenom II x6 1100T will be a bit faster than an i5 2500K for software that can use all its cores. Handbrake is a well-known example of this kind of software.

Yes, in the Tom's Hardware link I gave earlier that is one of the benchmarks where the x6 won -- by about 5 percent. I went with an i5 2500K this time because I wanted to start playing around with Quick Sync.

[jagabo]

Jagabo I had my computer built by a local computer store and then used Windows 7 Upgrade version so does that mean I can't transfer it? If so that kind of puts a crimp in my computer build because that would require spending a lot more.

You can probably use that license. If it doesn't activate automatically just call Microsoft (you'll get a phone number at that time) and tell them you replaced a defective motherboard.

I figured a cooler came with the CPU or are you saying that you only need to buy a better one for overclocking?

Yes, the retail boxed CPU comes with a cooler sufficient for normal operation. You only need a better one if you plan to overclock.

So would you recommend staying away from a Z68 MB in general (or a particular brand) for a first time builder or just make sure to follow your instructions above?

I would get a Z68 motherboard. If your Win7 upgrade disc is SP1 you shouldn't have problems like I described. If it's the original release just be aware that you may have to work around the graphics driver problem.

What do you think of the Cooler Master Elite 310 case?

It looks ok to me. The 420 watt power supply is sufficient unless you plan to go for a monster graphics card. I like 120mm case fans because they run quieter. I have a smaller Cooler Master case (Elite 341) and it's pretty flimsy. Not to the point of being a problem though. Size, looks and layout are more of a personal issue.

Those memory modules are very tall. They may interfere with the CPU cooler or disk drive slots in some cases.

What do you mean?

The memory modules stuck up so high that they interfered with the 3.5" drive bays in the aforementioned Elite 341 (bought on a whim several moths ago because it was very cheap -- like $5) -- I could not put drives in those bays. I ended up swapping everything out of another case -- which was the eventual plan anyway. Some of the bigger CPU coolers may also clash with them.

[usually_quiet]

The PSU that is supplied with that cooler Cooler Master Elite 310 is not great. I looked at NewEgg's pictures for the Cooler Master Elite case and PSU. The PSU model number shown is TM-420-PMSR. Here is a link to its spec sheet: http://cmupload.coolermaster-usa.com.vhost.zerolag.com/saleskit/Power%20Supply/Noteboo...PMSR(PMSP).pdf This is a link to someone's technical evaluation of the product: http://psurepair.freeforums.org/thermal-master-tm-420-pmsr-review-t158.html

It may be workable for a system built around an MATX motherboard, but it is not a good choice for most ATX motherboards. It lacks an 8-pin CPU power connector, which many newer ATX (and some MATX) motherboards use. It is an older design with a passive PFC, not an active PFC. It also is relatively inefficient at around 65%. Reviewers at NewEgg indicated there are only 2 SATA power connections, which means you will need some molex to SATA cables if you install more than 2 SATA drives. It is likely that it won't actually supply 420W, according to the tecnical evaluation I linked to, so if you plan to add a discrete video card some day, you will need to get a better PSU that can deliver more wattage. 500W is usually recommended now in the owner's manual for current motherboards and VGA cards.

[jagabo]

I agree the PSU isn't the greatest. But it's sufficient for the NewEgg bundle. It won't even draw 150 watts unless he adds a graphics card. The aforementioned Core i5 2500K system I put together with 8 GB memory and 3 hard drives is running about 65 watts at idle, 125 watts when encoding with x264. Measured at the wall with a Kill-a-watt.

The lack of an 8 pin CPU power connector could be an issue if he uses another motherboard. The low efficiency will add a bit to his electric bill -- maybe $20 a year unless he's running full out 24/7. And, of course, it won't hurt to buy a better PSU.

[mccoady]

Ok say my budget was $500 (give or take) and providing I can use my current Windows 7 license this is what I come up with:

1. i5 -2500K = $220
2. Z68 Mobo = $115
3. RAM 8GB (for now) = $60
4. Case/PSU

The prices above don't take into account sales but that roughly leaves $100 give or take for a case and fan any suggestions? Can you get a good case case and a 500W PSU for around $100 or do you have to spend more?

On the computer I'm using now I have several SATA drives so I'm having to use molex to SATA cables whether that's good or bad on my 350W PSU.

Can you put any watt PSU in a computer or does it have something to do with your Mobo or PCU?

Should it be entirely ruled out my using my current computer/case and replacing the Mobo, PCU, RAM, and PSU for the case or is it simply much easier starting over with a clean slate and a new case.

[usually_quiet]

Ok say my budget was $500 (give or take) and providing I can use my current Windows 7 license this is what I come up with:

1. i5 -2500K = $220
2. Z68 Mobo = $115
3. RAM 8GB (for now) = $60
4. Case/PSU

The prices above don't take into account sales but that roughly leaves $100 give or take for a case and fan any suggestions? Can you get a good case case and a 500W PSU for around $100 or do you have to spend more?

A little over your budget but with what you save on shipping, these are two of the best deals at New Egg now:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371035
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042

Without special offers, I might have a different recommendation, but it would take more time to figure that out.

On the computer I'm using now I have several SATA drives so I'm having to use molex to SATA cables whether that's good or bad on my 350W PSU.

Molex to SATA cables are neither good or bad for the drives themselves. Having enough SATA power connections available from the PSU is just tidier and more convenient.

Can you put any watt PSU in a computer or does it have something to do with your Mobo or PCU?

Most motherboard manufacturers list a recommended PSU wattage in the manual. To play it safe you can follow that. If there is a discrete video card, it will also have a recommended PSU wattage somewhere in its documentation. You would pick the higher of the two recommendations. PSU calculators are also a useful reference.

Should it be entirely ruled out my using my current computer/case and replacing the Mobo, PCU, RAM, and PSU for the case or is it simply much easier starting over with a clean slate and a new case.

What is the make and model of your current case? That would help us figure out if it is worth re-using.

[jagabo]

If you're happy with your old case, and the new components will fit in it, there's no reason to get a new one. On the other hand, you might want to keep the old computer running until after you have the new one set up. That way it's easy to transfer files from the old to the new.

[mccoady]

I like both the case and PSU you linked to and I also see many favorably reviewed the Cooler Master Haf 912 would it be any better?

I know looks don't mean anything but the Antec Three Hundred and Haf 912 look awfully good and would probably handle cooling better than my old case.

Would spending more for a case say up to a $100 actually get you anymore features than the above budget models or are you just wasting money?

I can't find any markings on my computer case but it appears to be a full tower, has a lot of room, and has latches on the 5.25" drive bays for easy removal although I rarely remove a drive. I believe with the 3.5" drive bays I have to remove the screws certainly not as easy as my son's Dell desktop where a hard drive easily slide in and out.

I do like the idea of buying a new case since it would allow me to gradually build the computer as my budget permitted and yet still be able to use my old computer. Do most use mid towers nowadays and do you ever feel like space is cramped when trying to mount everything?

The Antec PSU you linked to seems to be at a very good price is it really that good of a buy or do you often see quality (or I assume the Antec EA-500D Green is quality) 500W PSU's for this price?

[aedipuss]

that would be a small mid-tower. a full tower has room for at least 10 drives and usually the power supply at the bottom. like this.

[Bix]

I could have sworn I heard that Intel had changed the way that the coolers attach to the mobo. I hated those things. Current stock AMD coolers are incredibly easy to install, quiet, and cool very well for a stock cooler.

[TBoneit]

. Apparently, installing the heat sink for Intel products is not as easy. I remember seeing complaints about an Intel mounting system that uses plastic pins to secure the heat sink to the motherboard, but I don't know if that is still the system they use.

They still use that system first introduced win the socket 775. The only time I see a problem is careless users. I always make sure the plastic is through the hole. Then I Press and lock them in a criss-cross patern.

I look under the board before pressing the lock and after to make sure they are locked properly. I always worry with the AMD that the lever will fail. YMMV.

The plastic pins have been known to break or to place undue strain the board during assembly.

The lever isn't likely to fail under ordinary circumstances. The only time I read a complaint, the builder had shipped an assembled system cross country via UPS.

I've never had problems with either system. I just didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling with the AMD system.

Since the Socket 775 I've never seen bent pins on the CPU. I did see where the customer tried to use the wrong processor on a i5 and bent the socket's pins though.

[Bix]

Bent pushpins on the cooler, not bent pins on the CPU or socket itself.

[usually_quiet]

I like both the case and PSU you linked to and I also see many favorably reviewed the Cooler Master Haf 912 would it be any better?

I know looks don't mean anything but the Antec Three Hundred and Haf 912 look awfully good and would probably handle cooling better than my old case.

Would spending more for a case say up to a $100 actually get you anymore features than the above budget models or are you just wasting money?

I can't find any markings on my computer case but it appears to be a full tower, has a lot of room, and has latches on the 5.25" drive bays for easy removal although I rarely remove a drive. I believe with the 3.5" drive bays I have to remove the screws certainly not as easy as my son's Dell desktop where a hard drive easily slide in and out.

I do like the idea of buying a new case since it would allow me to gradually build the computer as my budget permitted and yet still be able to use my old computer. Do most use mid towers nowadays and do you ever feel like space is cramped when trying to mount everything?

The Antec PSU you linked to seems to be at a very good price is it really that good of a buy or do you often see quality (or I assume the Antec EA-500D Green is quality) 500W PSU's for this price?

One thing to note on the Antec PSU. There is no included PSU power cord to plug into the wall socket/surge protector. Make sure you have one you can use if you purchase that particular PSU.

Your case looks like an ATX mid-tower. If you need to conserve your funds it looks like it would be OK for another system built around either a an ATX motherboard or an MATX motherboard. It is hard to tell from the picture, but big VGA cards and big aftermarket coolers might be a problem.

The interior of the Cooler Master Haf 912 is better than the Antec in some ways. It has openings that can be used to run PSU cables under the motherboard tray for neat cabling.(The Antec 300 doesn't have that feature.) The orientation of the HDD cages in the Haf 910 is nicer in some ways, but two different orientations on the drive cages can also make it somewhat more difficult to connect power to all the SATA drives. (The connections often all on one long cable.) SATA data cables with one right-angle are probably necessary if the hard drive cages are used in a different orientation from the optical drives so the cables won't be bent too sharply.

You Tube has video reviews for the Cooler Master Haf 912. This one was pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv7mFfWhERY

Sometime the extra cost goes into windows, blinking lights, and other cosmetic features, but often the more expensive cases are built better, and are more likely to provide some helpful cable-management features. The more expensive cases tend to be more durable and owners often re-use them again.

[jagabo]

Yes, that's a much nicer case than the Elite 310.

[mccoady]

I can't tell you how much I've learned here since I started out knowing very little about putting together a computer but I feel I'm a little wiser now thanks to you guys! Just a few more questions if you don't mind and then I won't bug you for awhile.

On the Antec PSU (yes I have a power cord) is it big enough for a Z68 Mobo with or without a separate video card or do I need something bigger? And is that a good price for a 500W PSU ($60) or can you always pick them up for that?

These are the cases I'm considering and will be price watching does any case stand out whether it be for design or price so I can narrow it down some?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119233&Tpk=haf%20912
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119216
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112319
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119196
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112239

I'm still a little worried that I won't be able to transfer my Windows 7 license so if I'm not allowed to will I have to buy a full retail license like here http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116716

[usually_quiet]

I can't tell you how much I've learned here since I started out knowing very little about putting together a computer but I feel I'm a little wiser now thanks to you guys! Just a few more questions if you don't mind and then I won't bug you for awhile.

On the Antec PSU (yes I have a power cord) is it big enough for a Z68 Mobo with or without a separate video card or do I need something bigger? And is that a good price for a 500W PSU ($60) or can you always pick them up for that?

These are the cases I'm considering and will be price watching does any case stand out whether it be for design or price so I can narrow it down some?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119233&Tpk=haf%20912
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119216
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112319
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119196
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112239

I'm still a little worried that I won't be able to transfer my Windows 7 license so if I'm not allowed to will I have to buy a full retail license like here http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116716

The price on that Antec PSU is pretty good. Look at the link again. They normally sell for $20 more when not on sale. These don't go on sale with a discount like that very often. Some motherboards do specify a higher wattage PSU, usually those that have slots for two or more video cards.

I like the looks of the Haf 912 or the Antec 300 better than the more expensive cases, but that is a personal preference. Some of the other cases have a e-SATA or firewire connection on the front or top, which is conveneint if you use them often. Windowed cases are OK, but not for those who don't always keep the inside of the case clean and tidy. Before buying read the user reviews and see if the case has a history of problems with something.

[jagabo]

Some motherboards do specify a higher wattage PSU, usually those that have slots for two or more video cards.

Of course, if you're not going to use two or more video cards, or not even one video card, you don't need that much PSU.

[usually_quiet]

I have to agree with jagabo, a 500W PSU should be enough for people who use their i5's onboard graphics only, or have one ordinary VGA card, regardless of the manufacturer's requirements. Here is another PSU (on sale) to consider, now that the price on the Antec 500W PSU is less attractive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139027

I forgot to answer your question about the OS. The full retail version of a Windows OS is a wise purchase if you plan upgrade both your motherboard and CPU at the same time in the near future, and want to stick with Windows 7 for a few more years. Otherwise, if MS won't let you transfer your current license just get another copy of the OEM version and save $100.

If I remember correctly, Windows 8 is supposed to come out next year. Depending on how it is received by the public, you may decide you want to upgrade the OS at that time and spend the $100 you saved on an upgrade license for Windows 8..

[jagabo]

You can also use an upgrade version of Win7 and perform a clean install.

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows-7/clean-install-windows-7-with-upgrade-media

[mccoady]

I have to agree with jagabo, a 500W PSU should be enough for people who use their i5's onboard graphics only, or have one ordinary VGA card, regardless of the manufacturer's requirements. Here is another PSU (on sale) to consider, now that the price on the Antec 500W PSU is less attractive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139027

Is that a better PSU than the Antec because I can still buy the Antec here for the same price http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002VLYKDO?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&tag=invihand-20&linkCode=xm2 or how about the 650W version
http://www.amazon.com/Antec-EA-650-Green-Energy-Certified/dp/B004NBZAES/ref=sr_1_12?s=...311181&sr=1-12

I have Amazon Prime so I just have to pay tax but I did notice the Antec's use a 80mm fan where the Corsair use a 120mm fan is that a factor?

You can also use an upgrade version of Win7 and perform a clean install.

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows-7/clean-install-windows-7-with-upgrade-media

Yes I had to do that when I upgraded from XP Pro and what I planned to do with the new build since I wanted to switch to 64 bit. Will this increase the chance of my license transferring?

[jagabo]

or how about the 650W version
http://www.amazon.com/Antec-EA-650-Green-Energy-Certified/dp/B004NBZAES/ref=sr_1_12?s=...311181&sr=1-12

650 watts is overkill for you.

Very cheap power supplies usually can't output their rated wattage. Many can barely produce half their claimed power. They often take the max power output at 12 volts alone, and the max power at 5 volts along and add them together. But they can't produce both of those max values at the same time. And some just outright lie. Tom's Hardware has covered this recently.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/low-cost-psu-pc-power-supply,2862.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/inadequate-deceptive-product-labeling,536.html

Tom's on <$75 power supplies:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-psu-80-plus,2746.html

Antec EarthWatts EA 380D Green 380W
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3902/antec-earthwatts-ea-380d-green-380w

If people really took the time to examine system power requirements, we would see a tremendous increase in sales of 300W to 400W PSUs. The truth is that the vast majority of systems would run optimally with such a "small" power supply.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2624

General PSU info:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pc-power-supplies,1664.html

Stress Test: Power Supplies Under Full Load:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/stress-test,1073.html

You can also use an upgrade version of Win7 and perform a clean install.

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows-7/clean-install-windows-7-with-upgrade-media

Yes I had to do that when I upgraded from XP Pro and what I planned to do with the new build since I wanted to switch to 64 bit. Will this increase the chance of my license transferring?

I recently did a fresh install from Win7 from an upgrade 3-pack. The drive I installed it on had Linux. During the install I deleted the Linux partition. It never asked for any proof that I had a qualifying Microsoft operating system to upgrade from.

[mccoady]

Jagabo you seem to be making a case for something smaller than a 500W PSU but since there's not much difference in price between a 380W and 500W I think I may stay with the latter so which one the Antec or Corsair?

What is your choice on a computer case?

[jagabo]

Well, I'm just pointing out that your real power requirement will be met by a 380 watt PSU. Going with 500 watts won't hurt.

Antec or Corsair? The Corsair has a 120mm fan and it's further inside, not the outside vent side. That may be quieter.

[usually_quiet]

I have to agree with jagabo, a 500W PSU should be enough for people who use their i5's onboard graphics only, or have one ordinary VGA card, regardless of the manufacturer's requirements. Here is another PSU (on sale) to consider, now that the price on the Antec 500W PSU is less attractive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139027

Is that a better PSU than the Antec because I can still buy the Antec here for the same price http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002VLYKDO?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&tag=invihand-20&linkCode=xm2 or how about the 650W version
http://www.amazon.com/Antec-EA-650-Green-Energy-Certified/dp/B004NBZAES/ref=sr_1_12?s=...311181&sr=1-12

I have Amazon Prime so I just have to pay tax but I did notice the Antec's use a 80mm fan where the Corsair use a 120mm fan is that a factor?

Antec is an established brand with a good reputation, but Corsair is gaining popularity with gamers. Some people might like the Corsair's color better. Either should be of acceptable quality. 500W is plenty for most people.

A 120mm fan may be quieter, since fewer RPMs are needed to move the same amount of air as an 80mm fan.

Either PSU should be fine with the cases you are looking at, but here are circumstances where the Antec would be a better choice. I have seen a few PC cases that were constructed in such a way that an air intake situated on the bottom or top of a PSU would be blocked by something, and a fan at the rear of the PSU would work better.

[jagabo]

Regarding cases, I thought the Cooler Master HAF 912 was a good choice. I don't mind spending a little more on cases because I tend to use them through several generations of motherboards. Some of my computers are in 24" tall full tower cases from 15 years ago! I like those cases because they are tall enough to sit beside the desk and provide more desk space rather than sitting on the desk taking up desk space.

And regarding slowing buying parts, keep in mind that some parts depreciate very quickly. CPUs drop in price every quarter. Memory prices go up and down a lot but the general trend is down (on a dollar per gigabyte basis). Cases and power supplies don't vary as much. So don't buy a CPU and sit on it for six months while you wait for sales on other components. On the other hand, if you see a case you like at a good price, buy it. It won't be half that price in six months.

[mccoady]

I pretty much like the design of the Haf 912 but these are some of the things I would like and I can't tell if this design does that:

1. I want an internal card reader so I'm wondering where it will be mounted ideally it would be located in the center or higher for easy access. Does it look like it would mount in the 4th 5.25" slot down from the top?

2. Does this have a led on/off so I can tell if it's on?

3. It looks like it comes with a front and rear mounted 120mm fan is the front one a LED lighted one which I would prefer?

4. Since the 912 isn't painted inside (wish it was) would a front mounted LED fan show or expose the unpainted insides?

5. I would prefer toolless mounting does it look like the top optical slot is showing it but not the others?

6. It looks like the hard drives use drive rails so is this sort of toolless mounting?

7. How does the front cover come off is it easily removed I'm always afraid of breaking tabs?



Thanks for the info on buying parts!

[jagabo]

I pretty much like the design of the Haf 912 but these are some of the things I would like and I can't tell if this design does that:

1. I want an internal card reader so I'm wondering where it will be mounted ideally it would be located in the center or higher for easy access. Does it look like it would mount in the 4th 5.25" slot down from the top?

It looks that way. If you want it higher there are always 5 1/4 inch to 3 1/2 inch tray adapters.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811993007

2. Does this have a led on/off so I can tell if it's on?

I suspect the two vertical bars between the power and reset buttons are LEDs.

3. It looks like it comes with a front and rear mounted 120mm fan is the front one a LED lighted one which I would prefer?

Newegg says two fans, one front and one back. No mention of LEDs.

4. Since the 912 isn't painted inside (wish it was) would a front mounted LED fan show or expose the unpainted insides?

Don't know. Probably.

5. I would prefer toolless mounting does it look like the top optical slot is showing it but not the others?

I think the video review mentioned that only the top 5 1/4 inch bay had the clip.

6. It looks like the hard drives use drive rails so is this sort of toolless mounting?

I'm not sure exactly how those work.

7. How does the front cover come off is it easily removed I'm always afraid of breaking tabs?

Don't know.

If you're going to be swapping drives all the time get one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/KingWin-3-5-Inch-Internal-Tray-Less-KF-1000-BK/dp/B00126U0VA/

[aedipuss]

i have the haf 932 and if the 912 is like it there is no front cover, each front drive bay has a removable cover. yes it has an on led. if it has a fan led it also has a button to turn it on or off. the tool less mounting of the 3.5 drives works well, they have trays that attach with push pins and a cage that closes to keep them secure.