What kind of camcorder should I get to film pigeons flying?

[ezeedad]

I raise roller pigeons, which fly around overhead, performing. They may spin really fast at times and will be about 100, 200 or more feet high when they perform. I want to record this performance to the best of my ability, and I can put up to $3,000-$4,000 on this project.
From what I have gathered, I will need robably 20x optical zoom. I will also need to be able to capture the speed of their rolling. I don't expect to record their whole flight, only a few select performances. I just want to get lucky a few times to make it worth my while. I'll probably edit out 99% or more.
Can anyone suggest what I should use to fill my needs?

[TreeTops]

I also video birds. Mostly those around here like the barn swallows and tree swallows. Very hard to keep them in the field of view and you will find that it is almost impossible to keep birds in the field of view when you use that 20x zoom. It will become useless. You can use almost any video camera for birds. Even the flip cameras will work. But you need to wait till they are close enough to you. You should do a lot of practice runs to gain the experience of smooth movements of the camera and I would advise a tripod for that.

[jagabo]

If you're interested in smooth slow motion you should get one of the consumer HD cameras that can shoot 120, 240, or 600 fps (at reduced resolution).

[jagabo]

If you're interested in smooth slow motion you should consider one of the consumer HD cameras that can shoot at 120, 240, or 600 fps (at reduced resolution). For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6EGtUIY2PQ

[budwzr]

I go to LAX once in a while (In n Out Burger on Sepulveda) to shoot jumbo jets landing, and it's VERY difficult, even though the planes are going a constant speed.

[redwudz]

I'd probably shoot in HD at a high framerate and somewhat of a wide angle, then crop it down during editing to keep them centered. Even if you end up with SD quality resolution after cropping, you would probably have better luck than trying to keep them in the frame using a 20X telephoto setting.

Or you might be able to use a sturdy tripod and some sort of wide angle 'gun-sight' attached to the camera and just use the pan/tilt control on the tripod to track them. Maybe just a piece of tubing or similar would work. Trying to look through the viewfinder/LCD screen at telephoto settings will just give you motion sickness.

You 'might' also be able to use a Deshaker program in VirtualDub or similar to keep the birds centered during editing. Never tried that, though.

[ezeedad]

TreeTops,
Thanks for your reply. I have seen lots of videos of roller pigeons shot with regular camcorders and hardly any of them catch the type of image that I want to see. These birds will be a lot easier to keep in the field of view because they fly slower and in a fairly predictable pattern. I am willing to shoot for a long time to get a few good shots. I'm expecting to get maybe only one or two percent good shots even... But I like the idea of using a consumer camcorder that has high FPS like Jagabo mentioned. I'll have to find out who makes those.... Also I am planning to use a monopod because I'll have to turn around a lot as they circle overhead.

[ezeedad]

Jagabo
Thanks for your info about a high FPS type camcorder. I thought they all shot at 30fps. I would be very interested in shooting them in slow motion to see how they propel their fast spins. There is one good slow motion video out that shows rollersup close and in slo-mo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGwDOzpTcgs&feature=player_embedded
This was shot professionally... with very expensive gear... If I could come anywhere close I'd be very happy.

[ezeedad]

Budwzr,
Jumbo jets would seem to be easy..... But who am I to say..... I haven't even tried yet... Hope I can post a clip or two here sometime soon...

[ezeedad]

Redwudz,
Thanks, I'll look into that deshaker program.. when I get to that stage. I am pretty sure that I'm going to get a DSLR so that I can use different lenses. I don't see anyone mentioning specific makes or models of cameras... Is this forbidden on this site? Also I do want to crop as I edit... and I want to use a monopod to help stabilize the image...

[jagabo]

I like the idea of using a consumer camcorder that has high FPS like Jagabo mentioned. I'll have to find out who makes those...

Search for "240 fps" or "600 fps" at youtube and you'll see many samples. The posters' usually mention which camera or camcorder they used. Be aware that the resolution is much reduced at the higher frame rates. Typical is something like the Casio EX-FH100:

120fps at 640x480
240fps at 448x336
420fps at 224x168
1,000fps at 224x64

[deadrats]

@ezeedad

i just watched the youtube video of these types of pigeons and i am wondering how the hell you train them to do something like that? i didn't think pigeons were smart enough to be trained in that way, that's so cool. any info is appreciated.

[redwudz]

There's no problem mentioning specific makes or models of cameras on our site.

[jagabo]

Yeah, I just don't have any specific recommendations.

[ezeedad]

Deadrats,
That characteristic is bred into the birds. They are Birmingham rollers. My club website is http://larclub.wordpress.com/
If you want an invite to bigger sites I can invite you to a couple... ezeedad@aol.com Paul Gomez...
Be careful these birds can be addictive... Really.... but it is a challenging hobby and also has a competitive side.

[ezeedad]

Jagabo,
I found one ..a Sanyo HD2000..... right away.... Thanks... I'll check for more....

redwudz,
Thanks....

[edDV]

Redwudz,
Thanks, I'll look into that deshaker program.. when I get to that stage. I am pretty sure that I'm going to get a DSLR so that I can use different lenses. I don't see anyone mentioning specific makes or models of cameras... Is this forbidden on this site? Also I do want to crop as I edit... and I want to use a monopod to help stabilize the image...

You didn't mention the method of display. If for personal computer display then the consumer high frame rate models may get exciting results. Those may need to be slowed down in software for normal TV viewing as is done in nature TV series. Those guys still mostly shoot high speed film.

There is a subcategory of high speed consumer cams like the Casio but lens will not be interchangeable.
http://exilim.casio.com/digital_cameras/High-Speed

I'm not aware of a high frame rate DSLR. They mostly shoot 24, 25 or 30 fps. Broadcast level cams can reach 60fps. You want to be shooting higher than that and as you say, discarding 99%.

[ezeedad]

Redwudz,
I a only interested in puting them on the web and burning some DVDs....
A few minutes ago a guy on one of the roller sites posted his youtube vids... They are just what I would like to do.

He said:

"A few months ago, I bought a Sony HDR-XR150 for around $530. It has a special feature called Smooth Slow recording mode. While in this mode, you can take 3-second HD clips at 240 fps. It plays back at quarter speed (12 seconds at 60 fps), which allows you to see individual wing beats. The nice thing about this feature is that you can set it to record the 3 seconds prior to you hitting the record button. So you just follow your rollers with the camera, then when they start to do something of note (i.e., crank a nice roll), you continue to follow them for 3 seconds, then hit the record button. Of course, the quality isn't as good as a $6000 professional video camera, but it's pretty darn good for the price. Below are links to some roller videos that I've posted on youtube. By the time they've been converted for youtube consumption, quite a bit of the quality has been lost. When you play these back with the camera connected to an HDTV, the quality is much better, and you can slow it down even further to easily count a bird's revs/second. BTW, I've concluded that a pretty nice rollers clock in at 10 rps. I'm guessing an exceptional one will do around 12 rps, but I haven't verified that yet."


Here are the videos:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzQckhODDQs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyOZl-nMR7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujQ90xNutTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sotZqpiKrKA

[edDV]

I remember that now. So long as 12 sec @240 fps works for you.

[ezeedad]

edDV,
I meant that answer for you about method of display... web or burn a dvd....
I think the Sony XR 150 or 160 should work for me judging by the clips I posted. But I shouild check that Casio you sent the link for.... 1,000 fps..!! WOW..!! That would be extending the limits..!! Thanks a lot..

[jagabo]

1,000 fps..!! WOW..!! That would be extending the limits..!!

But keep in mind the frame size is only 224x64 at that frame rate. Barely more than a thumbnail:



Compare that to a DVD at 720x480 or 720x576 or HDTV at 1280x720 or 1920x1080.

[budwzr]

1,000 fps..!! WOW..!! That would be extending the limits..!!

But keep in mind the frame size is only 224x64 at that frame rate. Barely more than a thumbnail:


[Attachment 7841 - Click to enlarge]

Compare that to a DVD at 720x480 or 720x576 or HDTV at 1280x720 or 1920x1080.

It's not going to be easy, otherwise the golf programs would zoom in on and follow the ball instead of just pan wide.

[edDV]

The Sony HDR-XR150 records 12sec at 240 fps then plays back slo-mo at 60 fields per sec 1/4 speed. That isn't slow enough to resolve the wing motion well.

Not sure what else you are asking.

Here's an article on the more expensive pro high speed HD cams used in nature shows. The film comparison is 1000 fps using 16mm film.
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2011/1/4/review-high-speed-cameras.html

[jagabo]

The Sony HDR-XR150 records 12sec at 240 fps then plays back slo-mo at 60 fields per sec 1/4 speed. That isn't slow enough to resolve the wing motion well.

But you can slow that to 30 fps for internet streaming so you'll get 1/8 speed.

Here's an article on the more expensive pro high speed HD cams used in nature shows. The film comparison is 1000 fps using 16mm film.
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2011/1/4/review-high-speed-cameras.html

And there are digital cameras that shoot 100,000 fps and more. But the $ prices are similar to the frame rates.

[ezeedad]

Just want to post an update.... Here is my first video using a Sony HDR - XR 160.... smooth slow motion function...

[edDV]

nice work

[jagabo]

Cool. So that's 240 fps slowed down to 30 fps?

[ezeedad]

Thanks edDV...

Yes Jag...

[Khaver]

Just curious. Is this behavior a defense mechanism to confuse falcons, hawks and other birds of prey or is it a mating ritual?

[TreeTops]

Also just curious...How do you record at 240 fps with that camera?