Black borders for subs appearing in SVP10, disappearing after render.

[Zamoonda]

Hi there, thanks for entering my thread.

I require some assistance with a bit of subtitle-managing. I really, really don't want the subtitles to appear over the picture I'm subbing, and when I began working on the video, I simply extended the height to allow black borders at the top and bottom with Sony Vegas Pro 10, which is what I'm using to create the subtitles. (Regardless if it's the most efficient way, it's fun to use it) In specific, I hit Project Video Properties (that little mouse on a white background above the video in the project) and edited the height by 400, to create black bars. In those bars, I made the subtitles. After I rendered the video, as I checked it to make sure all's fine and okay, I saw that the black borders were gone, and suddenly the subtitles were on the picture! No matter what I did, I cannot seem to make black borders appear at the top and bottom of the picture. I don't want to undo parts of the picture, simply add borders to the picture. Many things are occurring at the bottom of the things, I cannot afford to create black bars over the pictures.

Please, can anyone be of assistance?

[poisondeathray]

what were your project settings and render settings ?

[Zamoonda]

what were your project settings and render settings ?

Project Settings. Project Settings. Uh, I assume it's Project Video Properties. Under the latter, it is;

Template: Custom (1500x1080, 29.970fps)

Width (1,500)
Height (1,080) (strangely it ... reset, but ... it's still showing the borders? How strange.)

Field order: None (progressive scan)
Pixel aspect ratio: 1.0000 (Square)

Output rotation: 0* (original)

Frame rate: 29.970 (NTSC)

Stereocopic 3D mode: Off

Pixel format: 8-bit

Compositing gamma: 2.222 (Video)
Full resolution rendering quality: Best
Motion blur type: Gaussian
Deinterlace method: Blend fields

(Ticked):Adjust source media to better match project or render settings.


I don't think Audio, Ruler, Summary and Audio CD are relevant. Skipping.


In rendering, I either render it as mp4, which is what I highly, highly prefer, or as wmv. Any ideas also which type is the smallest file size yet stays at something like 720p or 1080p? Because 200 MB for a 2-minute-video is kind of a lot. Or is it? I just feel like a 2-minute video being 200 MB is quite a lot. Is there any way to reduce the file size without reducing it from 1080p?

Template, when I'm at Sony AVC (mp4, m2ts, avc), is Internet 1920x1080-30p (*)

At Custom, the video format is AVC, frame size is High Definition (1820x1080), Allow source to adjust frame size is unticked, Profile is baseline, entroping coding is CAVLC, frame rate is 29.970 (NTSC), allow source to adjust frame rate is unticked, field order is none, pixel aspect ratio is 1.0000, bitrate is 13,000,000, encode mode is Automatic.

When I'm at wmv, I use the 8 Mbps HD 1080-30p Video.

Under custom, and under video, mode is CBR, format is Windows Media Video 9, image size is High Definition (1440x1080), frame rate is 29.970 (NTSC), seconds per keyframe is 5, override default compression buffer (seconds) is ticked and value set at 3, video smoothness is at 90.

[poisondeathray]

If your project properties are 1500x1080 square pixels, and you export 1500x1080 square pixels, then you should get what you see in the preview. Your current settings don't match

What are your goals? What do you plan to do with the export ?

1500x1080 is not 16:9 aspect ratio, so if you upload to youtube , it will be pillarboxed

Any ideas also which type is the smallest file size yet stays at something like 720p or 1080p? Because 200 MB for a 2-minute-video is kind of a lot. Or is it? I just feel like a 2-minute video being 200 MB is quite a lot. Is there any way to reduce the file size without reducing it from 1080p?

Filesize = bitrate x running time


so you can lower the bitrate , but the quality is proportional to the bitrate. Lowering the bitrate will lower the filesize, but also the quality

[Zamoonda]

To the second; I see. But surely there are other ways to make the filesiz smaller? For example, changing the audio from 5.1 to Stereo, which I've already done. Things that I wouldn't need, or really are not noticable within it.

To the first; I'm not sure. At all, really, what's going on in the project properties. I plan to upload a small piece from a movie, and then subtitle it. To be specific, a song. So when I ran it, I already had black borders at the top and bottom; don't ask me why, I really have not the slightest of a clue. In any event, it appears when I render it I don't, how would one add black borders to the top and bottom? The subtitles are in specific size 9, and there will only be two lines at a time, as usual. I'm trying to find a way on how to accommodate this fact. I just can't seem to find a way to add black borders; much less the right size for the subs. I assume I should just be playing with the height and width?

[poisondeathray]

To the second; I see. But surely there are other ways to make the filesiz smaller? For example, changing the audio from 5.1 to Stereo, which I've already done. Things that I wouldn't need, or really are not noticable within it.

There are many approaches, but the math equation above is absolute

For example you could use a more efficient encoder, use better settings, use a mild denoiser, stabilize the footage. Some of these topics get pretty advanced, you can use search, as many of them are discussed in other articles. There is bit of a learning curve, and many of the tools aren't included in vegas

To the first; I'm not sure. At all, really, what's going on in the project properties. I plan to upload a small piece from a movie, and then subtitle it. To be specific, a song. So when I ran it, I already had black borders at the top and bottom; don't ask me why, I really have not the slightest of a clue. In any event, it appears when I render it I don't, how would one add black borders to the top and bottom? The subtitles are in specific size 9, and there will only be two lines at a time, as usual. I'm trying to find a way on how to accommodate this fact. I just can't seem to find a way to add black borders; much less the right size for the subs. I assume I should just be playing with the height and width?

If you don't know what you want to do, we cant help

1) You plan to upload a small piece - what do you mean by that? upload to a video hosting site like youtube?
2) What are the dimensions and aspect ratio of the source file? Is it letterboxed ?
3) What type of subs? What format? e.g srt, ssa ? plain text ?

[Zamoonda]

1) You plan to upload a small piece - what do you mean by that? upload to a video hosting site like youtube?
2) What are the dimensions and aspect ratio of the source file? Is it letterboxed ?
3) What type of subs? What format? e.g srt, ssa ? plain text ?

1) Yes, sorry. My apologies for not being clear; yes, I plan to upload a 2.3 minute video to Youtube.
2) I'm sorry, dimensions and aspect ratio? I'm really sorry, but I'm quite new to all of this. I know what the dimensions and aspect ratio is, but how can I locate them? I have the source file with me right here. I assume by source file you mean the original file, before being rendered and edited and so on. I assume what you mean are the frame width and height, which it is 1920x1080. I fear I couldn't find anything else in the file's properties. How would I find the aspect ratio? And what do you mean by letterbox?
3. Plain text, yes. I simply added a new video track, and put text accordingly. I would assume already this is one of the most inefficient and longest ways to do so, but I fear I have only purchased Sony Vegas three days ago, for completely different uses. I found some spare time, and I thought I might start getting adept at it.

[poisondeathray]

2) I'm sorry, dimensions and aspect ratio? I'm really sorry, but I'm quite new to all of this. I know what the dimensions and aspect ratio is, but how can I locate them? I have the source file with me right here. I assume by source file you mean the original file, before being rendered and edited and so on. I assume what you mean are the frame width and height, which it is 1920x1080. I fear I couldn't find anything else in the file's properties. How would I find the aspect ratio? And what do you mean by letterbox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterbox


The frame dimensions are 1920x1080, but the content might be wider or narrower, there might be black borders already , pillarboxing or letterboxing encoded into the original video. Also the screen dimensions of your display and the settings you have for your media player might alter the image.

It might be easier if you post a sample of the video, and describe where you want the subs

[Zamoonda]

I'd prefer not to, but hey, I need to get used to that this is the internet, we will most probably never again meet. This is sample one, taken out of the already-rendered video. Do you want the one from the source?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JndAHglEydQ

Second one is taken from the Sony Vegas Pro 10 previewer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP6Az0topsU

To the previous questions, thanks for the links. I believe it's 16:9, and no, the source video nor the one after I rendered is at all letterboxed. But that is currently precisely my goal; I wish for the video to be letterboxed. I do not want it to be windowboxed nor pillarboxed, my goal is for it to be letterboxed.

[poisondeathray]

Did you have a look at the links?

It appears your source is 16:9, and youtube requires 16:9 image because the player window is 16:9 and doesn't allow for custom aspect ratios. That is why the 2nd link looks like it's windowboxed. You uploaded 1500x1080 letterboxed content , but it's being displayed in a 16:9 window, that's why youtube puts pillarboxing around it

[Zamoonda]

Did you have a look at the links?

It appears your source is 16:9, and youtube requires 16:9 image because the player window is 16:9 and doesn't allow for custom aspect ratios. That is why the 2nd link looks like it's windowboxed. You uploaded 1500x1080 letterboxed content , but it's being displayed in a 16:9 window, that's why youtube puts pillarboxing around it

Hold on. But if I don't reduce the size to 1500x1080, it won't be letterboxed either ( see one of my bitrate testing videos, tried to see which bitrate is optimal to download 1080p with no buffering, but without ruining the quality. There's no need to upload it at 16,000,000 bitrate when there's no difference between it and say, 13,000,000 in this video. Or at least, it's very small http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Qq6LoCFd8 ).

I'm almost fully certain it is not naturally letterboxed? In the avi, in youtube, everywhere, it appears that it isn't letterboxed.

[poisondeathray]

Hold on. But if I don't reduce the size to 1500x1080, it won't be letterboxed either ( see one of my bitrate testing videos, tried to see which bitrate is optimal to download 1080p with no buffering, but without ruining the quality. There's no need to upload it at 16,000,000 bitrate when there's no difference between it and say, 13,000,000 in this video. Or at least, it's very small http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Qq6LoCFd8 ).

Buffering has nothing to do with what you do. That is a bandwidth issue. Youtube re-encodes everything using roughly the same bitrate for a given size (so all 1080p videos get roughly the same bitrate). So buffering is either a server bandwidth issue or client bandwidth issue

Having said that there are techniques to improve the end quality that youtube produces. e.g. stabilization, denoising, addint intros/outros , these topics are discussed in other threads

The weak link here is youtube

I'm almost fully certain it is not naturally letterboxed? In the avi, in youtube, everywhere, it appears that it isn't letterboxed.

That's correct, original source appears to be 16:9 content

But if you add a black border to put subs in, it's no longer 16:9. The problem is the viewer youtube uses is 16:9 only, so to preserve the aspect ratio (ie. keep circles looking like circles instead of ovals) it puts pillarboxing in (borders on the left and right). So when you combine your earlier borders, the end effect is windowboxed (borders all around)

[Zamoonda]

Buffering has nothing to do with what you do. That is a bandwidth issue. Youtube re-encodes everything using roughly the same bitrate for a given size (so all 1080p videos get roughly the same bitrate). So buffering is either a server bandwidth issue or client bandwidth issue

That can't be right. I take one 1080p video which takes simply forever to load, and then I load up another 1080p video after I close the other one, which loads extremely fast. If not bitrates, something must be influential to the fact some videos have a far greater file size than others. Or is it simply all comes down the format of which I made it to? If so, what format would you recommend? (Trying right now to play with wmv and mp4, the former has a less filesize from what I've seen, and differences aren't at all noticable, yet it's still 198 MB. If you have any suggestions I'd happily appreciate it. All that matters is that it remains in 1080p)

That's correct, original source appears to be 16:9 content

But if you add a black border to put subs in, it's no longer 16:9. The problem is the viewer youtube uses is 16:9 only, so to preserve the aspect ratio (ie. keep circles looking like circles instead of ovals) it puts pillarboxing in (borders on the left and right). So when you combine your earlier borders, the end effect is windowboxed (borders all around)

So I cannot letterbox in Youtube? It's either regular or windowboxing? If so, that's quite a shame. However thank you very, very much for your time and patience with me! Though if you could answer my first question I'd quite appreciate it!

[poisondeathray]

Buffering has nothing to do with what you do. That is a bandwidth issue. Youtube re-encodes everything using roughly the same bitrate for a given size (so all 1080p videos get roughly the same bitrate). So buffering is either a server bandwidth issue or client bandwidth issue

That can't be right. I take one 1080p video which takes simply forever to load, and then I load up another 1080p video after I close the other one, which loads extremely fast. If not bitrates, something must be influential to the fact some videos have a far greater file size than others. Or is it simply all comes down the format of which I made it to? If so, what format would you recommend? (Trying right now to play with wmv and mp4, the former has a less filesize from what I've seen, and differences aren't at all noticable, yet it's still 198 MB. If you have any suggestions I'd happily appreciate it. All that matters is that it remains in 1080p)

Filesize = bitrate x running time

If you're talking about downloading from youtube, given that youtube re-encodes with approx the same bitrate for the same dimension files (e.g. 720p videos get the same bitrate as other 720p videos) , the difference is probably in the running time . A 1hour movie will be a lot larger than a 1 minute movie at equivalent bitrates

The other factor is bandwidth described above, and the last possible factor is already downloaded videos (you have a cache of previously viewed content)

So I cannot letterbox in Youtube? It's either regular or windowboxing?

You can letterbox, but you would have to crop some image off, and you probably don't want to do that

If you want to know how something will look on youtube, a simple way is to keep everything set at 1920x1080 in vegas, square pixels, including the export. The preview will be representative. You will see that you have to scale the image down in order to fit black borders for your subs, and you will notice there is no way to keep it letterboxed and the same aspect ratio without cropping

[Zamoonda]

Filesize = bitrate x running time

If you're talking about downloading from youtube, given that youtube re-encodes with approx the same bitrate for the same dimension files (e.g. 720p videos get the same bitrate as other 720p videos) , the difference is probably in the running time . A 1hour movie will be a lot larger than a 1 minute movie at equivalent bitrates

The other factor is bandwidth described above, and the last possible factor is already downloaded videos (you have a cache of previously viewed content)

No, not downloading from youtube. Viewing them in youtube. I'm not speaking of bitrate; how would I make each second of the video less size-heavy? The format? What would it be? A 1 GB 1-minute-video would load far slower than a 100 MB 1-minute-video. When I say load, I don't mean finish, I mean buffer faster. Load it up faster, etc, so that I won't be reaching the buffering time.

You can letterbox, but you would have to crop some image off, and you probably don't want to do that

If you want to know how something will look on youtube, a simple way is to keep everything set at 1920x1080 in vegas, square pixels, including the export. The preview will be representative. You will see that you have to scale the image down in order to fit black borders for your subs, and you will notice there is no way to keep it letterboxed and the same aspect ratio without cropping

Yeah. I guess the only viable way is to actually record it with something like the divx interface, and then able to chop away the avi interface in favor for a black bar.

[poisondeathray]

Filesize = bitrate x running time

If you're talking about downloading from youtube, given that youtube re-encodes with approx the same bitrate for the same dimension files (e.g. 720p videos get the same bitrate as other 720p videos) , the difference is probably in the running time . A 1hour movie will be a lot larger than a 1 minute movie at equivalent bitrates

The other factor is bandwidth described above, and the last possible factor is already downloaded videos (you have a cache of previously viewed content)

No, not downloading from youtube. Viewing them in youtube. I'm not speaking of bitrate; how would I make each second of the video less size-heavy? The format? What would it be? A 1 GB 1-minute-video would load far slower than a 100 MB 1-minute-video. When I say load, I don't mean finish, I mean buffer faster. Load it up faster, etc, so that I won't be reaching the buffering time.

Viewing is downloading from youtube. How do you think you are seeing it? Youtube is a progressive download streamer, and files are stored in your temporary internet directory

"Buffer faster" is dependent on bandwidth (client and user), and filesize of the file.

A 1 GB 1-minute-video would load far slower than a 100 MB 1-minute-video.

This is not possible for youtube. They use the same average bitrate for each category (all 1080p videos receive approx. the same bitrate when re-encoded) . So if you look at the equation, all 1 minute videos of the same dimension category, will be the same filesize once youtube has processed it.

So the only other factor is bandwith. Youtube might be clogged, or your connection might suck

You can letterbox, but you would have to crop some image off, and you probably don't want to do that

If you want to know how something will look on youtube, a simple way is to keep everything set at 1920x1080 in vegas, square pixels, including the export. The preview will be representative. You will see that you have to scale the image down in order to fit black borders for your subs, and you will notice there is no way to keep it letterboxed and the same aspect ratio without cropping

Yeah. I guess the only viable way is to actually record it with something like the divx interface, and then able to chop away the avi interface in favor for a black bar.

Yes, you would lose real content for the original video. The other option is to use a custom player or website. The only reason this is happening is because of youtube's player settings, and because youtube re-encodes. If you setup your own player you can have it any aspect ratio or dimensions you want

[Zamoonda]

Viewing is downloading from youtube. How do you think you are seeing it? Youtube is a progressive download streamer, and files are stored in your temporary internet directory

"Buffer faster" is dependent on bandwidth (client and user), and filesize of the file.

Yes of course. And that's what I mean; what type of format would you recommend? The smallest possible that still supports 1080p?


[quote]This is not possible for youtube. They use the same average bitrate for each category (all 1080p videos receive approx. the same bitrate when re-encoded) . So if you look at the equation, all 1 minute videos of the same dimension category, will be the same filesize once youtube has processed it.

So the only other factor is bandwith. Youtube might be clogged, or your connection might suck
[quote]

So you're saying a 1080p picture of a white circle moving around is the same filesize of say, Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides in 1080p? (say, fifteen seconds of each) It cannot be that youtube might be clogged or my connection might suck; I've looked at one video, and then I looked at another, five seconds between each other, and the first took an extremely long while to load, whereas the second this was not the case. I'm not speaking of bitrates; I stopped talking about bitrates a long time ago. I am speaking of the file format; i.e., mp4, mpg, wav, wmv and co.

Yes, you would lose real content for the original video. The other option is to use a custom player or website. The only reason this is happening is because of youtube's player settings, and because youtube re-encodes. If you setup your own player you can have it any aspect ratio or dimensions you want

Mhm, aye.

[poisondeathray]

So you're saying a 1080p picture of a white circle moving around is the same filesize of say, Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides in 1080p? (say, fifteen seconds of each) It cannot be that youtube might be clogged or my connection might suck; I've looked at one video, and then I looked at another, five seconds between each other, and the first took an extremely long while to load, whereas the second this was not the case. I'm not speaking of bitrates; I stopped talking about bitrates a long time ago. I am speaking of the file format; i.e., mp4, mpg, wav, wmv and co.

You're talking about watching on youtube right? The file format is the same for HD video when youtube re-encodes it. It's all h.264/aac/mp4. The other formats - mpg, wav, wmv, etc... are not used

Well, you should talk about bitrates, because that's the key to everything. The same average bitrate is used for youtube given the same category, but if the content is a black screen or something simple, it takes very little bitrate to encode and the bitrate will be lower, thus filesize will be lower (at least for that local section). Remember filesize= bitrate x running time . Lower complexity content , less motion, requires less bitrate. Something like explosion will require more bitrate than a blank screen. So 15 seconds of blank screen will be a lot smaller than 15 seconds of explosion . A smaller file will load faster than a larger file. For bitrates on youtbe, you can go lower, but you can't go higher. That's why the quality sucks on youtube. You probably need 10Mb/s for decent quality on high complexity content, but it only allocates 3-4Mb/s

This is why people denoise , stabilize and prepare their footage, it takes less bitrate for a certain level of "quality". You can look in other threads for more detail

[Zamoonda]

[QUOTE

You're talking about watching on youtube right? The file format is the same for HD video when youtube re-encodes it. It's all h.264/aac/mp4. The other formats - mpg, wav, wmv, etc... are not used[/quote]

When I looked at the recommended file types, it said clearly that Youtube supports WMV format.

The same average bitrate is used for youtube given the same category, but if the content is a black screen or something simple, it takes very little bitrate to encode and the bitrate will be lower, thus filesize will be lower (at least for that local section). Remember filesize= bitrate x running time . Lower complexity content , less motion, requires less bitrate. Something like explosion will require more bitrate

This is why people denoise , stabilize and prepare their footage, it takes less bitrate for a certain level of "quality". You can look in other threads for more detail

Hrmmn; very well then. My thanks, it's right here in this forum under Editing, I assume. Thanks a lot for your time and patience! Though I can't quite find anything quite yet. If you have a bit few more seconds of your time to spare and link me a thread, I'd heavily appreciate it.

[poisondeathray]

You're talking about watching on youtube right? The file format is the same for HD video when youtube re-encodes it. It's all h.264/aac/mp4. The other formats - mpg, wav, wmv, etc... are not used

When I looked at the recommended file types, it said clearly that Youtube supports WMV format.

WMV is supported for uploading TO youtube; but when it's processed (youtube re-encodes everything) it becomes h.264/aac/mp4 . It's not streaming WMV.

Any video you upload => DECODED by youtube => ENCODED to another format by youtube

Thanks a lot for your time and patience! Though I can't quite find anything quite yet. If you have a bit few more seconds of your time to spare and link me a thread, I'd heavily appreciate it.

Search for "optimizing youtube encodes", not just this forum, other forums have information as well. The basic principle is youtbe is the weak link. It re-encodes everything with a low bitrate. So to optimize, you need to use some "tricks" to get the most of long GOP compression, such as stabilizing and denoising

Even if you uploaded the original huge source, it still looks like garbage when uploaded to youtube , right ? That's because of the low bitrate that youtube re-encodes with

[Zamoonda]

WMV is supported for uploading TO youtube; but when it's processed (youtube re-encodes everything) it becomes h.264/aac/mp4 . It's not streaming WMV.

Any video you upload => DECODED by youtube => ENCODED to another format by youtube

Aaah, that makes perfect sense then! Thanks!

Search for "optimizing youtube encodes", not just this forum, other forums have information as well. The basic principle is youtbe is the weak link. It re-encodes everything with a low bitrate. So to optimize, you need to use some "tricks" to get the most of long GOP compression, such as stabilizing and denoising

Aah, thank you. Optimizing youtube encodes; thanks a lot!