[Help Request] Sony Vegas 10 Pro, AVC/H.264 Encoding

[lindenkron]

Evening deadrats, thanks for your reply.

I don't really use Sony Vegas because I want to - more like because I have to. It's very user friendly and quite easy to learn. I don't have much patience with having to learn every little thing, spending hours on doing so, when I know I can do it in 3 seconds using Vegas. I do hate the vegas rendering - would be better if there was a way to uncompressed spit out the edited movies and then render it using some advanced rendering programs designed for that specific purpose... but then again, I'm quite ignorant when it comes to all of this. So basically I'm just trying to optimize it to the best of my(which then became Videohelp.com's) abilities.

Little question that I have wondered - seen it a few times - "how many threads you want" - I saw this option under Preferences in Vegas as well "Maximum numbers of rendering threads" what exactly does this mean/do?

Thanks for your time!

[deadrats]

Little question that I have wondered - seen it a few times - "how many threads you want" - I saw this option under Preferences in Vegas as well "Maximum numbers of rendering threads" what exactly does this mean/do?

when someone says "thread" they usually mean a sequence of related instructions, the more threads you have the more spread out the execution of a given task is (this is a very simplified explanation).

as a general rule of thumb, depending on the cpu architecture, with video encoding you should see maximum performance if you set the number of thread to 1.5x the number of physical cores. with hyper-threaded cpu's i would set it to 2x the number of physical cores.

[lindenkron]

when someone says "thread" they usually mean a sequence of related instructions, the more threads you have the more spread out the execution of a given task is (this is a very simplified explanation).

as a general rule of thumb, depending on the cpu architecture, with video encoding you should see maximum performance if you set the number of thread to 1.5x the number of physical cores. with hyper-threaded cpu's i would set it to 2x the number of physical cores.

Alright, it is set to 8, and I'm running Quad core hyperthreading (Even though it shows 8 virtual cores). So I guess that's the right settings

@poison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JvB9STCYN0

We shot this two days ago, I know there's a LOT of lighting issues, but we had no PC to check the footage on at the time of shooting, and we were kind of in a studio that wasn't ours - so was limited time. But it's with the new settings I got from you guys. Tell me if you can find any major issues before publishing it. Thanks mate

Thanks!

[budwzr]

Looks great to me. Nice work.

[lindenkron]

Looks great to me. Nice work.

Thanks, but oh noes... Just looked at it on 1080p, and there's lines all over the place... arghhh. 720p looks good to me though...Halp! :>

Example:
http://i52.tinypic.com/29c554z.jpg

[edDV]

Looks great to me. Nice work.

Thanks, but oh noes... Just looked at it on 1080p, and there's lines all over the place... arghhh. 720p looks good to me though...Halp! :>

Example:
http://i52.tinypic.com/29c554z.jpg

That picture shows improperly resized interlace video.

[lindenkron]

That picture shows improperly resized interlace video.

I haven't resized it? It's 1920x1080 25i...

[edDV]

That picture shows improperly resized interlace video.

I haven't resized it? It's 1920x1080 25i...

The JPG reports 1,599px × 998px

Anyway, ignoring the resize issue, it appears to be blend deinterlaced.

How are you capturing the still?

[poisondeathray]

The 1080 version on youtube suggests you didn't deinterlace it before exporting . Check your render settings

You also botched the framerate , there are inserted frames (I think you did the 29,97 mistake again)

[lindenkron]

The JPG reports 1,599px × 998px

Anyway, ignoring the resize issue, it appears to be blend deinterlaced.

How are you capturing the still?

Yes that's because my screen resolution is 1650x1080 - That shouldn't change how the movie is previewed though... Watching any HD movies on this screen have never given me such lines before.

The 1080 version on youtube suggests you didn't deinterlace it before exporting . Check your render settings

You also botched the framerate , there are inserted frames (I think you did the 29,97 mistake again)

It's 25,000 (PAL). I didn't deinterlace before exporting, what you mean? - It's set to Interpolate field, isn't that the right one?

/confused

[poisondeathray]

you should usually keep the same project settings, and they usually match whatever source footage you are using as input. In your case it would be 1920x1080i50 (or 1920x1080i25 , they mean the same thing)

Another reason you want to do this, is you have the option to export different formats from the same project. For example, DVD, or ipod, or blu-ray , from the same project without having to redo the entire project. The project settings stay the same. Only the EXPORT SETTINGS usually change for typical projects

general deinterlacer in vegas is not activated, unless you select progressive in the export settings (internally, vegas still has the project has 1920x1080i50 , so this means you have access to all the data from both fields, this means you can get better slow motion for example) . The resizing (if applicable) and deinterlacing occurs in the export stage

what likely happened is your export settings were 29.97, interlaced

you should have entered 25 fps, progressive

it's a good habit to preview your exports, before uploading to sites or shipping off to other people. This will prevent lots of problems farther on, and if problems do occur, it's easier to debug - if you know your export was perfect, and youtube video had errors, you know it's not your fault (problem was introduced later on in the chain of events). You also waste less time (if you pick up the error earlier, you don't waste time uploading a bad file)

[lindenkron]

you should usually keep the same project settings, and they usually match whatever source footage you are using as input. In your case it would be 1920x1080i50 (or 1920x1080i25 , they mean the same thing)

general deinterlacer in vegas is not activated, unless you select progressive in the export settings

what likely happened is your export settings were 29.97, interlaced

you should have entered 25 fps, progressive

Okay, now you guys confuse me.

I was told earlier to have 1920x1080 25i as my render setting / export setting. Which is what I have. Now you're telling me it should be 25p ? :O

And no, my export settings weren't 29.97, it was 25

[edDV]

you should usually keep the same project settings, and they usually match whatever source footage you are using as input. In your case it would be 1920x1080i50 (or 1920x1080i25 , they mean the same thing)

general deinterlacer in vegas is not activated, unless you select progressive in the export settings

what likely happened is your export settings were 29.97, interlaced

you should have entered 25 fps, progressive

Okay, now you guys confuse me.

I was told earlier to have 1920x1080 25i as my render setting / export setting. Which is what I have. Now you're telling me it should be 25p ? :O

And no, my export settings weren't 29.97, it was 25

Normal would be project = source or 1080 50i

Export for Youtube should be 1080 25p h.264

The 30 fps conversion may be done in YouTube recode. I've never posed 25p to Youtube.

Or it could be the player.

[poisondeathray]

Everything you export for web should be progressive.

If you are sure you entered 25, not 29.97, then the error might be Youtube's fault. It might have gotten confused from the interlaced file or something with the metadata. The fact is the file hosted on youtube is NOT 25fps, that's why there are extra frames

Try 1920x1080p25 , and I bet those 2 problems will go away

Even try on a smaller test first (e.g. render 20 seconds using render region)

[budwzr]

Like I mentioned a long time ago, stick with 720p30 and you're good to go everywhere except grandma's TV.

[poisondeathray]

Like I mentioned a long time ago, stick with 720p30 and you're good to go everywhere except grandma's TV.

That will introduce either jerky footage, or blurry jerks, because his source is 1080i50

720p25 would be the "equivalent" for him

[edDV]

Like I mentioned a long time ago, stick with 720p30 and you're good to go everywhere except grandma's TV.

Not with 50i source.

[budwzr]

Like I mentioned a long time ago, stick with 720p30 and you're good to go everywhere except grandma's TV.

Not with 50i source.

Right, right, right, forgot again.

But isn't that footage THEY shot?

So the cameras over there shoot that fakkakta frame rate?

[lindenkron]

Everything you export for web should be progressive.

If you are sure you entered 25, not 29.97, then the error might be Youtube's fault. It might have gotten confused from the interlaced file or something with the metadata. The fact is the file hosted on youtube is NOT 25fps, that's why there are extra frames

Try 1920x1080p25 , and I bet those 2 problems will go away

Even try on a smaller test first (e.g. render 20 seconds using render region)

100% sure I did. It's in the settings and I haven't touched it since we made it. So 50i = 25p? In which case, I'll try 25p instead of the 25i . Will try a small clip first!

Right, right, right, forgot again.

But isn't that footage THEY shot?

So the cameras over there shoot that fakkakta frame rate?

Don't blame me, I think it's low frame rate shooting anything under 60 . Gief slowmotion options, meh

[lindenkron]

The progressive output seems to have done the trick!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXEYx5mJKHA

Any quality being reduced from going p on i footage?

Thanks!

[poisondeathray]

So 50i = 25p? In which case, I'll try 25p instead of the 25i

no, 50i is 50 fields per second 25 frames per second

when you enter 25p, it discards half the fields then resizes them to full size

Don't blame me, I think it's low frame rate shooting anything under 60 . Gief slowmotion options, meh

You can do decent slo mo in certain shots with avisynth or AE, twixtor etc..,, using interpolation

Vegas is limited, you can only to 25% speed per run (you have to reimport and reapply for slower slo mo)

With interlaced footage, you have 4 setting to chose from:

blend deinterlace, resample on
blend deinterlace, resample off
interpolate deinterlace, resample on
interpolate detinterlace, resample off

for smooth slo mo, usually blend and resample on works best, but its blurry. The other options are too jerky (because they insert dupes)

All the little tips and tricks add up to better quality, but once you upload to youtube it might only be a small difference. Remember Youtbe is the "great equalizer"

Any quality being reduced from going p on i footage?

Yes, deinterlacing reduces quality, that's why you ideally want to shoot progressive for internet.

Deinterlacing is a big topic. There are high quality and low quality deinterlacers. Higher quality algorithms reduce quality less. Vegas isn't that great at deinterlacing

[edDV]

I learned several things about 1080 25p result on Youtube. Particularly 25p playback and 3891 kbps (5017 max) VBR bit rate.

What bit rate did you send them?

Mediainfo on clip

General
Complete name : \897118c799892870.mp4.flv
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 8.01 MiB
Duration : 16s 600ms
Overall bit rate : 4 048 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2011-06-30 19:26:21
Tagged date : UTC 2011-06-30 19:26:21
gsst : 0
gstd : 16600
gssd : BADC20C05HH1309551055389277
gshh : o-o.preferred.lax04s07.v5.nonxt5.c.youtube.com

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=25
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 16s 600ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 891 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 5 017 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.075
Stream size : 7.70 MiB (96%)
Tagged date : UTC 2011-06-30 19:26:21

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 16s 556ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 152 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 161 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 307 KiB (4%)
Title : IsoMedia File Produced by Google, 5-11-2011
Encoded date : UTC 2011-06-30 19:26:21
Tagged date : UTC 2011-06-30 19:26:21

[edDV]

Vegas' interpolate deinterlace produces some odd shape distortion during fast motion but IMO looks better than the double vision that blend deinterlace produces. Both fields are being used in the interpolation.

[lindenkron]

@edDV my settings say:
Bit rate (bps): 10.000.000

Also, using these settings the 4 minute movie ended up being 290MB in filesize, which seems extreme to me haha, but I don't know...

Vegas' interpolate deinterlace produces some odd shape distortion during fast motion but IMO looks better than the double vision that blend deinterlace produces.

Ye, you can't expect more when only having 25 frames per second though, can you :P

I've uploaded both now,

1920x1080 25i
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JvB9STCYN0

1920x1080 25p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPcR1QcI220

Any expert opinions on it?

I'm not quite sure, but it seems that after it's been uploaded the audio is 1-3 frames behind the video.. it doesn't seem as "on track" as it does when running the video on my PC. Anyone else feels the audio is a bit slow?

Edit: I also uploaded the video with 48hz sound (I was told to do so by the producer of the song), but according to those datas, youtube also nerfed that to 44.1 =/ - Could this be why the sync is off? DOH

Thanks all

[edDV]

The reason you don't want 25i is the line split during horizontal motion. It is highly visible to the viewer and unnatural. Deinterlace converts this line split into more natural motion. YouTube apparently does not deinterlace at native resolution.



more later ...

[lindenkron]

So any other expert opinions, edDV for example?

Thanks!

[lindenkron]

Bump.

[edDV]

Independence Day holiday here. Happy July 4th!

The 25p version looks good to me considering the workflow from 1080 50i AVCHD via Vegas Pro (interpolative deinterlace) followed by Youtube recode. Looks much better than your previous Youtube selections which show blend deinterlace artifacts. The 25i version is unexceptable for the reasons stated.

Haven't had time to evaluate the Youtube 720p, 480p downsizes.

If Youtube is the goal rather than best HDTV display, then you should consider shooting 25p.

[davexnet]

I've had a devil of a time processing the 00000.mts that was posted.
The source filter doesn't return clean fields or frames consistently. I've had distortion, backwards/forwards motion,
and duplicate frames.

I've tried directshowsource, dss2 , ffmpegvideo & DGAVCindex. I've yet to try DGindexNV (I haven't purchased the license).

I've seen some mention in this thread of symptoms that seem similar. One of the participants mention DGindexNV/DGdecodeNV as
serving the file properly (They were also working with interlaced MTS)
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1492346#post1492346

[poisondeathray]

I don't have any 60 FPS footage, no - that's our current issue when wanting to create slowmotion that isn't laggy . We only have a $500 camcorder at the moment.

I was hoping there was another decent way to make slowmotion footage without having to have a camera that can record 60FPS, swing and a miss. So AAE uses Vectors to try and "create an extra image" that would fit between two other images - guessing where the next pixel will be? - Otherwise I can't see how this differs from the blending method :P

Well like I said earlier, you have 50i footage, so if you bob deinterlace it that's 50p (clean "real frames" footage if you do it properly)

You can use avisynth filters from mvtools2 to interpolate frames. Here is an example of 8x slow mo (or 200 FPS simulated)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxD3KNGpWQs&hd=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtsNYpHKqGs&hd=1