HD - DVD = Movie flicker or something

[Electric Blue]

Hi

I'm making a DVD with my HD movies. I got a problem, the video flicker or something in some scenes. Maybe you will see it if you look at this video in WMP: http://www.2shared.com/file/3Dj5gXAr/HC_online.html

I also want you to take a look at this. Is it a good resize? I want to do one 16:9 and one 4:3 video for those with an old TV.

16:9
---------------------------
AviSource("C:\001.avi")
LanczosResize(704,576)
AddBorders(8,0,8,0)

4:3
---------------------------
AviSource("C:\001.avi")
LanczosResize(720,432)
AddBorders(0,72,0,72)


Info about the original HD movie. But I have edited this one and exported as a lossy avi.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 71.3 MiB
Duration : 12s 880ms
Overall bit rate : 46.5 Mbps

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Baseline@L5.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 12s 880ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 44.9 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Original height : 1 088 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Original display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.866
Stream size : 69.0 MiB (97%)
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M

[poisondeathray]

Are you referring to the flickering details in the ground ?

Did the original have it? I suspect it did, it's probably aliasing from the original footage, and my guess would be this originally DLSR footage

A sharp resizer (lanczos) doesn't help this, it makes things worse. The spatial frequencies are too high. The first thing you should try is a more neutral resizer, like bicubicresize, or even bilinearresize. If you apply a small vertical blur, it improves this e.g. blur(0,0.5) , but try a softer resizer first

You can use QTGMC's progressive mode with low sharpness settings to stabilize the flickering in those scenes that have it. If only certain areas have, apply it through masks

There is also a slight luminance change that might be contributing to the flickering. You might use deflicker() or donald graft's deflicker in vdub

Also what shutter settings did you use? I suspect they were quite high

[Electric Blue]

Are you referring to the flickering details in the ground ?

Yes.

Did the original have it? I suspect it did, it's probably aliasing from the original footage, and my guess would be this originally DLSR footage

The original is from a DSLR. Used it to be like that? I think it's when moving the camera. I don't see it much at all on the original. Look at this XviD: http://www.2shared.com/video/Cvnn-XFF/1_online.html

A sharp resizer (lanczos) doesn't help this, it makes things worse

Ok, maybe that's the reason why it looks much worse than the original.

You can use QTGMC's progressive mode with low sharpness settings to stabilize the flickering in those scenes that have it. If only certain areas have, apply it through masks

I'm not that advanced. I need a guide in that case. I thougt it just was a simple encoder setting. My movies looks great on the computer. Maybe it's not a good idea burning DVDs with HD material from a DSLR. But if I don't move the camera when recording in the future it maybe works better.

[poisondeathray]

I made some edits to the post above, make sure you check them out

So try a softer resizer first, like bilinearresize()

You can also apply a blur(0,0.5) , or one of the other suggestions. These 2 are both easy to add to your script

Fine details aren't handled very well on DVD, and DSLR's (especially Canon and Nikons) have lots of problems aliasing

Look at this XviD: http://www.2shared.com/video/Cvnn-XFF/1_online.html

It's definitely there. It's probably even worse in the original file (xvid compression will have thrown away some of the detail). Examine that file frame by frame and look at the shifting in the fine details in the ground. There shouldn't be any movement. (The camera is moving, but the little leaves and edges and details shouldn't be moving). That's aliasing and false detail. This actually is relatively minor example.... I can show you much more drastic examples

[Electric Blue]

Now I have burned a DVD with a bicubicresize video and a bilinearresize video. It's better than before but I loose sharpness. Maybe I prefer the sharp resizer.

I haven't tried deflicker.

It's a Canon DSLR. I don't remember the shutter settings. There's no info in the .MOV file and I don't know if I could find it in the .THM file. But maybe I used Aperture priority like the pictures. In that case it's probably too high shutter speed. I think I get the best results with 1/50 or 1/60. So I think I made a mistake. Manual settings is preferable.

[poisondeathray]

I'm 100% sure the primary problem is the aliasing and moire patterns . You have to fix that, but most Anti-Aliasing filters will blur the heck out of it.

Sharp edges accentuate the moire and aliasing patterns. This makes the flicker worse. You should dial down the detail and sharpness in camera. Wide shots are the worst conditions for this aliasing.

If you prefer the sharpness, then you have to live with the flicker. Processing it with QTGMC on the HD footage before downscaling should provide better results (less flicker, and more sharpness)

Luminance deflicker filters and algorithms won't fix this. It's not a primary luminance fluctuation problem.

What's happening is the little aliasing points have been downscaled when you make a dvd, so hundreds of little points are shimmering which create that flicker effect. It's the frame to frame difference in those aliased jaggy edges that cause this effect

[Electric Blue]

I use max sharpness in camera. That's not good when editing. I think I also used wide aperture to blur the background.


I burned and compared this:

AviSource("C:\001.avi")
Spline36Resize(704,576)
AddBorders(8,0,8,0)

AviSource("C:\001.avi")
QTGMC( Preset="Very Fast" )
SelectEven()
Spline36Resize(704,576)
AddBorders(8,0,8,0)


Little less flickering with QTGMC but not that sharp like without. I should also compare on an old TV.

[jagabo]

Your video is way too sharp. Look at any broadcast video or DVD. Nothing is sharp like your sample. You have to use BilinearResize() or Blur() for a more natural look. End of story.

[poisondeathray]

QTGMC is supposed to use inputtype=1 for progressive content, and only the slower presets work ok on DSLR aliasing. You should be using low sharpness settings, or the flickering will come back

e.g. What I typically use for 7D footage on sections that need it:
QTGMC(preset="very slow", inputtype=1, sharpness=0.2)

You will get better results than just blurring the entire image, because the anti-aliasing effect is applied through masks and motion compensation. Areas that need it are affected the most . When downscaling for DVD you still need to low pass it (or use a soft resize). But I think your expectations are not realistic for DSLR footage.

What you're seeing is not even real detail or real sharpness. What you are looking at is aliased edges = false detail. When you measure the actual resolution, Canon DSLRs barely resolve 600lines of resolution. The rest are moire patterns. I would hesitate to call it "HD" footage.

The reason is DSLRs subsample lines. The sensor is too big, 20+ MP, and the processor isnt fast enough to do a real resize (it overheats as it is). So they line skip by taking every nth line. The end result is like a bad deinterlace job where you have missing lines, and stair stepping = aliasing. The Canon DSLR's lack an optical low pass filter (OLPF), so high frequency detail isn't prefiltered out before it hits the sensor

You can have a fairly sharp picture (real resolution) , but not with this camera. Those downscaled jaggy edges alternate on frames to yield that flickering effect. It's more obvious when you shoot straight objects, like a picket fence, or a brick wall.

I use max sharpness in camera.

Most pro DSLR shooters use lowest sharpness settings, avoid wide shots like this, avoid shooting things with lines (like brick walls), and defocus the image. Use shallow DoF with close up shots

[Electric Blue]

HCenc doesn't work well with Placebo.

I think some professionals using this camera. And they got really good results.

[poisondeathray]

HCenc doesn't work well with Placebo.

I think some professionals using this camera. And they got really good results.

You can use a lossless intermediate, instead of using a script directly into HCEnc (e.g. apply the filters to a huffyuv intermediate, or lagarith, or ut video codec)

Yes, you can get great results, but low resolution and only certain types of shots. They use the tips I mentioned above (I edited my post above), and blur it in post to get rid of the aliasing. They avoid shots like this and others which are prone to DSLR aliasing. They use anti moire filters (e.g. caprock filters) when you need to do wide shots, or use other cameras instead for these types of shots.

You can find the exact same information I mentioned above on DSLR blogs and forums.

[Electric Blue]

After I edited the movie I exported as a lossless Ut Video (because it's faster than huffyuv and lagarith). But how to use a script like QTGMC(preset="very slow", inputtype=1, sharpness=0.2) on my Ut video avi without HCenc? Do I need another software to do this?

[poisondeathray]

After I edited the movie I exported as a lossless Ut Video (because it's faster than huffyuv and lagarith). But how to use a script like QTGMC(preset="very slow", inputtype=1, sharpness=0.2) on my Ut video avi without HCenc? Do I need another software to do this?

You can use virtualdub to load the .avs script, then encode to another UT Video

Set video=>fast recompress , video=> compression (select UT), audio=> direct stream copy, file=> save as avi

Then use that exported avi as input into HCEnc

Another reason you want to do this is slow filters are applied only once instead of twice for a 2pass HCenc encode

It's important to use the filters on the HD footage (when you resize to SD, the spatial relationships are different). So apply the filters, then resize to SD. I would still use bicubic at the most (bilinear probably better), spline36 produces only slightly less ringing than lanczos3 (ie. still is fairly sharp)

[Electric Blue]

Ok I tried with wrong virtualdub version. With 32bit version it worked. But I got the same message lika HCenc when using QTGMC. Something like msvcr71dll is missing. I downloaded the file and added to the virtualdub folder. Then no errors anymore. Before I did the same with HCenc.

But it takes forever to render. I tried with only a 3min video. Estimated time 8h. Is this normal? I have an AMD Phenom2 X4 940 3.0GHz. Video rendering rate 0,16 fps.

[poisondeathray]

"very slow" means very slow It's not well multithreaded, you can modify the script to use MT, but it's not stable in my experience


You might be able to get away with something like "slow" or "slower" instead. I find any setting faster than "slow" doesn't work well. YMMV

I usually only apply it to sections that need it. Not everything has aliasing. If you've done close up shots of objects, people, faces, etc... that don't have straight edges, then it's likely there are no problems there. You can use Trim() to divide up the script into sections and apply it only there. This will speed it up significantly. I actually use Crop() and Overlay() to cut and paste sections, it's even faster. But it depends on how your shot is setup and what areas have that problem

I think most people would just use globally blur those sections.

[Electric Blue]

If I want to render 1h movie I think it takes at least one week Yeah it's just some scenes that have the problem. I want to leave the good scenes as it is.

For example if I want to blur frame 1-144 and 1375-2500. How to do this with Trim() or Crop() and Overlay()?

Maybe like this?
Trim(0,144)+Trim(1375,2500)
blur(0,0.5)

[poisondeathray]

a=AVISource()
b=somefilter

a.trim(0,144).b ++ a.trim(145,1374) ++ a.trim(1375,2500).b

[Gavino]

I know what you mean, pdr, but the way you've written it is a bit unclear.
I would do it like this:

a=AVISource()
b=a.Blur(...) #or whatever

b.trim(0,144) ++ a.trim(145,1374) ++ b.trim(1375,2500) ++ a.trim(2501,0)

[poisondeathray]

sorry my bad

Thanks gavino

[Electric Blue]

I don't know what's wrong but..

This works:
a.trim(0,144).b ++ a.trim(145,1374) ++ a.trim(1375,2500).b

But not this:
b.trim(0,144) ++ a.trim(145,1374) ++ b.trim(1375,2500) ++ a.trim(2501,0)

[poisondeathray]

post your entire script . What did you define "b" as ?

[Electric Blue]

a=AVISource(G:\Adobe Premiere Pro\Videos\test\a1.avi)
b=blur(0,0.5)

blur(0,0.5).trim(0,144) ++ AVISource(G:\Adobe Premiere Pro\Videos\test\a1.avi).trim(145,1374) ++ blur(0,0.5).trim(1375,2500) ++ AVISource(G:\Adobe Premiere Pro\Videos\test\a1.avi).trim(2501,0)

[poisondeathray]

a=AVISource(G:\Adobe Premiere Pro\Videos\test\a1.avi)
b=blur(0,0.5)

blur(0,0.5).trim(0,144) ++ AVISource(G:\Adobe Premiere Pro\Videos\test\a1.avi).trim(145,1374) ++ blur(0,0.5).trim(1375,2500) ++ AVISource(G:\Adobe Premiere Pro\Videos\test\a1.avi).trim(2501,0)

"b" isn't even used in that script. Forget what I wrote above, I would do it gavino's way, it's more logical. If you want to fix what you wrote there, just delete the b=blur(0,0.5) line



What I should have originally wrote was: (or replace blur(0.0.5) with some other filter)

a=avisource()
a.trim(0,144).blur(0,0.5) ++ a.trim(145,1374) ++ a.trim(1375,2500).blur(0,0.5) ++ a.trim(2501,0)

[Electric Blue]

It doesn't work. Error on line 1 column 14.

[poisondeathray]

You need full pathnames with quotes if the video is in different directory as the .avs

a=AVISource("G:\Adobe Premiere Pro\Videos\test\a1.avi")
a.trim(0,144).blur(0,0.5) ++ a.trim(145,1374) ++ a.trim(1375,2500).blur(0,0.5) ++ a.trim(2501,0)

If the avs script is in the same directory as the video , you don't need full pathname

[Electric Blue]

It works! The script is in the same directory as the video but it seems like I always have to use quotes.

Now I have to decide which filter to use on the bad parts. QTGMC, blur or something else. Maybe I'll try this:
QTGMC(preset="slow", inputtype=1, sharpness=0.2)

I really appreciate all the answers poisondeathray. I wish I would be as good as you Big thanks!