Full Frame TBC

[mayhampixi]

I was looking for the best cheapest full frame TBC
I am a little confused i read some posts saying a line TBC is different to a full frame TBC...
This says its full frame but it also says 400 lines..

Is this any good?
Do you suggest a different one?
thanx
I came accross this on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Video-Time-Base-Corrector-Synchronizer-Color-Corrector-/250...item3a52bd101f
Video Inputs S-Video input x 1
Composite video input x 1Video Outputs S-Video output x 1
Composite video output x 1Correction Range Full Frame Time Base CorrectionInput Video System Support NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, PAL, PAL-M, PAL-N and SECAMSampling Frequency Y: 13.5 Mhz
R-Y: 6.75 Mhz
B-Y: 6.75 MhzDigital Code Bit Y: 8 bits
R-Y: 8 bits
B-Y: 8 bitsFrequency Response Time 400 linesColor Processing Control Brightness/Contrast/Color/Sharpness/TintS/N Ratio 50 dBSystem Memory 6M bitsPower Supply 110V-240V AC In with 12V DC 1A Out

[mayhampixi]

What about a capture card PCI straight into the computer?

Datavideo TBC-100 Time Base Corrector

PCI Single Channel Full-Frame 4:2:2 Time Base Corrector

[classfour]

I use Hauppauge cards. TBC-100 is in an external enclosure for use when needed. Elite Video BVP-4 Plus also on standby.

Playback on Panasonic AG-1980 or one of 4 other VCRs.

The Hauppauge cards do not care about CGMS or Copyright protection from what I've seen. They also record without taxing the CPU, and direct to an MPG2 file (DVD compliant).

Others like other capture cards - no problem with that.

As I'm usually capturing from a VHS source, you really can't capture with HD quality.

If someone out there can, without re-encoding the source and cleaning it up: Let me know.

[classfour]

mayhampixi: One thing that I did not clarify is this: The DataVideo TBC-100 PCI card is not a capture card.

1. It installs in the PCI slot ONLY as a mounting point. (That's why I was able to mount one in an external enclosure and power it from the 12V PSU)

http://www.datavideo.us/files/TBC100.pdf

It is the same in performance as the TBC-100 (standalone model).

In either configuration (PC or external enclosure - $20 or so US online) it's a nice card.

[sanlyn]

I was looking for the best cheapest full frame TBC
I am a little confused i read some posts saying a line TBC is different to a full frame TBC...
This says its full frame but it also says 400 lines..

Is this any good?
Do you suggest a different one?
thanx
I came accross this on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Video-Time-Base-Corrector-Synchronizer-Color-Corrector-/250...item3a52bd101f

The TBC pictured is the AVT-8710 frame-level TBC, which is a very clean unit, a favorite around here, and used by pros. I preferred it to the TBC-100, which seemed to me to be softening the image. But there are plenty of people who like it.

I don't know where the "400 lines" comes from. IF your input is 720x480 NTSC or 640x480, etc., (or PAL formats), that's what the 8710 puts out. Usually it will automatically detect characteristics of your source, but you can always set it yourself. It has a few simple image controls, and they work well even if a bit touchy to use with the button arrangement you see pictured.

The AVT-8710 is manufactured to various specifications. The "standard" pro unit is sold here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/276891-REG/AV_Toolbox_AVT_8710_AVT_8710_Multi_St...Time_Base.html
B&H is an excellent seller, guarantees their products, and caters to the professional market in New York and elsewhere. Their price varies almost monthly. I've seen them sell this unit for $175. If anything goes wrong, B&H is very easy to deal with. High-rated eBay sellers are usually reliable, but if you have to return anything it's still a hassle. I've had good luck there most of the time, but on one or two rare occasions I spent 2 months getting a small glitch straightened out. Your choice.

The AVT-8710 is also the best composite-to-s-video converter I've ever seen, bar none, if you happen to need that functionality. You can input composite and output s-video, which some TBC's won't allow without dire results.

[orsetto]

Living in Australia, you might have less choice of TBC options than North America or Europe.

As Samlyn noted, the TBC you linked to on eBay is the popular AVT-8710. Since that seller is in California USA there is no advantage in buying from them, at that price you should probably purchase thru an authorized USA dealer like B&H Photo Video. You might also check your local A/V dealers for the CBT100, a version of the AVT8710 sold in Europe and other countries: buying local would save considerably on shipping costs.

Really there are only three current "affordable" full-frame TBCs optimized for VHS/Beta digitizing: this AVT8710 (and its various clones around the world), the external DataVideo TBC1000 and its PC-card twin the TBC100. All involve compromises in ultimate video quality and all have substantial sample-to-sample unit variation: the AVT8710 is equally loved and hated depending on luck of the draw, ditto the DataVideo products. The DataVideos are a bit sturdier overall but the AVT is cheaper, smaller, has more dealers, is easier to ship internationally, and includes a few handy (but fiddly) picture adjustments. Unless you get an extremely good deal (under $60) on a local unit you can pick up without shipping, avoid the larger older professional rack-mount TBCs found on eBay: these tend to be very worn out and less optimal for VHS/Beta use. Of the second-hand pro models, the Hotronic AP41 has the best rep for VHS/Beta: skip old TBCs from I. Den, Prime Image, Panasonic and Sony.

[sanlyn]

Nice summary on all the choices, orsetto. Thanks for the clarification.

[edDV]

...
I don't know where the "400 lines" comes from. IF your input is 720x480 NTSC or 640x480, etc., (or PAL formats), that's what the 8710 puts out....

"400 Lines" of horizontal resolution is a classic measurement of analog frequency response as read off the vertical wedges of an EIA resolution chart. Nothing to do with pixels or scan lines. It is the point where alternating black and white lines merge to gray. 400 lines is about the limit of SVHS. Analog NTSC broadcast tops out around 330 lines of horizontal resolution due to 4.2 MHz luminance rolloff. VHS is around 240 lines due to 3 MHz rolloff. 704x480 4:3 ATSC digital broadcast resolves to about 540 lines of horizontal resolution. 704x576 4:3 DVB is similar.




PS: Some conclusions you can draw from this spec explains why 4:3 DVD at 540 lines of horizontal resolution looks so much better than 330 line NTSC broadcast even though they both are 480i. But 16:9 has a resolution cost. When you horizontally stretch 720 to ~853 for 16:9 wide, the center circle scales proportionately. So 540 drops by 720/853 to about 455 lines of horizontal resolution in wide mode.


ISO_12233_chart

[jagabo]

"400 Lines" of horizontal resolution is a classic measurement of analog frequency response

Here's an example measuring the chroma resolution of VHS:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1981589

The page before has the full images and graphs:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1980652

[mayhampixi]

Awesome thankyou so much!
I am starting to understand things more and more now!
Thankyou for all your inputs, the AVT-8710 seems like a good choice, and not too expencive.
BH Photo shipps to AU so i think ill go with them!
Yeah everything ill capture would be PAL Video 8 and VHS-C PAL
thanx again!

[sanlyn]

Thankyou for all your inputs, the AVT-8710 seems like a good choice, and not too expencive.
BH Photo shipps to AU so i think ill go with them!

Maybe I've just been lucky with my AVT-8710 from 2003. It's been dropped several times, stepped on twice, accidentally left turned on for 3 days, etc., etc. Still working 100%. Note: those clunky image controls (bright, contrast, etc.) have a "memory". If you set them, unplug the TBC and turn it on again later, the settings are still active. It took me a couple of times using it before I figured that out. Kinda threw me off at first.

[mayhampixi]

Ok so i got the AVT-8710 from BH

Unfortunatly i am still dropping frames occasionally but it at least is giving me a constant signal.

ANyway i have just tried some tapes from 1989 and results are not good.

The AVT-8710 TBC is stuggling i think.

I am getting on capture freezing or ghosting....
Is this the TBC not handling the tape?

Would the Datavideo TBC-1000 do any better?
It is really annoying not being able to capture these 8mm tapes..

[edDV]

Freezing or ghosting don't sound like TBC issues. More like capture issues.

Describe your workflow.

And how do current recordings differ from 1989 recordings?

[jagabo]

How does the same tape capture without the TBC? Post short sample caps of the same segment with and without the TBC.

To rule out a capture problem make sure you tried everything in this post:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/104098-Why-does-your-system-drop-frames

Instead of capturing the video, run the output of the TBC to a TV. Does it display smoothly there?

[mayhampixi]

How does the same tape capture without the TBC? Post short sample caps of the same segment with and without the TBC?

It will not capture at all without the TBC
If i try without the TBC it flickers on and off like pulses... a second or two of footage then black then footage etc. Thats why i got the tbc... Otherwise it just says dropped frames and wont capture at all, its unwatchable, however it will play through tv fine.

Im not home atm but when i get home from work ill post some clips.

To rule out a capture problem make sure you tried everything in this post:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/1...em-drop-frames

Instead of capturing the video, run the output of the TBC to a TV. Does it display smoothly there?

I will hook it up to the tv tonight great idea,


However the earlier tapes from 2000 played on the tv fine without a TBC but when i tried to capture on computer it would flicker in and out so i went and bought the TBC!

edDV

Freezing or ghosting don't sound like TBC issues. More like capture issues

Yeh i have tried using BM media express, VirtualDub and Adobe CS5.5 and all had issues at the same points in the tape.

Adobe seems to slow down at points in the tape in its capture, virtualDub captures it as ghosting. Its allmost like its trying to output a signal but cant quite get it right. I will have to get a clip for you, i so wanted this to work...

Describe your workflow. And how do current recordings differ from 1989 recordings?

Workflow is old Video 8 movies homemade, ranging from 1989-2005

I will be wanting to go further back but those tapes are VHSC, im a bit worried if i cant even capture these Video 8 ones now how is it going to handle the VHSC...

Recordings from around 2000 drop some frames occasionally but usually thats right at the start of the tape or when scene changes. It shouldnt be my computer i think.. seeing its only using about 2-20% max cpu and same with RAM. I have a fresh install of windows no internet no updates no virus scanner, etc.

I am able to capture fine on the 2000 tapes, no ghosting or jumping/pausing on them just occasional dropped frame.

I understand the 1989 are old tapes, however they have been stored well and look new, it seems to play on the LCD of the VIdeo Camera ok... Im thinking ill try the TBC plugged into the TV and see if it still happens..

[jman98]

Workflow is old Video 8 movies homemade, ranging from 1989-2005

That's NOT what jagabo means. He means something like this: (all made up to serve as an example)

I use the Panasonic Video 8 player ACME71A to play my tapes. Output is fed over a single composite video cable to a Hauppauge XKJH999 video card which is my capture device. I record at 720x576 MPEG-2 with a constant bit rate of 8000 Kbps.

You said an awful lot in your post right above me, but most of what you said is not very useful to those who want to help you. Either you care enough to describe in better detail exactly what you are doing or don't really want help. Your choice here.

[mayhampixi]

You said an awful lot in your post right above me, but most of what you said is not very useful to those who want to help you. Either you care enough to describe in better detail exactly what you are doing or don't really want help. Your choice here.

easy tiger, i dont have that much time to waste to amuse myself in posting rubbish for fun, so yes i care and do want help.

I'm new so go easy,

Hope this is better, i am at work so oi dont have the serial of the Hitachi Video 8 Camcorder

I use the Hitachi Video 8 camcorder******* to play my tapes (i dont think it was the camcorder that recorded the early tapes but 1995 on it was). Output is fed over a single composite video cable to the AVT-8710 and then fed over a single composite video cable to a Black Magic Intensity shuttle which is my capture device.
I record at i think 720x576 whatever is normal video 8 PAL, 25fps Uncompressed 8bit yuv. I think everything is right and ill check tonight, my computer is:
i7 2600k 4.8Ghz
G.Skill 16GB RAM
MSI Twin Frozer GPU OC
Has a OCZ 120GB SSD(550MB/s write 500MB/s Read) HDD but im using the WD 1TB HDD to capture on (speed test is 130MB/s Write and Read)
Is this the information you need?
Please ask if any other info is needed as i'll try my best to answer it with my limited experience.

CHeers

[jagabo]

I would start by capturing a know stable source like broadcast TV or a DVD player (playing a non-macrovision protected disc). Verify that you can get clean caps from the Intensity Shuttle. Once you've verified the device is capturing properly you can start looking at the tape sources. From what I've seen a lot of people are having problems with the Black Magic Intensity products.

[mayhampixi]

here are some screen shots


So it does not do this all the time but enough that it is way annoying and unwatchable!
I personally thought it was the TBC due to the fact that before i used it the tape was uncapturable and now it is.,.. sortof
and second due to some reviews saying:

"A semi-con is that it doesn't just fix the bad part of the picture like more expensive TBCs, it freezes the entire frame, so when things get bad with your picture it will 'freeze' on the last good frame until it finds the next good one (like half a second later, usually), and your recording will have a 'ghost' image quality to it."

I am now looking and asking around if a more expencive/prosumer TBC will improve my results or help.
my chipset is Intel P67 on ASUS P8P67 Delux MOBO

[jagabo]

All your samples are showing loss of sync problems. I don't know the AVT-8710 so I can't tell you if another TBC is likely to do better. But it's normal for a TBC to freeze on the last good frame (or fields) when the signal is lost -- it's their job to provide a constant output signal even when the input is lost. Again, you should capture a known good source like broadcast TV or an unprotected DVD to verify the AT-8710 is working properly and your computer is capturing properly.

Maybe you have a PAL/NTSC issue?

[sanlyn]

I have to say, I never had anything like that from my 8710 unless I had the wrong "system" input set. The 8710 indicator lights for the input type should be lit up to match your input source. If the 8710 is set to "Auto", it should detect the input properly. But you can set it manually. I've had some pretty strange results if I set my input source incorrectly. So far, on "Auto" the 8710 hasn't yet made the wrong choice.

[davideck]

mayhampixi;
Do you know if these tapes are original recordings? Could they have been dubbed from an original tape?

These images look to me to have second generation kinds of lockup problems.