Best Hardware for VHS Digitization?

[DB83]

You two really need to get a room.

This arguement has no relevance to this thread. It has no relevance to practical demonstration since it was already stated that no equipment exists to even test, let alone prove, this wild theory. A guarantee is worthless in such a scenario.

The OP does not need this and he already stated that he does not want it.

But if you really want to continue, and rather than hijack this topic, start another and others may then see it and join in with the merriment.

[lacywest]

Nobody mentioned this ... you may need one of these type of units too ... http://www.world-import.com/macrovisionkiller.htm You need to connect it between your VHS Player and your PC or between your VHS Player and a DVD Recorder. If you dont use one of these ... some of those VHS transfers will look like crap ... picture will go ... dark to light ... dark to light ... dark to light ... and when it goes dark ... the image will become squiggly.

Okay ... I read through the post and I didn't see this ... how about perhaps getting a Panasonic DVD Recorder and connect the VHS Player to the inputs of the Panasonic DVD Recorder. You dont really need to get a unit with a hard drive in it. Just burn directly to the blank DVDs.

Find out how long the video is on the VHS Tape ... and set the feature called ... Flex Record ... for those exact ... Hours and minutes.

And you wont need your PC to do the work ... I saw your specs .... very very low.

Somebody posted that they think you have updated your PC to Windows XP or higher but your specs say WIN 98 with very little ram installed. The money used to update your PC to something that will allow you to capture VHS tapes to ... what ... mpg2 videos ... is going to cost you some bucks.

Just do my suggestion and you wont need to update your PC and plus you will need to buy some decent hardware too ... to allow video capture inside you PC.

You can always sell the DVD Recorder back to somebody ... on Ebay ... perhaps ... after you are through using it.

Actually ... you dont really need to get a Panasonic unit ... I do have a Pioneer 220 [no hard drive inside] that records to DVDs too ... and does a very nice job.

Panasonic DVD Recorders are the only ones that have ... Flex Record.

Pioneer uses pre-set settings ... like 2 Hours - 15 minutes. The Pioneer does not have one setting ... it has a bunch of settings to choose from ... different recording lengths ... to suit your needs.

Only thing is ... your movie might be 2 Hours and 12 minutes ... to me ... I want to squeeze every bit of video quality out of the processing ... and not waste 3 minutes.

[therock003]

Ok First Off, the Win98 PC i have on my specs is the first PC I used like 16 years ago. Of course i dont still use that (I even cant believe that people think i do)! I already mentioned i'm up to modern PC now. I even got an oced core i7 rig. So hardware is no issue.

As for this image stabilizers you mention on the link, their description sounds a lot similar to the TBCs we previously discussed. Are they the same thing, or something else?

I do already own a standalone DVD-recorder but it is of LG, so it doesnt have this Flex option. It only does preset times, but i dont thing that is going to be the problem. What worries me is quality. Can i just connect the video output of the VHS to the input of the LG recorder and get decent quality without having TBC and image stabilizers as intermediaries?

[usually_quiet]

Ok First Off, the Win98 PC i have on my specs is the first PC I used like 16 years ago. Of course i dont still use that (I even cant believe that people think i do)! I already mentioned i'm up to modern PC now. I even got an oced core i7 rig. So hardware is no issue.

Maybe you should consider updating the computer details in your profile. It might save you the trouble of answering so many questions about your computers in future threads.

As for this image stabilizers you mention on the link, their description sounds a lot similar to the TBCs we previously discussed. Are they the same thing, or something else?

Video stabilizers remove macrovision and possibly other copy protection in the signal sent from the VCR when playing commercial VHS tapes. However, there can also be errors in the signal from non-commercial tapes that a DVD recorder misinterprets as copy protection. If that happens, the DVD recorder will stop recording the tape. These errors can also confuse the automatic gain control causing the recorded picture to lighten and darken. In that case a stabilizer will help as well. If I remember correctly, TBCs do the same thing, but a full-frame TBC also re-aligns the picture so straight vertical lines are straight, not wavy.

I do already own a standalone DVD-recorder but it is of LG, so it doesnt have this Flex option. It only does preset times, but i dont thing that is going to be the problem. What worries me is quality. Can i just connect the video output of the VHS to the input of the LG recorder and get decent quality without having TBC and image stabilizers as intermediaries?

Results are unpredictable using just a DVD recorder with no TBC sitting between it and an ordinary VCR. Sometimes the recorded video will be fine, and other times not. Recording a few of your tapes and watching the resulting discs is the only way to know if this method will work well enough to satisfy you.

[lacywest]

As ... Usually Quiet said ... Results are unpredictable using just a DVD recorder with no TBC sitting between it and an ordinary VCR. Sometimes the recorded video will be fine, and other times not. Recording a few of your tapes and watching the resulting discs is the only way to know if this method will work well enough to satisfy you.

So ... Give it a try ... use the setting that will work with the length of a VHS tape that you want to try out. If your eyes like what you see ... your all set to begin this project.

As for the Sima device ... I do have one and it works very nicely.

[therock003]

I just tried my VHS and it seems it doesnt playback the tape. It doesnt even spin it Should i get it for repair?

This is the one i got. The Hitachi VT-8E. Do you reckon its worth a repair?

[DB83]

Just one tape or every tape you try ?

When you say 'spin' do you mean the tape does not revolve.

Is there any sign of life when it is swtiched on ? I notice that it works form 12v DC. Are you feeding it 12v DC ?

[sanlyn]

Results are unpredictable using just a DVD recorder with no TBC sitting between it and an ordinary VCR. Sometimes the recorded video will be fine, and other times not. Recording a few of your tapes and watching the resulting discs is the only way to know if this method will work well enough to satisfy you.

Most decent DVD recorders (including the one mentioned by the OP) have built-in TBC's on at least one input, usually Line 1.

Recording directly from VHS to MPEG in this manner works OK. It depends on what you mean by "decent" results. Even a good-condition VHS tape has a visible level of residual noise that comes from the tape itself, even if it's blank tape. Once encoded to MPEG, that noise is difficult to eliminate directly from MPEG, although less so if recorded first to AVI on a computer and cleaned up before rendering. Then again, some people just don't have time or $$$ for VHS-to-PC gear. The recorder the OP mentioned reportedly does a "decent" job for many users.

[usually_quiet]

Results are unpredictable using just a DVD recorder with no TBC sitting between it and an ordinary VCR. Sometimes the recorded video will be fine, and other times not. Recording a few of your tapes and watching the resulting discs is the only way to know if this method will work well enough to satisfy you.

Most decent DVD recorders (including the one mentioned by the OP) have built-in TBC's on at least one input, usually Line 1.

Recording directly from VHS to MPEG in this manner works OK. It depends on what you mean by "decent" results. Even a good-condition VHS tape has a visible level of residual noise that comes from the tape itself, even if it's blank tape. Once encoded to MPEG, that noise is difficult to eliminate directly from MPEG, although less so if recorded first to AVI on a computer and cleaned up before rendering. Then again, some people just don't have time or $$$ for VHS-to-PC gear. The recorder the OP mentioned reportedly does a "decent" job for many users.

The only information I had about the OP's DVD recorder is it is made by LG. He did not mention a model number. At the time, I didn't know anything about the VCR he would use either, except it was an old Hitachi. I presumed it was an ordinary VHS deck. That was too little information for me or anyone else to be making any snap judgements on the equipment providing OK results most of the time or not. In my book it still is.

Also, a line TBC and a full-frame TBC are not the same thing. I have read too many reports from various members here saying that a full-frame TBC was a life-saver when transferring a large collection of tapes to disc to completely discount their advice.

[lacywest]

Repairing your VHS machine ... well you live in Greece ... how far away are the repair stations in your area.

I live 40 minutes from ... Fresno California ... 1/2 million people live in that area ... there are definitely repair stations there ... one of them is authorized by Pioneer.

What would be the cost to repair it ?? Can you borrow a VHS deck from somebody and test out the capture with your LG DVD Recorder.

[therock003]

Just one tape or every tape you try ?

When you say 'spin' do you mean the tape does not revolve.

Is there any sign of life when it is swtiched on ? I notice that it works form 12v DC. Are you feeding it 12v DC ?

I tried a vouple of tapes, both same result. Yes there are sign of lifes, power is ok, time and other displays seem to be alive, i just press the play button and the tape does not revolve, and after a while (5-10sec) the stop button is highlighted.

Repairing your VHS machine ... well you live in Greece ... how far away are the repair stations in your area.

I live 40 minutes from ... Fresno California ... 1/2 million people live in that area ... there are definitely repair stations there ... one of them is authorized by Pioneer.

What would be the cost to repair it ?? Can you borrow a VHS deck from somebody and test out the capture with your LG DVD Recorder.

When you say repair stations you mean authorized ones? I dont know if there's specific personel to take a look at this, but ordinarily a local technisian that does TV-VHS repairs could possibly take a look at this.

BTW i read that this is supposedly semi-proffesional equipment and has 5 heads. Is it any good you reckon?

Desription.

Rare model of VCR "portable" semi-professional Hitachi Mod.VT-8E to 5 heads.
As you can see from the photos on the right side of the appliance and can connect a stereo audio input and video input and then a video output and a stereo. Chances to be powered at 12 volts and connected to a video camera Betacam.

[DB83]

Well to paraphrase Monty Python "This is a job for VCR Repair Man"

It is not a domestic VCR but intended for recording from a camera. Hence the 'Semi-pro' label. That being said there is no reason why, if it was working, it would not fit your purpose. Most of the heads would, quite likely, be used for recording rather than play-back.

So you need it get it repaired. A local repair-shop (even if you have one) may not want to do this if they do not have a service manual even though I would have thought that the general principles of drive belts, take up spools etc are the same. But getting parts for something that is not domestic standard could be the real problem.

[sanlyn]

The only information I had about the OP's DVD recorder is it is made by LG. He did not mention a model number. At the time, I didn't know anything about the VCR he would use either, except it was an old Hitachi. I presumed it was an ordinary VHS deck. That was too little information for me or anyone else to be making any snap judgements on the equipment providing OK results most of the time or not. In my book it still is.

I don't know of any LG DVD recorder that doesn't have some sort of TBC on at least one input.

Also, a line TBC and a full-frame TBC are not the same thing. I have read too many reports from various members here saying that a full-frame TBC was a life-saver when transferring a large collection of tapes to disc to completely discount their advice.

True, line-level TBC's and frame-level are not the same. A frame-level TBC won't help when it comes to crooked verticals and many tearing issues, and some of the better line-levels can help with chroma displacement. A frame-level TBC mainly insures that the frames arrive at the capture point at a constant frame rate. Offhand, I don't know that the LG has both types of TBC, but it's either a line-level or frame-level, and it could be both, according to model. Better recorders have better TBC's.

Consider this: if you use a frame-level external TBC such as the AVT-8710 ($200), the TBC will output frames at their correct frame rate. In most cases, this reworking of the original timing signal will defeat macrovision. If you then feed that corrected signal to a DVD recorder with a TBC built-in, the recorder's TBC won't see anything to correct and will do nothing regardless of which type of TBC is in there.

If one had to choose between a line-level or frame-level TBC for capturing home-made VHS, I'd go for the line-level myself. Macrovision shouldn't be an issue with home made VHS. VHS problems are worse with unsynchronized line-by-line output and image warping than they are with frame-by-frame output, though a good line-level job will often correct some (but far from all) of the frame issue. If the VHS is old, distorted garbage, and/or if the VCR's transport is junk, you'll definitely need both types, which is what I've been using. You'd need the line-level first in the stream, followed by a frame-level TBC.

[usually_quiet]

The only information I had about the OP's DVD recorder is it is made by LG. He did not mention a model number. At the time, I didn't know anything about the VCR he would use either, except it was an old Hitachi. I presumed it was an ordinary VHS deck. That was too little information for me or anyone else to be making any snap judgements on the equipment providing OK results most of the time or not. In my book it still is.

I don't know of any LG DVD recorder that doesn't have some sort of TBC on at least one input.

Also, a line TBC and a full-frame TBC are not the same thing. I have read too many reports from various members here saying that a full-frame TBC was a life-saver when transferring a large collection of tapes to disc to completely discount their advice.

True, line-level TBC's and frame-level are not the same. A frame-level TBC won't help when it comes to crooked verticals and many tearing issues, and some of the better line-levels can help with chroma displacement. A frame-level TBC mainly insures that the frames arrive at the capture point at a constant frame rate. Offhand, I don't know that the LG has both types of TBC, but it's either a line-level or frame-level, and it could be both, according to model. Better recorders have better TBC's.

Consider this: if you use a frame-level external TBC such as the AVT-8710 ($200), the TBC will output frames at their correct frame rate. In most cases, this reworking of the original timing signal will defeat macrovision. If you then feed that corrected signal to a DVD recorder with a TBC built-in, the recorder's TBC won't see anything to correct and will do nothing regardless of which type of TBC is in there.

If one had to choose between a line-level or frame-level TBC for capturing home-made VHS, I'd go for the line-level myself. Macrovision shouldn't be an issue with home made VHS. VHS problems are worse with unsynchronized line-by-line output and image warping than they are with frame-by-frame output, though a good line-level job will often correct some (but far from all) of the frame issue. If the VHS is old, distorted garbage, and/or if the VCR's transport is junk, you'll definitely need both types, which is what I've been using. You'd need the line-level first in the stream, followed by a frame-level TBC.

Prosumer S-VHS decks have a real line TBC, but according to something I remember reading at videohelp (written by lordsmurf I think), not many DVD recorders have one. What DVD recorders usually have instead is circuitry which approximates the functions of a line TBC. Regardless, the effectiveness of said hardware likely varies quite a bit from one model to the next.

We don't know anything about these tapes other than that they are old. The OP hasn't said whether his tapes are commercial releases or ones he recorded himself. He may need to remove Macrovision, plus errors in home-made tapes can cause false Macrovision detection and can cause AGC circuitry to act up. As I recall, these kinds of errors are more likely to be found in old or well-worn tapes. The "line TBC" circuitry in a DVD recorder won't help with those.

I don't have a full-frame TBC to test with. I have a Panasonic DMR-ES10, which is supposed to be pretty good at fixing some VHS problems, and I have transferred a few tapes to disc with it. I still saw slightly wavy vertical lines, small tearing issues and some color issues, and some contrast issues. Some transfers were definitely better than others. These were not attempts at restoration or preservation, so they are acceptable. Otherwise, I'd want to do better. I don't know what level of quality the OP expects to achieve.

The OP may or may not be happy using just his DVD recorder and his VCR. He won't know until he tries. Anyone who attempts to predict whether or not someone they don't know is going to be pleased with the results from equipment they themselves have never used, transferring tapes they know very little about, is a fool.

[sanlyn]

Certainly food for thought, usually_quiet. I have an old ES10 and ES20, where I noted the TBC works only on Line 1. I recorded a few tapes into it, but it worked OK as a pass-thru TBC into my PC, where most of my old tapes needed some real work. As a TBC pass-thru, my Toshiba RD-XS34 was superior, but on a decent tape in good shape it's difficult to tell the difference.

You're right. Without more info from the OP, there's not much anyone can do.

[Crollo]

Am I the only one that thinks an easycap with virtualdub is good enough for these purposes?

[sanlyn]

Possibly. Low quality, install and driver problems, weird behavior overall. Burt if it works for you. . .

[Crollo]

The thing doesn't even come to half of ten bucks, to expect HD quality out of it when the source isn't good quality to begin with is absolutely idiotic.
Never had any driver or installation problems with it, using a operating system that isn't 5 revisions down from the penultimate tends to help with that, and you're right. Easycap isn't the 'best', but is it so bad that it's unusable?

You all can shell out +300$ for your super-awesome HD recording suites, I'll just be sticking with what works.

[DB83]

Am I the only one that thinks an easycap with virtualdub is good enough for these purposes?

The critical words here are 'good enough'.

Now if you have only used an easycap, genuine or fake, and the output meets your own criteria then it is 'good enough'.

In such a case you would not venture into getting something 'better'

But these 'words' are nothing more than comparisons of your own experience. It is your own opinion. Many here will agree with you and many more will not.

[Crollo]

Good point, as for 'best' VHS capture I personally think that something like a blackmagic HD Capture card would probably be the best you could get for quality, even if for recording SD.

[usually_quiet]

Good point, as for 'best' VHS capture I personally think that something like a blackmagic HD Capture card would probably be the best you could get for quality, even if for recording SD.

There are a couple of active threads on the subject. Apparently, the Blackmagic cards are not a good choice for recording analog tapes. They don't tolerate drop-outs and imperfect synchronization as well as some other capture devices. A TBC is needed to get good results with analog tapes.

[Crollo]

Oh..... Well I suppose a DVR would work?

[usually_quiet]

Oh..... Well I suppose a DVR would work?

The Blackmagic cards can work for recording the output from a DVR. It depends on the connection used. They won't record the output from an HDMI source if HDCP copy protection is applied, and that is often the case with set-top boxes or DVRs. Blackmagic's consumer products are popular for recording the output from video game consoles.

[sanlyn]

The thing doesn't even come to half of ten bucks, to expect HD quality out of it when the source isn't good quality to begin with is absolutely idiotic.
Never had any driver or installation problems with it, using a operating system that isn't 5 revisions down from the penultimate tends to help with that, and you're right. Easycap isn't the 'best', but is it so bad that it's unusable?

You all can shell out +300$ for your super-awesome HD recording suites, I'll just be sticking with what works.

I wouldn't consider it usable for my purposes. But my expectations are higher, so I'm using different gear and software -- and living within their limitations, which don't go so far as expecting HD from SD sources. No one's stopping you from using this device. Certainly, it's no one's place to criticize your use of it . If you're satisfied, have at it.

[sanlyn]

Oh..... Well I suppose a DVR would work?

The Blackmagic cards can work for recording the output from a DVR. It depends on the connection used. They won't record the output from an HDMI source if HDCP copy protection is applied, and that is often the case with set-top boxes or DVRs. Blackmagic's consumer products are popular for recording the output from video game consoles.

The Atlona company makes a reputable downscaler that converts HD sources using component RGB HD input, downscaled to 480i SD via your choice of s-video or composite output. I don't own one, but I've seen some results and plan on trying it, as it's received good press in several forums.

[lordsmurf]

Prosumer S-VHS decks have a real line TBC, but according to something I remember reading at videohelp (written by lordsmurf I think), not many DVD recorders have one. What DVD recorders usually have instead is circuitry which approximates the functions of a line TBC. Regardless, the effectiveness of said hardware likely varies quite a bit from one model to the next..

Correct. It varies highly. Panasonic used to refer to it as a "virtual TBC".
Would you date a "virtual" woman? (transvestite). Or have a "virtual" kitten as a pet? (skunk)
Sort of the same, but not really.

Certainly food for thought, usually_quiet. I have an old ES10 and ES20, where I noted the TBC works only on Line 1. ....... my Toshiba RD-XS34 was superior.

Those are two of the best DVD recorders (series') made, in terms of filters. So you're biased.
Most recorders don't come anywhere near that.

[sanlyn]

Certainly food for thought, usually_quiet. I have an old ES10 and ES20, where I noted the TBC works only on Line 1. ....... my Toshiba RD-XS34 was superior.

Those are two the best DVD recorders (series') made, in terms of filters. So you're biased.

Indeed. They worked so well, when I heard they were going our of production I bought another copy of each. After 8 years, 1000's of recordings, and one optical disc replacement, all 4 still work. It's a shame that kind of consumer-level quality has all but disappeared. Since then I see the original $500 MSRP RD-XS34 selling used on Amazon for $850.

[usually_quiet]

Oh..... Well I suppose a DVR would work?

The Blackmagic cards can work for recording the output from a DVR. It depends on the connection used. They won't record the output from an HDMI source if HDCP copy protection is applied, and that is often the case with set-top boxes or DVRs. Blackmagic's consumer products are popular for recording the output from video game consoles.

The Atlona company makes a reputable downscaler that converts HD sources using component RGB HD input, downscaled to 480i SD via your choice of s-video or composite output. I don't own one, but I've seen some results and plan on trying it, as it's received good press in several forums.

Blackmagic's consumer cards have composite, S-Video, and component analog inputs. DVRs and STBs can produce SD video resolutions using the matching analog connections. I'm not sure what using a downscaler with one of them would accomplish, unless for some reason using SD settings on the DVR or STB always means letterboxed 4:3, regardless of the analog connection used.

[sanlyn]

Blackmagic's consumer cards have composite, S-Video, and component analog inputs. DVRs and STBs can produce SD video resolutions using the matching analog connections. I'm not sure what using a downscaler with one of them would accomplish, unless for some reason using SD settings on the DVR or STB always means letterboxed 4:3, regardless of the analog connection used.

The Atlona unit is just another way of getting HD into some other form, if desired. I might have seen that mentioned as a possibility elsewhere in this thread. OTOH, some of these capture threads are starting to look alike