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Although the AVT is supposed to be able to switch to neutral, it unfortunately does not. Levels and colors are always altered. If using a proc amp, this wouldn't be a big deal, however the TBC performance of this model's current units is problematic. It can also go haywire and also introduce artifacts into your video. There's a good thread on it over at DigitalFAQ.Originally Posted by juhok
I've never used AVT. I suppose you can select if you want it enabled or not. Download and read the manuals so you know better what they will and will not do.Originally Posted by zerowalker
@Zerowalker TBC-1000 may or may not soften your image, but at least it does what it should and it does it well. At this price range you can't expect to have all the boxes ticked. And despite whatever negligible quality loss your signal could potentially suffer, it is still a better quality signal due to being properly stabilized. Also the only true way to remove MV if you need to.
To be honest, I am a little surprised that with so much time invested into this project you are yet to use a TBC. IMO this should be one of the first things on the list for quality control.
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Last edited by SixFiftyThree; 1st Sep 2012 at 23:06.
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There hasnīt been a need for one.Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
As the only thing a TBC is needed for, is if the capture device droppes frames, or the image bounces and stuff right?
I never had any problems with any of those with my current card, thatīs why.
I would prefer not to get one if the ATI AIW cards are able to capture without a TBC aswell, but without that damn White Crush;S -
If you are capping to lossless HuffYUV / Lagarith / whatever, I would definitely use a TBC to fall back on in case there are problems during the course of capture. Also remember that even if your tapes aren't copy protected, tape errors can trigger false detection of MV and stuff your capture. Some devices like the Blackmagic line are particularly sensitive, and will constantly drop out on a signal that hasn't been frame synced.Originally Posted by zerowalker
There hasnīt been a need for one.Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
As the only thing a TBC is needed for, is if the capture device droppes frames, or the image bounces and stuff right?
I never had any problems with any of those with my current card, thatīs why.
I would prefer not to get one if the ATI AIW cards are able to capture without a TBC aswell, but without that damn White Crush;S
If you are concerned about signal
integrity, you could just use a TBC where needed, but you should still own one regardless. Otherwise, if you have a big budget, the next step up would be a TBC with SDI out into a capture card with SDI input. In this scenario there is just one A/D conversion, but if you want uncompressed then you would need to capture to a RAID. Unless you are getting paid for this work, I see this as an unnecessary expense. -
Wait a minute -- doesn't zerowalker already have a Toshiba DVD recorder being used as pass-thru TBC? That unit does has have frame synch activity as well as some level of line TBC. What happened to that unit? I thought zerowalker was using it.
Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:47.
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The problem with that unit is, S-video artifacts;S
Else it would be perfect to play around with, but i canīt live with those artifacts...
But i will keep it, as it can be useful for something i guess
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zerowalker,. I have no idea what you mean by s-video artifacts. IF you mean it made some noise in noisy video easier to see, that's correct. It can be cleaned later. If you're worried about "detail", your worries will be over after using the TBC-1000 -- there won't be enough detail remaining to worry about.
SixFiftyThree might be amazed that you haven't permanently softened your video with a TBC=1000, but I'm amazed that you don't get the same results with a Toshiba DVD pass-thru that others get. I just scrolled backward looking for mention of s-video artifacts, but maybe I missed something. What kind of s-video artifacts?Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:47.
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So it totally blurs everything?TBC-1000 -- there won't be enough detail remaining to worry about.
Then itīs nothing for me, i canīt tolerate if things get "destroyed" more than it already is;S
Itīs the typical "Wana be S-video" artifacts, meaning, itīs probably Composite sent in S-video.What kind of s-video artifacts?
I think i uploaded 2 samples from a DVD movie, and there was a big difference in quality, okay maybe not big, but it shouldnīt be that big.
Will link it here if i find it.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/335493-Well-VHS-capturing-Mostly-cartoons-having-so...=1#post2170976 -
If you think the Funai is giving a better image, then use that for output (I still don't see any herringbone from either unit. Even so, how do you know it's not coming from the tape or the player?). In any case, unless you're willing to invest in shop-quality gear and the time to learn to use it, you can't get a perfect capture from the kind of gear that you and I can't afford anyway. Even then, someone like lordsmurf who is a pro at VHS tranfser (with the equipment and experience to do it) will tell you that even the "best" analog capture needs post-processing.
You can give either the Toshiba or the Funai unit a try (or both of them), but I don't see how a frame-level TBC like any of those mentioned will make that much improvement in old tapes. Frame-level TBC's won't correct tearing, ripples, or line timing problems, and they won't address the problem of your capture device burning up bright detail. That's not what they're designed to do.
You keep switching videos, from anime to real-time video, not to mention changing filters and equipment that make it difficult for readers to analyze what causes which problems. Anime and "real" video each have their specific problems. They are created differently and they behave differently. I didn't see much in either of the two animes referred to that couldn't be fixed with post-processing. However, the anime that was posted a few days ago with the volcano in the background had line timing problems that nothing can fix, so apparently you switched equipment again. In any event, if you keep waiting for the perfect analog capture, I don't think I've ever seen such a thing posted anywhere.
But it's obvious that your capture device is a problem. I looked into its manual again and keep coming across references to "filter registers" whose settings can be fathomed only by video engineers and which I don't think would improve anything anyway (but I can't say for certain, because even the illustrations are incomprehensible). For myself, I haven't looked at capture cards since 2004, so I can't offer an opinion on newer products that anyone could afford. if I had the money, I'd likely be buying something from B&H Photo that costs well over $2000 USD and require even more equipment for proper use. But that's out of the question.Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:47.
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Originally Posted by sanlyn
What's with this FUD? Yes, TBC-1000 adds AD and DA conversion, more cables and connectors and other stuff to the signal path. It's high freq response is not optimal (VHS doesn't fall in this category). It's not perfect by any means. But we're talking small budget VHS transfers here. Those quoted statements are misleading and gross exaggeration.Originally Posted by zerowalker
Attached you can find 2 screenshots. One is a direct capture, other is thru TBC-1000. Which one is "DESTROYED" in your opinion? -
So get a TBC-1000. Plenty of people use them. How is that supposed to help correct line timing and burned-out highlights?
The bottom image looks as if it has been sharpened later.Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:48.
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If you read up this thread, TBC/Frame sync was brought up in relation to Blackmagic capture device which doesn't work with VHS without one. Both pictures are straight from device.Originally Posted by sanlyn
edit: Watch them in 1:1 size, browser scaling sucks.Last edited by juhok; 2nd Sep 2012 at 09:32.
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As sanlyn have stated, my current problems arenīt the TBCing itself, i do have a Line TBC, and all is well, Except for the Burning White.
Which is what made us come into the TBC and alternative Capture Card, but this is the Last thing i wana do (Capture card + TBC).
And with the Screenshots, i canīt say any of them is "destroyed", but the bottom is a bit more bright, donīt know if itīs bad or not though.
And why i have changed videos all the time, is that some stuff are easier seen in other videos, but the biggest problem has been solved, and that was the Line TBC, which took me forever to get (along with S-video VCR).
So donīt look on my videos and wonder what i do, itīs more like, i test them and see what errors i get and how you fix them.
Or something like that, Cartoon are easy to see Color errors for example, while Real Life are good to test oversharpening and Luma etc.
And much other stuff of course, i do not really compare Cartoon with a non-cartoon, cartoons are Far easier to denoise and stuff.
But i am currently waiting for a guy that works with a Software TBC (you probably now him, Doom9), he is working with my card(same chipset), and i want to see if the White Crush can be solved, and how it goes along, if there can be a Perfect TBC when you capture the entire range with Hsync and all that stuff. -
Well I'm not amazed Zerowalker hasn't used the TBC-1000 specifically, I was just surprised he doesn't use any TBC at all.Originally Posted by sanlyn
Also, not all Datavideo units exhibit softness, and not to the point you're describing. If capping to lossless, there will still be plenty of detail left. Or rather left to clean up, considering how much of it is noise.
I wasn't aware he was using a different option for frame sync, but this DVD recorder would still obey anti-copy, so it's not a perfect option either. None of these devices are, it's just a matter of picking which trade off you can live with. But if a full TBC is needed, wouldn't using something reliable and built for that task, despite its imperfections, be the better choice?
And really if no trade off is acceptable then high-end gear is the only other choice. Which is a risk in itself and not a sensible investment here. -
Toshiba:Originally Posted by sanlyn
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Are all really using a TBC?Well I'm not amazed Zerowalker hasn't used the TBC-1000 specifically, I was just surprised he doesn't use any TBC at all.
I mean, the old capture cards doesnīt seem to be so sensitive?
My card has not problems at all capturing directly from the VCR, but i have used another card (Avermedia something) and it dropped sync every second, and the picture was alot worse (but may b e thanks to the sync).
Havenīt been using this really, was more for itīs Line TBC, which did work pretty good, but is over brightened the picture a bit (canīt fix that if it went beyond the range), and it had artifacts with S-video (donīt want to use composite and then composite again).I wasn't aware he was using a different option for frame sync
So i only use the VCR which has S-video and Line TBC now. -
I agree with all that you say. Every hobbyist-level external TBC has its problems. I've used both TBC's mentioned, and they were both scoundrels, but they're not altogether insurmountable.Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
The DVD recorder used as pass-thru has no copy protection issues with any VHS I've used on it (so far). Samples of copy-protected tapes that were captured OK to AVI are posted elsewhere. But these are used as pass-thru units with some level of frame synch and line timing correction -- certainly, nothing like pro gear. Of course, none of these DVD's will record macrovision sources directly, any more than my AllInWonders would if connected directly to a VCR without any form of intervening TBC.
I'm still wondering about about the card's bright detail problem. Looking back at earlier captures, I see highlights blown away everywhere, even those where a pass-thru or camcorder's playback was smoothing many line wiggles. I do see complaints about that card on the 'net, but I never got into deep detail reading those posts. I went over the user manual 3 times now. I don't know why it would go into such minutiae concerning its filter registers, but I suspect some setting in there is affecting high frequency input and killing highlights. I'm just not enough of an engineer to know what the manual is talking about.Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:49.
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I actually had problems with the first tape i tried, the entire top (about a 1/3) bent to the Left i think;SThe DVD recorder used as pass-thru has no copy protection issues with any VHS I've used on it (so far)
I guess that it was macrovision or something there.
with that you mean that all are to "dark", dimmed, or what to call it?I'm still wondering about about the card's bright detail problem. Looking back at earlier captures, I see highlights blown away everywhere
If so then yes, i didnīt really think of it myself until recently.
I thought, well VHS is a tape, it probably is dimmed and so because of how it works!
But then when i played around i noticed that the White Crush was making this, even on placed where it doesnīt need to be ON, and i canīt really tolerate that, maybe itīs a bit to optimistic to think that everything will work with the card, but well i do want it to work.
Especially if you canīt fix it, itīs one thing if it was fixable, with an offset or something, but itīs impossible with an AGC that dim the picture, you canīt increase the contrast or brightness as itīs always on the top, even though it looks dark:S
You are not alone, i donīt understand anything of it, which is why i wait and hope that the TBC guy which is using this card, will be able to solve it, or make something of it ( though he is not using it for the sake of White Crush).I'm just not enough of an engineer to know what the manual is talking about.
But i will have to wait and see, cause if itīs some setting that can be changed within the Driver somehow, than it would be perfect, if not, well, then i will have to look at the other solutions, but thatīs the last thing i wana do right now;S -
Well, most are using a device that provides frame sync, which is most commonly a standalone TBC unit, but can also be the DVD recorder alternative if not others. The important thing is to have it in some form.Originally Posted by zerowalker
Even if you believe you can do without, I believe you'll find the need in time. That's why TBC/frame sync is a staple of analog capture, because most people do find the need. -
I don't think you understand about white crush, or blown-out highlights. To say that brights are blow away doesn't mean they're too dark; it means they are too bright. If your videos were too dark, the problem would be at the other end (crushed blacks and darks). It's very odd that the brights at 255 or even higher in the videos have actually been lowered to RGB 220 or even lower, yet everything at RGB 170 or brighter is void of detail. Look at the beach video with the young boy; you can't see the footprints or fine gradations in the bright sand -- not until you use that White Crush filter, which lowers the brights all the way down to RGB 220, so that details around RGB 170 or brighter start to appear.
That's just crazy. My own Panasonic VCRs tend to juice up both ends of "contrast" somewhat, making both the darks and the brights at or just below/above crushing, and Panasonics tend to push (oversaturate) red. I fix the dark/bright issue with a 10% increase in brightness (for the darks) and a 15% drop in contrast (for the brights) in VirtualDub capture. The bright/contrast capture filters that VirtualDub is using are actually the bright/contrast controls in my ATI card. That's not perfect for every scene in a 90-minute VHS movie, but it's enough leeway to allow me to retrieve detail later, working in YUV. That method works suitably in my setup, but it doesn't seem to do anything for the brights in your card.Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:49.
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Oh okay well, itīs as you say.
I donīt really get how the White Crush retrieves whatīs been "lost", it just doesnīt make sense, as it doesnīt follor the Clipping range;S
But well hopefully it will be solved or atleast understandable sooner or later.
Oh, well i donīt know if mine is to dark och to bright in itīs original form, as my card is like it is, i canīt say whatīs original or not:SMy own Panasonic VCRs tend to juice up both ends of "contrast" somewhat, making both the darks and the brights at or just below/above crushing
But how do you "solve" the over doing of Red?Last edited by zerowalker; 2nd Sep 2012 at 10:59.
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ColorYUV(cont_v=-20) is a negative value for v-channel (mostly red) contrast. It will lower contrast. Normally I don't get completely out-of-bound reds during capture from Panasonics, but just using the brightness/contrast image controls during capture will shrink most of it into a manageable range. I can reduce some of the hot Red in YUV, and further control it with RGB color controls like ColorMill or gradation curves.
Another way to reduce Red oversaturation in YUV would be something like ColorYUV(gain_v=-10) -- a negative value for Red gain, which will lower bright and middle red from the right-hand (bright) side toward the left-hand (darker) side without too much affect on the darkest reds. A positive value for gain will expand or stretch a color or luma from the left-hand dark side toward the right-hand bright side.
You can also use Tweak or SmoothAdjust by setting several parameters. There are many ways to do it. You don't see how it works until you actually start using these filters. But first you have to understand dark, middle, and bright and how they appear in 'scopes and histograms, as well as how they look when you eyeball it. It takes a little reading, a little fiddling, but ultimately some experience actually using it.Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:49.
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Been awhile, but making a little update.
Have finally got my hands on an AIW card which i tried to capture a little on.
I noticed a thing with it, i donīt get the S-Video crosstalk for some reason, not sure if it notices it and blends it or something.
Uploaded a video just to show it a bit, though itīs from a console, as i just did a fast test.
But one thing i wonder for you guys who have AIW cards.
Do you have to only have the AIW card connected to get the capture to work?
Cause if i have my Graphic Card connected, it doesnīt even show the capture drivers in Device Manager at all.
But if i remove it, it works fine.
Really irritating as i have to remove the Graphic Card.
But i think some Bioses allow PCI over PCI-E priority or something.
But i donīt get why the drivers donīt appear, why is that part turned off, can anyone illuminate that for me? -
Nice to see you're still alive! Not so nice to see the SOS from you. By the way, SOS does NOT mean "Save Our Ship".
Once again you have found yet another in your endless parade of excuses almost TWO FREAKIN' YEARS after your first post to justify being back at square one and accomplishing NOTHING in almost TWO YEARS of working on this.
Don't worry, sanlyn will be along shortly to help you in this fool's quest. I look forward to your next excuse a few months from now and don't worry, sanlyn will "help" you with that too. You are either the stupidest poster we've ever had or you're the most successful troll ever. Any reasonable person after 2 years would have at least captured one tape by now and just lived with it or given up and bought the DVDs or paid someone to do it for them. -
I donīt really see why you are getting so upset.
If you donīt like what i am doing, why donīt you just ignore it?
Itīs not like i am trying to ruin stuff for you, or any other, if they want to help, then they help.
And i appreciate the help i get.
And why i donīt get far, is because i have since start, had problems with my Capture Card, and jagabo and other had since told me that the AIW card is the way to go. And i was desperately trying to Not buy another card (as cheap as i am), but in the end i had no choice.
But i still do not have a TBC except the DVD which i bought that sadly only works correctly with Composite i believe.
Or if it now comes to that the AIW card can actually use the S-Video correctly when my other card couldnīt, which i doubt as itīs probably just blending or something, else the only thing i can think of is that there is more ways to send video in S-Video, which i don't think there is.
Hope you understand my point, and sorry for making it sound like excuses here and there
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Typical ATI driver problems.Originally Posted by zerowalker
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Any ideas whatīs causing it?
Doesnīt really make much sense that it has to be primary to work as a capture device.
I tried searching for it, but i guess i either search with wrong keywords, or there isnīt much discussion about it. -
Which AIW card do you have? There are the PCi capture cards that don't have full graphics capability, and there are full-fledged AIw's that replace your usual AGP card. Then there are the early PCIe models.
The AGP-mount AIW's don't have capture drivers that work with Windows versions later than XP. Most users with AGP All In Wonders use VirtualDub for capture. They don't install ATI's player or the Theater Center, they just install the basic drivers, the WDM capture and tuner drivers, and the Control Panel.Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:49.
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I got PCI 7500 VE, and as far as i know, itīs a graphic card as well, not sure if itīs a good one or not though.
It uses Rage Theater for the TV Tuner.
And it need windows xp, but i got it working in Windows Vista 32bit, but itīs very complicated, so havenīt got it solid yet, but the capture i did above was within Vista.
And i use Virtualdub, havenīt got MMC to work in either XP or Vista, but no real bother as i like Virtualdub
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The AIW capture drivers will not work in any Windows version later than XP.
By the way, you can still buy copies of Windows XP from various sources, but the PCI version of the card is really old. If you can find an old XP or Windows 2000 computer that still works and can take an older PCI-mount graphics card, you could use it for capture. You could hardly use the PC for anything else with new editing softwrew, but it would make good captures with VirtualDubMod. Don't bither with the MCI install -- it was OK back then, but has seen its day. You don't need MMC for capture.Last edited by sanlyn; 26th Mar 2014 at 02:49.
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Yes and no, officially, it doesnīt work.
But itīs possible to force it to work.
I took a print screen of when i got it to work, though the virtualdub doesnīt let printscreen take whatīs shown in it, so itīs just black;S
But atleast i took the video above as proof.
But as said, i got it working, but it took hours, and when i restart, itīs a big chance it doesnīt work, so i have to play around hours again, so itīs not really fun, so as said, itīs not solid yet.
Here is the picture, though doesnīt show much as itīs just black;P
Is it possible to make it less big, it takes up half the forum;S?
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