Well, VHS capturing Mostly cartoons, having some questions:)

[jagabo]

So if i understand right, the only difference is pretty much that the S-video sends Chroma and Luminance separate, while Composite sends everything through luminance?

Yes.

So there should not be any difference in the works between an S-video Scart and Normal Scart, if Composite is connected?

That is correct. But remember that s-video luma is the same pin as composite on the SCART connector. So the source device has to be told which you want to output.

But if it´s correct, i can´t understand why normal Scart works but an Adapter don´t.

But be aware that there are SCART-to-s-video cables and s-video-to-SCART cables. They are not interchangeable. The SCART connection has separate inputs and outputs for s-video. The same is true for composite.

[zerowalker]

But be aware that there are SCART-to-s-video cables and s-video-to-SCART cables. They are not interchangeable. The SCART connection has separate inputs and outputs for s-video. The same is true for composite.[/QUOTE]

Yeah i understand that, cause else it would be able to send Everything at the same time (well it probably can if it wants to anyway.)
But a VCR Only sends Composite (if not said otherwise, and normally the S-video is separate aswell).
And it can´t be RGB for a VCR, and RGB sends composite aswell.

So i can´t see what´s wrong, if it´s not something wrong which makes it only work with an S-video adapter, but i still can´t get why as the composite is sent through the same pins. It would be one thing if it was sent through Chroma and Luma at the same time on an S-video adapter, but that isn´t the case.

And the adapters i have tried either has All pins, or some pins (probably only the RCA and composite).

Do you have any idea what can be wrong?

Or am i missing something with how the Scart works?

[zerowalker]

Okay sorry for delaying this, but forget about the Scart thing, i totally forgot that it wasn´t adaptive to input and output.

And now i have finally tried a VCR with S-video, but it also has black bars appearing sometimes, so i can only imagine that it´s from the Video, as it´s pretty much impossible for 2 vcrs to have the same error like this right?

Here is a picture, it´s a JVC 6700 or something (no tbc, but got a Panasonic SV-121 which i haven´t tried yet which will be my main).

I can say easily that the JVC is Much more smoother, if it´s good or bad, i can´t say as i haven´t done any deep test with it.

But one thing i can say is, either i am blind, or the S-Video is really S-Video this time

[manono]

And now i have finally tried a VCR with S-video, but it also has black bars appearing sometimes,

What black bars? Like in the bottom left of the picture? The head-switching noise? All VCRs will show that.

[zerowalker]

Sorry, Bars was an improper word for these, it´s the black stripes. Look between the R and S in STARS.

[zerowalker]

Okay after a long time i finally got my hands on a VCR with S-video And TBC!

Here is a clip

Though i am a bit disappointed at the TBC, i thought it would be more stable, did i expect to much?

[jagabo]

Yeah, the TBC isn't working well. The chroma shift is pretty bad too. Is that a second generation VHS recording? At least the dot crawl problems are gone. Why are you using RGB? You should be capturing and saving as YUY2.

[zerowalker]

Damn, that´s a dissapointment;S

And no it´s now, it´s a bought movie.

Yes it´s very clean

Oh the RGB is a miss with resaving, didn´t notice it.


Will capture with and without TBC and upload it.

[jagabo]

That's really bad for a commercial release. A little filtering can fix up some of the problems.

Before:


after:

[zerowalker]

Okay here is all settings in 4 clips
The names says it all.

And saw your image, it looks nice, how does it look in motion?

[jagabo]

Does the SVHS deck have a sharpness filter? If so, turn it down.

[zerowalker]

Sadly it don´t
I thought it had the picture control, but it doesn´t have anything like that.
But the Haloing from this is the same as me previous, so i don´t know if it´s the VCR or the tape?

EDIT:

Missed that you said it was bad for a Commercial Release, what did you mean with that?

[jman98]

Jagabo - Seriously - why don't you just get him to send you the tapes and do the work for him because that would certainly take up less of your time than responding 20+ times a day to a thread that is NEVER going to die because zerowalker isn't ever going to be able to get this done to his satisfcation. You are just enabling his insanity. He's had ONE FREAKIN' YEAR to get this done and it's STILL going on. He is not ever going to complete this task. Just get the stupid tapes from him, do the work for him, and end the madness, man.

[zerowalker]

jman98, it´s going slowly but in a steady path.
I just got hold of a S-video VCR with TBC, which has been my primary goal in the hardware way, now i just need to see if it works as expected.

I am sorry if it bothers you are anyone else that this topic has been going on for a very long time.
But i myself think it´s pretty enjoyable, as we have learned much, even Jagabo has learned some stuff probably

[jagabo]

The TBC appears to be helping a little.

You said the tape was a "bought movie". I meant the quality is pretty poor for a commercially sold tape. It looks more like a second generation VHS recording.

[zerowalker]

The TBC appears to be helping a little.

You said the tape was a "bought movie". I meant the quality is pretty poor for a commercially sold tape. It looks more like a second generation VHS recording.

Well that´s good, but what do you think, is it something i should use, or is it a waste?


Ah yeah well, that company and this particular cartoon has it´s own problems, i mean, look at the right, it´s like stairs of blackness.
It has always been like that, even when it was broadcasted here.

[sanlyn]

That's really bad for a commercial release. A little filtering can fix up some of the problems.

Nice. Care to let us in on your secret fix the chroma bleed problem? I didn't even try to address it, I've looked everywhere for solutions to that one. I have a feeling that masktools played a part in that "little filtering".

Anyway, that's a lot of damage. The attachment below was a quickie, and I'm in Doom9 now looking (again!) for chroma bleed fixes.

Zerowalker, keep the tbc. Other problems aside, playback is much smoother than your previous samples.

[zerowalker]

So you think it´s much more stable, wavyness etc sanlyn?

and your denoising looks good, how do you make it look, well, Static?
Mine looks something like this.

[jagabo]

Care to let us in on your secret fix the chroma bleed problem?

I did the following:

AviSource("SV-121 TBC+3DNR.avi") 
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
ColorYUV(cont_y=20, cont_u=30, cont_v=50)
ChromaShift(c=-8)
MergeChroma(awarpsharp2(depth=48))
McTemporalDenoise(settings="very high")

I would prefer to put the ChromaShift(c=-8).MergeChroma(awarpsharp2(depth=48)) after MCTD but I just get a green screen when I do that.

It should have been deinterlaced before MCTD but I was just doing a quicky test and there was hardly any motion in the clip.

[zerowalker]

Hmm, i did chromashift myself, but with -4, not c=-8 though, but it was going to the Left.

Then i used MCTD, on low, then QTGMC to deinterlace, but QTGMC makes it, blurry, fudgy or what to call it;S

And what do you think of the 3DNR?
i haven´t done a big test, but i think it looks better with it On then Off, i think it just removes the Noisy "overlay".

[jagabo]

You should deinterlace before MCTD. MCTD at very high was more than necessary but I was just looking at the shifting the chroma channels. I would skip the 3DNR on the VCR. MCTD will work far better.

[sanlyn]

@jagabo, thanks much for that. I haven't played with chromashift in some time. I better read up on it. I used QTGMC as well, + awarpsharp (well, you can't say you haven't taught me anything, in all this time). I didn't care for the clip as progressive, so I'm posting version "B" below, which is reinterlaced. I didn't have time to plug in everything for MCTD on my new PC, but likely it smoothed a lot of that "crackling" around the girl's arm and hand.

So you think it´s much more stable, wavyness etc sanlyn?

and your denoising looks good, how do you make it look, well, Static?
Mine looks something like this.

Your previous sample had some really bad wiggles and ripples everywhere. This clip apparently has some sloppy mastering, but at least it doesn't simmer and jitter all over the screen.

I'd follow jagabo's suggestion with MCTemporalDenoise, and this re-interlaced version "B" below would be a lot "quieter", but I haven't finished building this new PC I'm using. The line cleaning work I did is probably overkill, but the line art was looking somewhat vague in spots. Here's my script:

# ######################################################################
#
# VirtualDub filters added on Avisynth output:
# - NeatVideo v3 (noise sample from a similar video)
# - FlaXen VHS: chroma left -3, up -2, all others off
# - deFlicker 1.3b1: window 0, soft 8, interlaced yes, scene change 256
#
# #####################################################################

ppath="D:\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\"
Import(ppath+"QTGMC-3.32.avs")
Import(ppath+"FastLineDarken 1.3.avs")
Import(ppath+"RemoveSpots.avs")
# ----- Load old mvtools 1.5.1 -----
# ----- for old FastLineDarken ----- 
LoadPlugin(ppath+"masktools.dll")

AviSource("E:\forum\TBC_DNR\SV-121 TBC+3DNR.avi")

ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
AssumeBFF().QTGMC(Preset="fast")
santiag(1,1)
mergechroma(awarpsharp2(depth=10, type=1, blur=1, chroma=4))
dehalo_alpha(ry=2,rx=2,darkstr=0.6,brightstr=1.0)
FastLineDarken()
RemoveSpots()
TTempSmooth()
LSFMod()
ConvertToRGB32(interlaced=false)
Crop(0,0,-2,-14).AddBorders(2,6,0,8)
# ----- re-interlace ------
AssumeBFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()


# ---- Clean remaining spots from "rip" fix -----
a1=last
a2=a1
b0=a1
b01=a2.FreezeFrame(9,9,8).BadFrames(10,blend=true).Crop(312,350,-376,-206)
b02=Overlay(b0,b01,x=312,y=350)
a3=ReplaceFramesSimple(a1,b02,mappings="9 10")

return a3

The last few lines are a manual fix for a small rip in frames 9 & 10 that the plugins didn't fix completely. As filtered, the rip on the girl's arm and hand shows up as distracting spots on her sleeve (I hate spots). Here's the rip in frame 10 of the original clip:


[Attachment 13575 - Click to enlarge]

I also note that when you made this clip edit in VirtualDub that red and blue are crushed at both sides of the histogram. This can be often make denoising somewhat difficult in the darkest and brightest areas:


[Attachment 13576 - Click to enlarge]

Another learning experience. Meanwhile I think your new acquisition seems like a better player.

[zerowalker]

Okay, but lordsmurf says that the 3DNR often can clean Chroma Noise, which is very hard afterwards?
Are you aware of that?

(i myself can´t say it does or how well it does this, just know that he has told me this, though it may depend on the VCR i guess)

[zerowalker]

I saved in YV12 which can be why it´s crushed?
though i don´t think so, as it´s PAL;S

But Lagarith may have decoded as RGB for some reason and recompressed to YV12.

But with the Rip on her sleeve, this happens every once and than, i don´t know, is it just how it should be?
i mean, nothing is perfect right?

[sanlyn]

If you set VirtualDub compression for Lagarith but didn't specify YV12, Lagarith defaults to RGB. The clip came to us as RGB.

Spots and rips are just a pet peeve of mine. But sometimes they appear in frightful places, like right in the middle of someone's face.

DNR works differently on different players. It has nothing to do with crushed or out-of-spec levels and colors.

[jagabo]

I also note that when you made this clip edit in VirtualDub that red and blue are crushed at both sides of the histogram.

The crush at the bottom is all in the overscan area. Red at the top is mostly in the girl's hair. RGB histograms are pretty useless.

[zerowalker]

If you set VirtualDub compression for Lagarith but didn't specify YV12, Lagarith defaults to RGB. The clip came to us as RGB.

Spots and rips are just a pet peeve of mine. But sometimes they appear in frightful places, like right in the middle of someone's face.

DNR works differently on different players. It has nothing to do with crushed or out-of-spec levels and colors.

I have specified YV12, but Lagarith seems to fail if it´s working with the UT codec for some reason.

so spots and rips are just, like noise?
you can´t do much?

i didn´t mean that the DNR crushed but the Lagarith "fail"sampling.

But do you guys want a clip with motion to see how the 3DNR works?
if it´s good, or if it just fail?

[sanlyn]

I have specified YV12, but Lagarith seems to fail if it´s working with the UT codec for some reason.

i didn´t mean that the DNR crushed but the Lagarith "fail"sampling.

Crushing occurs when out of spec levels and colors exist in the original. Lagarith doesn't crush or change colors, etc., it just compresses whatever it sees. The histogram showed me that luma was OK, well within tolerance, but red and green were out of bounds. In anime that might not matter much, but in video with more subtle detail it can destroy fine textures in the brights and darks. You correct that in YUV before you bringing it into VirtualDub if you're going to process in RGB. I don't know how you made the clip, but normally I don't risk color conversion at all. I cut a piece of video as follows:

AviSource("whatever.avi")
Trim(7509,8906)   # <- whatever number of frames

Open that in VirtualDub to check if it's what you want, then use "color depth" set to what you want (YV12), set compression to Lagarith (YV12 or whatever), then use "fast recompress". There are other methods, but that's usually what I do.

so spots and rips are just, like noise?
you can´t do much?

It's noise due to physical damage. Happens with tape on a regular basis. You can use plugins like DeVCR or RemoveSpots, and if you're really picky you use manual fixes like the one I used. DeVCR and RemoveSpots can fix much of it; but motion or damage that persists for several frames or fields can throw them off.

Original capture (damage in upper right corner):

[Attachment 13580 - Click to enlarge]

after RemoveSpots() and color correction, etc.:

[Attachment 13582 - Click to enlarge]

There was similar damage in the lower left a few frames later, but the girl moved and RemoveSpots() was "fooled", missing it. Had to fix that one manually.

But do you guys want a clip with motion to see how the 3DNR works?
if it´s good, or if it just fail?

That's up to you, but the 3DNR usually won't fix damage like that shown above. But you never know.

[zerowalker]

Ah i see, but how can i improve the Luma?
Or well i know how i can Change it, but what can i improve?
Lower Contrast etc?

If everything is correct within it´s limits, it´s probably the White Crush i need to tweak, and that is a hell of a setting;S

That's up to you, but the 3DNR usually won't fix damage like that shown above. But you never know.

Didn´t mean that 3DNR will fix rips and stuff, but that it will "fix" chroma noise, leaking a bit.

here is what Lordsmurf said about it:

DNR doesn't really remove details -- it removes noise. The problem is that a lot of people mistakenly consider grain and errant noise to be the "detail" of the picture. It's an optical illusion, however. The TBC/DNR also removes chroma noise, which is the ugly red/blue shimmering hazy mess that infests the image on VHS-based formats.


That was what made me Rethink about using the 3DNR, otherwise i would probably not care to use it.

[jagabo]

it´s probably the White Crush i need to tweak

It's a combination of the brightness and saturation of the girl's hair. I would have to see more video from the same source, but it looks like it can stand to be darkened a bit. Try ColorYUV(off_y=-15). That will bring the hair down to legal (just barely) RGB limits. The black level isn't a problem in your video -- it only goes too low in the black borders. You can prevent those from going below IRE 0 with opt="coring" in ColorYUV.

You don't have much of the red/blue shimmering chroma noise in your caps. MCTD will work much better than any svhs deck's 3DNR. If you don't plan on filtering your videos after capturing, then use the deskc 3DNR.