Well, VHS capturing Mostly cartoons, having some questions:)

[sanlyn]

Almost all the edge noise I see is quickie flutter from the original VCR and grainy tape noise: it's more boiling grain than anything else, plus some occasional vertical gray bars from the antenna. And so much noise you can't even tell what's happening. I'm running a piece thru MC TemporalDenoise right now so I can even see what's going on. I don't see how a consumer-level tbc could correct most of it. Recorded in 1992 on that godawful grainy SONY "HiFi" tape. Waiting for some results now.

In the past I had better grade retail tapes that had flagrantly bent verticals. I captured them and threw them out years ago. Still looking for a remnant, maybe an old before/after capture.

[sanlyn]

What I get now from this video is some ragged sawtooth eges, but no wiggles worth mentioning. I clearly recall playing this tape in 2004 with an older VCR, and the walls in this scene were wigglin'. Now, they're just noisy -- and playing years back with worn video heads didn't help.

The scene nI'm looking for had some cue sticks standing against a wall, with definite bends and wrinkles. They sure weren't straight; they moved and shimmered, and wiggles ran up and down the length of the sticks. I can't get that effect from the players I'm using.

I have one scene now with a guy behind a grand piano, the support that held the piano's lid up high had wrinkles and bends in it. Now it's straight, even without the tbc. Shucks.

Will keep looking.

[jagabo]

Almost all the edge noise I see is quickie flutter from the original VCR and grainy tape noise: it's more boiling grain than anything else, plus some occasional vertical gray bars from the antenna. And so much noise you can't even tell what's happening.... I don't see how a consumer-level tbc could correct most of it.

A line TBC isn't supposed to fix that type of noise. All it's supposed to do is resize and line up the scanlines so they aren't wiggling left to right all the time.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/306272-Computer-video-capture-vs-vcr-to-dvd-combo?p...=1#post1882662

The animaged image in that post is a 4x enlargement, slowed down to 4 fps.

[sanlyn]

Right, I've seen that demo and kept a copy of it somewhere. The lines I'm seeing resemble the line on the right in that video. Just more noise everywhere no bends or left-right movement, just dancing grain and fuzz. I'm looking for something more extreme that that. Like bent cue sticks that wiggle like snakes.

Few tbc's can clean all the edge noise, especially with damaged tape and crappy recording. I don't know if any of my three deceased JVC's could do it. None of them would play the tape. I imagine an ES15 might calm them down.

[sanlyn]

jagabo, I think I'd best move this discussion later to one of the earlier tbc threads, or we'll get sidetracked from zerowalker's project. Besides, my capture setup is unlike his (hers? Have to be politically correct nowadays!).

But to satisfy anyone's curiosity: the two samples below were recorded 1992 on a cheap VCR instead of my primary unit (out for maintenance). The broadcast traveled thru the JFK/LaGuardia air corridor, down the antenna wires in my building, thru a $10 Radio Shack antenna amp, over another 125 feet of cheap antenna wire, into the cheapo VCR. Played here on a Panasonic PV-4662 to an ATI A.I.W. Radeon 7500. Composite only, no pass-thru. NTSC AVI/YUY2/Lagarith.

http://dc543.4shared.com/download/tqdSS6lu/PH1_sample2.avi
http://dc583.4shared.com/download/-EBFySiV/PH1_sample1.avi

I might have to try a camcorder on this. My JVC's wouldn't play it. Obvious edge shimmer and other stuff, but I can't get a strong "wiggle" with my players. Much stronger rippling was present when I played this in 2004 on another VCR.

And you thought you had problem tapes.

[jagabo]

It's a little hard to tell with all that noise, but those videos have the usual amount of time base jitter you get from VHS. One field (bob), 4x nearest neighbor enlargement, 4 fps:

[sanlyn]

Yes. That video used no tbc. The Toshiba and the SONY ES20 both cleaned somewhat, but I don't think a pass-thru (or even a VCR-with-TBC) can entirely smooth it. The signal itself had a lot of shimmer and some of that junk is from the VCR that recorded it. One of my old JVC 7600's played about 4 seconds of the tape before it came to a dead stop and spit out the tape. Those 4 seconds were a total smear, and a lot of the shimmy was still there (and the JVC bit into the tape at the point where it stopped. So I had to cut that portion of the titles from the DVD I finally made, which has to be reworked. No player has been able to replay that damaged spot, which was elsewhere on the tape. After the JVC did that to another, more valuable tape, the JVC went out the door). That line has jittery edges, but it's more or less straight-up. On the old VCR, the disturbances were much worse, with distinct curves and bends.

This tape would be a project in itself. Guess we better get back to zerowalker. I'll try to find a VCR that gives more serious wrinkles, not just edge jitter.

Might be able to give it a try with a borrowed webcam. Even then, I don't think many of those edges will stay put without a nice $5000 pro unit. But that would be another project that I should pursue elsewhere.

[jagabo]

Then why do you say you don't have time base jitter on your VCRs?

Folks, I have DVD machines and 3 VCR's connected all over the room, and managed to find 4 really crappy looking old home-made tapes. But all the VCR's I own play them with no wiggles.

Almost all the edge noise I see is quickie flutter from the original VCR and grainy tape noise: it's more boiling grain than anything else, plus some occasional vertical gray bars from the antenna.

The lines I'm seeing resemble the line on the right in that video. Just more noise everywhere no bends or left-right movement, just dancing grain and fuzz.

A line TBC can fix the time base errors from both the recording VCR and the playback VCR. Obviously, if the video is very noisy it gets harder to fix the time base because there's noise in the sync pulses as well as the picture. The line TBC is only for fixing the time base errors, not other noise in the video. That's a job for the noise filter (if available).

[sanlyn]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply there's no time-base problem at all. I'm saying that my remaining VCR's have far more stable playback than the former ones. A fuzzy-nervous line is one thing, but smearing, curling, bending, etc., are something else:



BTW, how did you make those neat 4fps demos? Is there a link or software for that?

[jagabo]

how did you make those neat 4fps demos? Is there a link or software for that?

After AviSynth filters I used VirtualDub's File -> Export -> Animated GIF.

[sanlyn]

Shucks, why didn't I think of that? Thank you.

[zerowalker]

I don´t mind you showing tapes, i find it interesting to compare it, and learning stuff from it

Btw, i still haven´t found the Grounding, it seems like it can be inside the Drum, so i am going to try to manually clean the VCR.

I read about it, but there is many different versions, some recommend cleaning tapes, some say they ruin the VCR, some say Paper, some say another material etc.

What do you recommend, as i know you guys have much knowledge, and can trust you more than some random youtube clip.

Thanks

[sanlyn]

The articles you've seen that recommend cleaning with special pads/fluid (or alcohol) for VCR head cleaning is the way to go. Cleaning-tapes are just too dangerous IMO.

[zerowalker]

Could you link to a video or something, so i can follow a guide, as i am not very sure what materials to use as the heads are sensitive.

[zerowalker]

guess i will go with the non-cotton dipped in alcohol and gently rotate the head clockwise method?

Can i use microfiber?

And if i can, is there a special way of cleaning microfiber, as i use it to clean a CPU some time ago after letting some surface solution lie on it.
And haven´t done anything to clean the microfiber, just let it lie in a wardrobe.

[sanlyn]

NEVER USE COTTON SWABS on video heads.
NEVER USE FIBROUS CLOTH on video heads.
NEVER USE MICROFIBER, FOAM, SOCKS, etc. on video heads.

There are non-fibrous chamois-tipped cleaning swabs or sticks available for about $10 USD.

[Attachment 12995 - Click to enlarge]


But the safest and most simple cleaning tool is a small piece of plain white printer paper or copy paper. You can use cotton swabs to clean other parts of the VCR (audio heads, rollers, etc.) but never on video heads. The fibers of fibrous material will catch on the small tips of the heads and rip them off. Also, if you see any grease or oily sections, do not remove the lubricant, even if it looks soiled.

Video of a young British kid cleaning webcam heads and then VCR heads with a piece of plain white paper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvBOCkWUlL8

Video of someone using plain paper/alcohol to clwan video drum heads, then using cotton swabs on other parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccjt5C4NJKY&feature=related

[zerowalker]

Oh thanks for telling!
Was almost sure that Microfiber is the way to go, but was a bit skeptic with how it felt, as it´s like Static or something, and i know that hte heads or extremely sensitive.

Will look on those videos!

Though i need to buy some Alcohol, i guess 99% is the way to go?

[sanlyn]

Use 85% alcohol or better. Lower grades leave an oily, alkaline residue. Specialized head cleaning fluid is available, but not necessary. MAny who use plain paper or chamois don't use any fluid at all. I've used high-grade alcohol as well as head cleaning fluid, and I've also used no fluid.

VCR cleaning tapes do more dirt "smearing" than cleaning, and they are abrasive (regardless of what the advertising claims).

[jagabo]

Here's a short sample of "comets" from the VCR with the grounding problem.

[zerowalker]

Okey, will go with that then.

Yeah read about that aswell with Cleaning Tapes, and i have use them, don´t know if they work or not, but it sounds like the machine is burning, and i know that manually you can do more precise work and it´s safer, so better learn how to do it the proper way.

Where do you buy Alcohol?
How much does it cost?
How much is it in the bottle?

[zerowalker]

Here's a short sample of "comets" from the VCR with the grounding problem.

Mine is much less severe, after i have done a proper cleaning, i will capture a sample where the audio may go down right after some black stripes, and maybe a frame lag.

It´s a bit random, the frame lag and audio fall can come like 2 times in 1 min maybe.

[jagabo]

You can get isopropyl alcohol at the drugstore.

By the way, you can get rid of comets by making 3 caps then use a median filter. That will also get rid of some of the noise. I don't have three caps of that clip but you can simulate it for purposes of showing how a median filter works:

import("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Median.avs")
AviSource("comets.avi") 
MedianOf3(last, Trim(last,1,0), Trim(last,2,0))

[zerowalker]

Yeah i know, ti´s the only place i can think of anyway.
But aren´t the bottles microscopic there?

[jagabo]

Yeah i know, ti´s the only place i can think of anyway.
But aren´t the bottles microscopic there?

We have a 16 ounce bottle. You only need a few drops.

[zerowalker]

Thanks, but don´t think i would like to use that solution, if the vcr is broken i will get a new

Hmm, maybe we got more choices as well, was a long time ago, will buy it in the week.

Here is a sample with black stripes, and a lag frame.

Added pretty much the same scene but a bit shorter, from later in the capture (rewinded).
So you can compare the black stripes.
Though the brightness is different thanks to White Crush.

[zerowalker]

Okay i didn´t find any Alcohol in the Drug store, so i bought something else.
http://chess.lahega.se/getDocument.axd?id=1198&language=S&docType=15
It´s in Swedish, but i don´t get if it´s what i want, it says.

Denaturated Ethanol 60-100%, that doesn´t tell me anything;S
Is it alcohol or or something special?

[jagabo]

It appears to be a mix of ethanol, ethyl acetate, methyl ethyl ketone, 2 propanol, and isobutyl alcohol. I don't know if all of those are ok for head cleaning. They will all evaporate without leaving any residue.

[zerowalker]

Okay, that was the only thing i currently got hold of.
But if they will all evaporate, doesn´t that mean it will just kill and remove the dirt, than disappear, meaning it will be safe?

Or maybe it´s harsh and will hurt the vcr material?

[sanlyn]

I don 't think ketones should be allowed near any plastic or rubber objects. They are highly flammable, more than alcohol. What you want would be the equivalent of plain isopropyl alcohol.

I see on the 'net that isopropyl alcohol isn't sold in Sweden or in a few other European countries, including the UK.
Over here we also call it "rubbing alcohol", used in all hospitals and commonly in athletic/massage applications. It's so common we can buy it everywhere, often in generic brands that are so cheap it's practically free. I looked around the 'net, it seems ethyl alcohol is sold in some hardware/paint shops. You don't want paint solvents, acetone, ketones, or oil-based paint thinners or strippers. I think a pharmacy should have what are called "surgical spirits" or surgical cleaners in the UK and France; some are mostly ethanol-based. DO NOT use anything designed to remove nail polish.

You don't really need alcohol to clean video heads if using paper as shown in the demo videos. For other parts, cotton swab and plain water should do (but not for video heads).

[zerowalker]

Okay, will not use it then, will keep it for some other cleaning uses that may come up.

eah the Isopropyl seems to not be available to easy, but from what i understand it has some different names, Apoteket(drug store) cal it Isopropylalcohol, or something like that. But i think there is something similar available in car stores (where you fuel the car, don´t know the name). Called T-Röd, not sure that the english name is (T-Red?), but it´s 95% Ethanol i think.

Isopropyl seem to be available in one store though, but it´s quite expensive, well not very, here it it: http://www.kjell.com/sortiment/hus-halsa-fritid/ovrigt/kemi-spray/isopropanol-isopropy...alkohol-p18303

Ren isopropanol / Isopropylalkohol (99,5%). Används för rengöring av bandtransport (tonhuvuden, videotrummor, gummirullar)
Translated:
Pure Isopraponal / Isopropylalcohol (99,5%). Used for cleaning of tapetransport (Auidio head, video drum and rubber rollers).

Then some more information, but just from that it seems to be what i am looking for?


I know that he used only paper, but isn´t it better with alcohol and do proper cleaning?
Even if it´s a small difference, i think it can come to good use for future use.