Well, VHS capturing Mostly cartoons, having some questions:)

[zerowalker]

Okay here is some other samples.

2 Passthrough, one with Composite and one with S-video.

S-video is the only one who has the Bright issue it seems*

(Also the Passthrough corrected an error in the tape transfer, the lines where messed up for one frame).

The other Sample is without passthrough in composite.

[jagabo]

You can't be sure at this point if the DVD recorder is changing the levels/colors at the s-video output, or if your card is capturing s-video differently than composite.

The DVD recorder doesn't seem to be doing much to fix the time base. Does it have multiple inputs? Sometimes only one input has the TBC.

[zerowalker]

Okay i think the Toshiba has some cheap Composite to S-Video.
Atleast that´s what i get from looking at these 2 samples.

One is from an old VCR-DVD combo i had lying around with S-video output.
The other is the Toshiba.

You can't be sure at this point if the DVD recorder is changing the levels/colors at the s-video output, or if your card is capturing s-video differently than composite.

The DVD recorder doesn't seem to be doing much to fix the time base. Does it have multiple inputs? Sometimes only one input has the TBC.

Very true, the samples tells me the card is making something up atleast.

Yes the DVD has 3 inputs, Front -RCA,Comp,S-video.
Back: RCA,Comp,S-video
Back2:Scart

And 2 outputs

Back:RCAx2,comp,s-video
Back2: Scart (Comp,RGB).

[jagabo]

Take those last two caps and apply a very strong temporal only filter (Temporal Smoother in VirtualDub is a good choice for this). Since the background is motionless the temporal filter will remove noise but not any picture details. Zoom into the images and you'll see that the Toshiba's filtering has removed some very fine detail.

[zerowalker]

It also apply that Herringbone noise, so i can conclude that it´s not my Capture Card.
But i think it´s weird that an old Vhs combo produce better output than Toshibas DVD Recorder, which should be alot better in quality if you atleast think about how it´s made.

Not sure what to do, as it can´t be a ground loop as the composite is fine.
So if it´s like game consoles, some cheap composite to s-video, i am afraid that it will be the same on an S-VHS with S-video;S

[jagabo]

But i think it´s weird that an old Vhs combo produce better output than Toshibas DVD Recorder

I doesn't surprise me. Consumer electronics has become a race to the bottom as people almost always buy the cheaper product. But be sure to test all inputs and outputs of the DVD recorder. As I noted earlier, the TBC may only be active on one input.

Not sure what to do, as it can´t be a ground loop as the composite is fine.
So if it´s like game consoles, some cheap composite to s-video, i am afraid that it will be the same on an S-VHS with S-video;S

Keep in mind that you care capturing VHS which has only about 360x576 luma resolution and 50x288 chroma resolution. So any slight blurring the comb filter causes is immaterial.

[zerowalker]

I doesn't surprise me. Consumer electronics has become a race to the bottom as people almost always buy the cheaper product. But be sure to test all inputs and outputs of the DVD recorder. As I noted earlier, the TBC may only be active on one input.

Will do that.

Keep in mind that you care capturing VHS which has only about 360x576 luma resolution and 50x288 chroma resolution. So any slight blurring the comb filter causes is immaterial.

True, but i want to make the best out of the tapes i got, and S-Video is something i really want to get working.

[jagabo]

Keep in mind that you care capturing VHS which has only about 360x576 luma resolution and 50x288 chroma resolution. So any slight blurring the comb filter causes is immaterial.

True, but i want to make the best out of the tapes i got, and S-Video is something i really want to get working.

Does your Funai DVD Combo output s-video when playing VHS tapes? If you capture that do you see the herringbone noise?

[zerowalker]

Does your Funai DVD Combo output s-video when playing VHS tapes? If you capture that do you see the herringbone noise?

Sadly, it´s DVD only:S

But i get Herringbone noise with Toshiba even when i play DVDs.

It seems like it´s Mono audio and stuff on the VCR part, so it´s only the DVD part that is "good"

[jman98]

Geez, guys. This thread started over a year ago and has 638 posts right now.

zerowalker - Dude, if you can't figure this crap out after 1 year and 638+ posts, maybe it's LONG past time to just accept what you are doing as "good enough" and get on with your life. 7 posts TODAY? Um, maybe you are taking this WAY too seriously. And you can just buy damn DVDs of King Of The Hill instead of spending the rest of your life trying to do this perfectly.

jagabo - Has the thought occurred to you that at this point maybe you are just enabling him rather than helping him?

It's your private party guys at this point rather than being of any real use to the rest of us, but jagabo, maybe you need to consider if you're really helping by encouraging zerowalker's insanity here. This long ago stopped being rational.

[zerowalker]

It´s up to you if you don´t think this is of use.
I know that it´s pretty much of balance, but it´s been easier to add up to old posts as new issue and more knowledge has come to place.
It´s not like i am capturing the same way i did before without even the understanding why 720x576 was used instead of a 4/3 aspect.

jagabo has helped me Alot since the beginning, and i think he himself has learned a thing or 2, for example Hannover bars which i think none of us understood what it was until far into the thread.

If people here want me to start a new thread with the new issues coming up, i will surely do so.

[sanlyn]

This isn't the only post that's gone on for a while. I'm not complaining.

OK, that Toshiba isn't an RD-XS34, and is "newer" than the D-R2. It's possible the "3" has tbc on line 1 only, like Panasonics do (my ES20 and my deceased ES15 has tbc only on Line 1).

I've had some disturbances and headaches show up on copy-protected material. Most retail tapes and DVDs have some form of copy protection . It comes in many flavors, but it never fails to cause problems, even when a pass-thru or outboard TBC allows you to record. I've seen it all, fluctuation colors, grays bars on borders, rolling FM lines, etc. When those are just "played", you can even sosme problems on a TV. When they get recorded, well, that's something else. I have a project now that's giving me fits over levels and horrible color for the first 45 minutes of a tape, then the copy protect effects fade quickly for the rest of the video. Adding my proc amp in the circuit displayed even more problems! So I couldn't even try fixing levels with that, I had to use my capture card's very limited controls.

Sorry I can't hook up some gear and investigate with real hardware for a few days. I have the Toshiba "2" but a friend used to have the "3", and they looked and behaved exactly the same way as far as I could tell. I also have a cheapo SONY vcr in storage somewhere - frankly, it' so bad I used it only for really damaged tape out of fear I'd hurt my better players. I'll try to dig that up, as well.

[zerowalker]

OK, that Toshiba isn't an RD-XS34, and is "newer" than the D-R2. It's possible the "3" has tbc on line 1 only, like Panasonics do (my ES20 and my deceased ES15 has tbc only on Line 1).

I tried a capture on the Front, which is AV 4, and i can´t say that i saw any difference, except from black lines all over hte place, but i am pretty sure it was the tracking system on the vcr, as it changed when i increased/decreased it.

I've had some disturbances and headaches show up on copy-protected material. Most retail tapes and DVDs have some form of copy protection . It comes in many flavors, but it never fails to cause problems, even when a pass-thru or outboard TBC allows you to record. I've seen it all, fluctuation colors, grays bars on borders, rolling FM lines, etc. When those are just "played", you can even sosme problems on a TV. When they get recorded, well, that's something else. I have a project now that's giving me fits over levels and horrible color for the first 45 minutes of a tape, then the copy protect effects fade quickly for the rest of the video. Adding my proc amp in the circuit displayed even more problems! So I couldn't even try fixing levels with that, I had to use my capture card's very limited controls.

I get it with everything, even when i hook up my Xbox with S-video or Composite, doesn´t matter.
So don´t think it´s copy protection, though i have a tape that seems to be copy protected as with the passthrough the top Bends, but without passthrough it doesn´t.

Sorry I can't hook up some gear and investigate with real hardware for a few days. I have the Toshiba "2" but a friend used to have the "3", and they looked and behaved exactly the same way as far as I could tell. I also have a cheapo SONY vcr in storage somewhere - frankly, it' so bad I used it only for really damaged tape out of fear I'd hurt my better players. I'll try to dig that up, as well.

No problem, take your time with it, and give me an update when you get to try it out

[zerowalker]

Okay i am starting to have these Black stripes, i think it´s the VCR.
Anyone have any idea?

It´s just black stripes appearing where lines with "information" should be, they come and go as fast as the lines come and goes.

[jagabo]

Horizontal or vertical? How thick? How long? Same place every time? Any white lines? Head cleaning?

[zerowalker]

Horizontal, from Left to right (shoudl be horizontal)
they are as thick as the other lines i think.

I did use a cleaning tape now. will see if it´s any better;O

[zerowalker]

Okay, i looked at a new recording vs same place from maybe yesterday.

It´s like the VCR has some Anti-TBC activated all of sudden, some serious stuff;S

And i am Not using passthrough on now, or the old i compared with;S

Okay, wrong picture, the stable one Is passthrough, but i don´t get many black stripes on the non-passthrough before;S

[jagabo]

The stripes you're talking about are like the one between the letters T and A in STARS, in the first picture?

[zerowalker]

Yes precisely, they come and go all over the place randomly, not all the time, but they are there.

[zerowalker]

I am having some tracking problems aswell, it´s another tape though.
But i am wondering, is there a way to tweak in manually without guessing?
As i can´t see any numbers or anything, i have to go after the picture and sound, which is very hard if there is noise and cracking to begin with;S

Though i think this is the cause of the VCR, will try some more with tapes i have played before to be sure.

[jagabo]

Yes precisely, they come and go all over the place randomly, not all the time, but they are there.

I call those comets. I had a VCR with that problem before. A good whack would eliminate them for a while but they would come back. It turns out there was a leaf spring for grounding between the motherboard and the drum assembly. Corrosion had built up and it wasn't grounding well. Soldering a ground wire between the motherboard and drum assembly fixed it.

http://www.fixya.com/support/t151239-major_dropout

[zerowalker]

I am not good with electronics, but are you saying i should get a wire(that can lead electricity), and solder it on the drum assembly(what is that;S?), and the other end on the motherboard(where on it?)?

I am not totally of with this, but if you can explain more Simple, i can probably do it, if it´s not something advanced of course.
But i can begin with opening the VCR and have a look i guess.

[zerowalker]

Okay her is a picture of my VCR opened:

[jagabo]

Look to see how the big metal assembly with the drum is attached to the brown PCB. There's probably a leaf spring ground. You can try just cleaning it -- ie where the free end of the spring contacts the metal assembly or the PCB. That will probably work for a while.

[zerowalker]

So it´s under it, as i have been looking all over the place.
Do i have to disassemble everything, as i can´t see how i will be able to get it back in one piece;S

EDIT:

Is this it?
It looks more like a cover for a cable tough.

[jagabo]

That looks like it's just a shield over the ribbon cable that runs from the PCB to the drum. Is there a connection between the L shaped shield and the drum assembly?

Although the grounding solution worked for me, there could be other causes.

[zerowalker]

That looks like it's just a shield over the ribbon cable that runs from the PCB to the drum. Is there a connection between the L shaped shield and the drum assembly?

Although the grounding solution worked for me, there could be other causes.

Yes there is a flat cable there.
And i don´t know if it´s connected somwhere, as i can´t see, if it is, it must be beneath the drum.
cause as i look at it, the drum assembly is just standing on plastic poles, can´t really see any metallic connection except for the Metallic vcr things that are here and there.

[zerowalker]

I still haven´t been able to locate it. I can´t seem to be able to remove the bottom plate either.
Does anyone know of a video or image that can show examples of how to find it?
Cause either i am blind, or it must be beneath the Assembly.

(btw does aluminium foil work for grounding?)

[sanlyn]

Folks, I have DVD machines and 3 VCR's connected all over the room, and managed to find 4 really crappy looking old home-made tapes. But all the VCR's I own play them with no wiggles. I just don't have a cheapo VCR that makes the tapes look worse than they did when they were recorded on crappy old cheapo VCR's I used to have. The tapes do have flicker and edge noise (they were recorded off antenna), but that noise is imbedded in the original recording and/or the antenna broadcast: no consumer-level tbc or pass-thru will repair that. The R-DK2, the ES20 and the RD-XS34 cut a little flutter noise, but that's it. I'm looking for a cheap VCR with really bad playback, can't find one. I'll try contacting some more friends at our local movie club. One of them must have a "typical" old VCR somewhere that adds wiggles and jitter to crappy old tape noise.

Rebuilt VCR's that I tried: Panasonic PV-4662, PV-4661, PV-4561, from 1995-96. I can't erven get a wiggle out of my old PV-8662, which mistracks and skips frames anyway (yeah, I know; it's busted. I don't use it any more).

[jagabo]

Folks, I have DVD machines and 3 VCR's connected all over the room, and managed to find 4 really crappy looking old home-made tapes. But all the VCR's I own play them with no wiggles.

That's simply not possible. All helical scan devices have some horizontal time base jitter unless a line TBC is used. Post a short cap with a nice sharp vertical edge.