Well, VHS capturing Mostly cartoons, having some questions:)

[sanlyn]

The R-Dx series has two noise filters in the "Recorder Settings" menu. One is Y/C on or off. The Y/C component is ignored if s-video is on input, whether you have it turned on or not (This is also noted in the user manual). The other is called "Record DNR" and has 3 settings: Off, On, Expanded.

Some models also have "Playback DNR" filters in a separate playback settings menu, with 4 settings: On/Off, 3-D DNR, Mosquito Noise, Block Noise. From all I can tell, they appear to be temporal blurring filters. Despite the fact that it's named "Playback DNR" and not "Record", I see effects during capture if they're turned on.

[zerowalker]

Yes it does, or alteast i turned of one option that said 3D Noise Reduction (or similar).

I will upload a clip i uploaded before, but can´t find it, i think sanlyn will remember it, i think it´s from another thread.
And let´s see what you think about it.

[sanlyn]

Yes it does, or alteast i turned of one option that said 3D Noise Reduction (or similar).

Yes, leave that one off. It might help on really clean, pristine tapes in first class condition - but I still think too much denoising makes most taped videos look rather strange -- sterile and denuded.

[zerowalker]

Okay, i got herringbone noise on this one aswell;S
Not sure if why i get it, if it´s power noise or if it´s the machine;S

Yeah agree there, and i tend to over denoise sadly.

[jagabo]

In case it wasn't clear, my comments about the noise reduction and herringbone noise weren't directly related. The passthrough cap is over filtered. A lot of small, low contrast detail has disappeared. So I guessed the noise filter was turned on. Unfortunately it also has added all that herringbone noise. So you have the worst of both worlds -- loss of true detail, added herringbone noise.

[zerowalker]

Yeah i know, this clip i added just now, has denoising turned off, and it´s connected like this.

VCR-> Scart out --> Scart in -> DVD -> S-video out - > S-video in - > Capture Card.

And both are connected to the same Power outlest extender.

But i got a Great Britain Outles to Europe Outlet converter added.

I am ot familiar at all with those outlets, it got 3 pins, and a white thing i don´t know what it is.

They stand on top of each other, if that matters*

[jagabo]

VCR-> Scart out --> Scart in -> DVD

Is that SCART s-video or composite?

[zerowalker]

It doesn´t support S-video, so it should be composite.

[zerowalker]

Here is two other clips.
I am not sure if the TBC is working or not here, and i only seem to get herringbone noise with S-video.

bob() Selecteven() has been used.

[jagabo]

I will upload a clip i uploaded before, but can´t find it, i think sanlyn will remember it, i think it´s from another thread.
And let´s see what you think about it.

That has a lot of time base jitter. That's after passing through the Toshiba DVD recorder?

[zerowalker]

That has a lot of time base jitter. That's after passing through the Toshiba DVD recorder?

Both are passing through the Toshiba.

[jagabo]

I am not sure if the TBC is working or not here, and i only seem to get herringbone noise with S-video.

What that's telling you is the comb filter in the TBC is not as good as the comb filter in your capture device.

[jagabo]

Both are passing through the Toshiba.

You need to be clear exactly what post your are referring too. That is a chronic problem with your posts. Use the quote feature.

[zerowalker]

I see, that´s sucked;S
I am gonna test it with my Xbox, to see if it´s not some kind of ground loop.

[jagabo]

I see, that´s sucked;S
I am gonna test it with my Xbox, to see if it´s not some kind of ground loop.

It's not a ground loop problem. You can tell because the herringbone noise is worst where colors are most saturated. So it's where the color signal is leaking into the luma signal.

There's still a lot of time base jitter. Is this a first generation tape?

[zerowalker]

Will do, edited the one above.

Yeah you are correct it´s not a ground loop (lucky that).
I tried the XBOX with Scart RGB to S-video (think it just goes to composite though), and it´s the same issue there.

But the Y/C must really be bad then, as it´s all over the place.

It should be a first generation tape, as it´s a commercial movie, not recorded.

[zerowalker]

Okay not sure what to make of it now.
I tried to feed the DVD with Xbox S-video (though as you have seen, it´s not True S-video).
And i still get the Herringbone noise all over the place.

I don´t think it´s the Y/C, cause wouldn´t it be totally disabled if both input and output is S-video?

[sanlyn]

That has a lot of time base jitter. That's after passing through the Toshiba DVD recorder?

Mmm, doesn't look like it. Looks like tape slippage and/or damaged tape. If you look at the lines where the image bends in frames 18-25 or so, the lines are still pretty smooth, no wiggles. In other frames, I don't see wiggle or ripple and not much image jitter. I had old tapes that did the same thing (And that was in a JVC 9911!), and a retail tape with slight "bends" of horizontals in one short scene with a slow camera zoom (that effect didn't happen when the same tape was played in another VCR). In 18-25 entire portions of the image are displaced, but the lines are smooth and unbroken. I'm surprised the image didn't rip somewhere.

I am not sure if the TBC is working or not here, and i only seem to get herringbone noise with S-video.

What that's telling you is the comb filter in the TBC is not as good as the comb filter in your capture device.

What herringbone noise? Those streaks are chroma noise. In the composite clip, luma and all the colors are hard clipped below RGB-0, which makes the chroma junk look worse. There's not as much of it in the s-video clip; luma and colors are still clipped, but not as badly.

Try it without the tbc and see what you get.

[zerowalker]

That has a lot of time base jitter. That's after passing through the Toshiba DVD recorder?

Mmm, doesn't look like it. Looks like tape slippage and/or damaged tape. If you look at the lines where the image bends in frames 18-25 or so, the lines are still pretty smooth, no wiggles. In other frames, I don't see any wiggle and not much image jitter. I had old tapes that did the same thing (And that was in a JVC 9911!), and a retail tape with slight "bends" of horizontals in one short scene with a slow camera zoom (that effect didn't happen when the same tape was played in another VCR). In 18-25 entire portions of the image are displaced, but the lines are smooth and unbroken. I'm surprised the image didn't rip somewhere.

Well that´s good then.
What do you mean with "rip somewhere?"

I am not sure if the TBC is working or not here, and i only seem to get herringbone noise with S-video.

What that's telling you is the comb filter in the TBC is not as good as the comb filter in your capture device.

What herringbone noise? Those streaks are chroma noise. In the composite clip, luma and all the colors are hard clipped below RGB-0, which makes the chroma junk look worse. There's not as much of it in the s-video clip; luma and colors are still clipped, but not as badly.

Try it without the tbc and see what you get.

Don´t really know what you mean with clipped below, do you mean that the S-video shows more details along with the herringbone noise, while the Composite will just blur everything?

I think the colors are totally different thanks to my settings, so will do another capture.

[jagabo]

Time base jitter (left edge of frame, 4x nearest neighbor enlargement, slowed to 2 fps):


Herringbone noise (PAL dot crawl):

[zerowalker]

Here are 3 clips.

The Another videos are passthrough.
Direct is directly from the VCR.

Jagabo, do i have timejitter or the passthrough?
Cause when i look, i think maybe it´s a bit more stable, but not very.

And the herringbone noise is indeed PAL dot crawl, but it´s all over the place, even when S-video is inputed.

[sanlyn]

Here are 3 clips.

That's a different tape. Yeah, motion looks smoother on the tbc's, but there's not much vertical to look at. I have to add this:
A consumer tbc can do what it will with a jumpy tape transport, clean it up a bit, but I don't have problems like these with my players or the Toshiba - or even with the ES20. I have an older VCR around, now in storage, that used to have tape jumping all over the place, and I think an old TV show tape with some bad timing issues. I'd have to dig that up. That will take a few days, though. Why I get better results, I can't say. But this bears looking into.

I don't see that much edge jitter in that toon except in the "bent portion". I don't think a pass-thru will straighten that, they do have their limits. For the badly damaged stuff, might be time for a JVC or Panasonic with a heavier tbc. But say bye-bye to detail and say hello to motion smear.

Why you're getting all that dot crawl thru that y/c ? ? ? ? I haven't seen it that bad on my captures. I'll have to find something that shows it as obviously as yours does.

[zerowalker]

Here are 3 clips.

That's a different tape. Yeah, motion looks smoother on the tbc's, but there's not much vertical to look at. I have to add this:
A consumer tbc can do what it will with a jumpy tape transport, clean it up a bit, but I don't have problems like these with my players or the Toshiba - or even with the ES20. I have an older VCR around, now in storage, that used to have tape jumping all over the place, and I think an old TV show tape with some bad timing issues. I'd have to dig that up. That will take a few days, though. Why I get better results, I can't say. But this bears looking into.

But say bye-bye to detail and say hello to motion smear.

Why you're getting all that dot crawl thru that y/c ? ? ? ? I haven't seen it that bad on my captures. I'll have to find something that shows it as obviously as yours does.

Yeah noticed afterwards that it was a big failure in scene choice, will try find a better and repeat it.
And yeah i understand that if it´s on the tape and not really a timing issue it will not be corrected. and of course they do have limits, it´s not some super professional equipment here.


But the other thing, about JVC blurring detail, i talked about it in another forum, and they say that it´s not real details going away, but more an illusion of detail.

I have seen some picture with the JVC DNR, and i personally can´t think of liking it when i looked at it. Haven´t tried it myself so can´t argue against it though.

here is the forum: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/21367-post8.html
Not much of a discussion though, but maybe you understand there point of argue on that topic with Denoising.

Also the Y/C, i don´t get how it´s so severe as well, and still don´t get how i get it with S-video in and out.
The only thing i can think of is that it´s very bad at handling PAL signals.

[zerowalker]

Here are 3 clips.

That's a different tape. Yeah, motion looks smoother on the tbc's, but there's not much vertical to look at. I have to add this:
A consumer tbc can do what it will with a jumpy tape transport, clean it up a bit, but I don't have problems like these with my players or the Toshiba - or even with the ES20. I have an older VCR around, now in storage, that used to have tape jumping all over the place, and I think an old TV show tape with some bad timing issues. I'd have to dig that up. That will take a few days, though. Why I get better results, I can't say. But this bears looking into.

But say bye-bye to detail and say hello to motion smear.

Why you're getting all that dot crawl thru that y/c ? ? ? ? I haven't seen it that bad on my captures. I'll have to find something that shows it as obviously as yours does.

Yeah noticed afterwards that it was a big failure in scene choice, will try find a better and repeat it.
And yeah i understand that if it´s on the tape and not really a timing issue it will not be corrected. and of course they do have limits, it´s not some super professional equipment here.


But the other thing, about JVC blurring detail, i talked about it in another forum, and they say that it´s not real details going away, but more an illusion of detail.

I have seen some picture with the JVC DNR, and i personally can´t think of liking it when i looked at it. Haven´t tried it myself so can´t argue against it though.

here is the forum: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/4296-jvc-s7500ek-pal-1.html
Not much of a discussion though, but maybe you understand there point of argue on that topic with Denoising.

It seems like it ruins the contrast levels, will try to see if i can solve it.

[sanlyn]

But the other thing, about JVC blurring detail, i talked about it in another forum, and they say that it´s not real details going away, but more an illusion of detail.

I have seen some picture with the JVC DNR, and i personally can´t think of liking it when i looked at it. Haven´t tried it myself so can´t argue against it though.

here is the forum: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/4296-jvc-s7500ek-pal-1.html
Not much of a discussion though, but maybe you understand there point of argue on that topic with Denoising.

I still remember that post, and many like it. There's continuous debate on the issue, and everyone is too stubbornly convinced to change their minds. It is, for lack of a better phrase, a fact of life. I, for one, will not argue against lordsmurf's knowledge and experience. Some might disagree on one point or other on occasion, but fundamentally he's ahead of most of us in many matters. Here is another's opinion about similar matters:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/346068-Panasonic-AG1980-Info?p=2161792&viewfull=1#post2161792

I don't think your samples were failures. The more you post, the more I'm beginning to get an eye for your various players. I should find some samples of my own, or make some, to illustrate a number of issues. That would take some time, however, as the players I use today track tapes too well to talk about what tbc pass-thru can and can't do. I haven't saved a non-tbc capture for several years. And both my JVC's died a few years back.

Still wondering about all that dot crawl. As for herringbone, I don't think y/c filters would work on that.

[zerowalker]

Okay, well i am not convinced that i will like motion smear against noiseness with more detail.
Will look through that post.

Ah okay, well good that it´s to some use.
May i ask what players you are using?
Well, i wouldn´t really capture non-tbc captures if i had a good tbc.
Not sure with this DVD, i have captured some more, and i can´t really see that the TBC is working.

And i ran in another issue, i added 2 pictures above*

The herringbone noise isn´t there to begin with, it´s improper Y/C filtering that makes it.

I think that PAL is better of without Y/C filtering for some reason, as with Y/C filtering, it adds Herringbone noise all over the place, and it´s better or worse depending on the filters.

My card it´s extremely bad on the Y/C filter, but if i turn it OFF it looks clean (as you have seen).

EDIT:

This is capture from a DVD movie, so the chain is like this: DVD->S-video out - > S-video in -> Capture card.
And i still get the herringbone noise. Check for yourself so it´s not me.

[jagabo]

This is capture from a DVD movie, so the chain is like this: DVD->S-video out - > S-video in -> Capture card.
And i still get the herringbone noise. Check for yourself so it´s not me.

Yeah, I think there's something wrong with your capture card's s-video processing.

[sanlyn]

Can you try it with composite into the card frm the pass-thru? Might not be as sharp, but better than mishandling the signal. At least that would give something to compare.

[zerowalker]

This is capture from a DVD movie, so the chain is like this: DVD->S-video out - > S-video in -> Capture card.
And i still get the herringbone noise. Check for yourself so it´s not me.

Yeah, I think there's something wrong with your capture card's s-video processing.

I hope you are wrong here..
But sadly it´s the same conclusion i got.

But do any of you have a PAL Device with S-video?
Want to be sure it isn´t a PAL issue.


And sanlyn, will do that.

[jagabo]

But do any of you have a PAL Device with S-video?
Want to be sure it isn´t a PAL issue.

I only have NTSC equipment.