Well, VHS capturing Mostly cartoons, having some questions:)

[zerowalker]

Is anyone here familiar with Video Tape Recorders?
As it seems the Video Cam that i got VHS of isn´t VHS to begin with, but instead smaller tapes.
I am thinking Video8?
Or is there anything else, like Mini-VHS or something?

And do these work pretty much the same?
Need a TBC etc?

Cause i think i can get a hold of the Camera and the tapes, and i will try out to Playback with the Camera, and if it doesn´t have a TBC inbuilt, i will play it through the DVD Recorder i am gonna get (does this work?).


EDIT:

Read that there seems to exist VHS-C, which i am starting to think is what the tapes originality comes from.
And if so, it seems like it can be "converted" to VHS without any signal difference.

[jagabo]

VHS-C is VHS in a smaller cassette. There are adapters that let you play them in regular VHS decks.
http://www.amazon.com/Maxell-290060-Cassette-VHS-C-Adapter/dp/B00012F6A6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS-C

VHS-C, Video8, Hi8 are all helical scan systems and will benefit from a TBC.

[zerowalker]

Yeah read about it

But can you give som facts on Video8, does it work the same as VHS?
Only info i got is, that it seem so have pretty high quality audio (like HiFi VHS).
And that it has pretty much same Picture Quality as VHS.

But i don´t know if it´s based on the same system, with sync pulses and all that stuff.

[jagabo]

All analog tape recorders record the raw video signal onto tape, then play it back. Everything is recorded, sync pulses, front porch, back porch, etc. But VHS, Beta, Video8, and Hi8 use different helical scan systems so different tapes and players are not compatible. Some D8 camcorders can play Hi8 tapes.

[zerowalker]

Ah see you added, or if i missed, the helican scan system in the first post.

But good, really love the system, even though i have no deep knowledge how it works, but i just find it fantastic how it become lines from rotating a magnetic tape (lines as in the 240 lines).

But nice that they all work the same so it will benefit.
As i do have some Video8 or if it´s Hi8 tapes from a friend, he wants me to transfer, but i don´t know if i even own the correct player.
Will have to wait till i get hold of the old Video Camera.

[zerowalker]

Okay, it seems like there is 2 cameras, one with Video8 and one with VHS-C.

Here is a cap of Video8.

Camera->Capture Card

Composite, and Mono.

I don´t know, but i think there seems to be some kind of TBC built in, or maybe i am just hoping it´s there?

And, it´s connected from AV out, where one cable becomes Composite and Mono Audio.

Please tell me about the picture, is it good, or do you think the player may cause the noise or is it just the tape?
Cause if you look at ds004, that´s when it´s only showing OSD from the camera, and it´s very unstable, i don´t know what the cause is.

This is the Camera: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samsung-VP-w60-video-camera-/290732746414?pt=UK_AudioTVElect...item43b105a6ae

[jagabo]

If you look at the left edge of the picture, the edge between the back porch and the picture, you'll see time base jitter. It's not nearly as bad as some of your other caps.

[zerowalker]

Can it be more stable than that?
Think the lines are very stable at the sides, but i don´t know how it looks like with a Line TBC though.
Is it flat?

[jagabo]

Can it be more stable than that?

Yes.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/232830-Test-of-various-VCRs-Image-Quality-from-VHS-...%28Big-Pics%29

[zerowalker]

Ah i see, so it´s pretty much flat?

But what do you think about the ds004 clip?
I can only think of it as either a bad signal or the capture card is bad at "decoding" it.

(I have noticed that my card really is bad with Composite, now just the Y/C stuff, but it seems as the Resolution is lower, i noticed it with XBOX, with S-video it´s clear as a day but with noise as it´s not true s-video, but with composite, text and small details are "melting" together or what to call it)

Oh, and you can see on the first clip, that there is a TBC problem at the bottom, i don´t have that on the TV (though i played at a different time, but don´t think that matters).

[jagabo]

But what do you think about the ds004 clip?
I can only think of it as either a bad signal or the capture card is bad at "decoding" it.

It's quite common for VCR overlay like that to jitter in the absence of a video signal. Feed the VCR the clean output from a DVD player or cable TV box and it will probably go away.

[zerowalker]

I see, but is there any problem with these AV Out "3.5mm" (Composite,RCA in same)?
Cause personally can think that it can cause crosstalk, but maybe i am totally wrong(i hope so).


And i would like to confirm if i am correct about these.

S-Video and Composite has the Same quality, but the crosstalk between luma and chroma makes it up to the Y/C filter to separate them compared to S-Video where it´s already separated.

So if the Y/C filter is of High Quality, it´s pretty much the same as S-video?

Is this correct?

[zerowalker]

Also, another question added to the one above,
Video8 and Hi8, are you supposed to Repack those?
As the Rewind is very slow, atleast in the camcorder.

[lordsmurf]

YBut can you give som facts on Video8, does it work the same as VHS?
Only info i got is, that it seem so have pretty high quality audio (like HiFi VHS).
And that it has pretty much same Picture Quality as VHS.

Video8 and Hi8 don't have anywhere near the chroma problems found on VHS and S-VHS.

[jagabo]

I see, but is there any problem with these AV Out "3.5mm" (Composite,RCA in same)?
Cause personally can think that it can cause crosstalk, but maybe i am totally wrong(i hope so).

The caps look ok to me. I don't see a lot of dot crawl. But it can be hard to tell with such fuzzy, low color saturation samples.

And i would like to confirm if i am correct about these.

S-Video and Composite has the Same quality, but the crosstalk between luma and chroma makes it up to the Y/C filter to separate them compared to S-Video where it´s already separated.

So if the Y/C filter is of High Quality, it´s pretty much the same as S-video?

Is this correct?

No. S-video potentially has more color resolution than composite. And once you have composite video it's not possible to perfectly separate the chroma and luma. Comb filters can suppress some of the dot crawl artifacts but they do so at the expense of blurring the colors.

Video8 and Hi8, are you supposed to Repack those?

Any system where tape winds around reels may benefit from a repacking.

[sanlyn]

S-video potentially has more color resolution than composite. And once you have composite video it's not possible to perfectly separate the chroma and luma. Comb filters can suppress some of the dot crawl artifacts but they do so at the expense of blurring the colors.

I agree on the blurring issue with composite->s-video, but how Y/C filters handle it seems different to me with different components. Y/C converters differ. My AVT-8710 TBC accepts composite-in and outputs s-video, but its output has a very fine mesh "dot crawl" effect over the whole image - so the AVT-8710 is used only when absolutely needed and has to be cleaned up with NeatVideo. But I note a bit less chroma shift and chroma bleed with the Toshiba y/c working. With my ES20 pass-thru, the conversion doesn't seem as clean (I think Panasonic's processing kiinda pushes red anyway, blur or no blur). In any case, the Toshiba tbc and y/c seem to me to do cleaner work. That impression can't be seen in a single frame capture (well, sometimes it can be seen, but not often). Viewing normal video motion for several seconds, Toshiba's output just seems to flow more smoothly, less noise.

I had occasion a couple of weeks ago to see some video captured with a newer and cheaper Toshiba circa-2008 DVD used as pass-thru. Well...it just didn't seem to be as thorough as the older R-Dx or RD-XS series I'm familiar with. Granted, no pass-thru TBC is a $5000 studio job, but it's better than no line-tbc at all.

[zerowalker]

Okay thanks, will do a repack before i capture any of them

And with that i will probably get a S-video VCR when i finally get the Line-TBC, as with S-Video and Line-TBC i think it´s as stable as it can get with consumer gear, and i want to get the best out of it, but can´t pay a fortune for it.

I did get a Plug Converter today, and it seems like it will be just to plug it in, as Europe has an acceptable range from 220-240 as said before.
So hopefully no problems will occur.

And i think the DVD will arrive tomorrow or the day after it, and then i will give comparisons of many kinds.

But will keep a strong lookout for a Good S-VHS that i can use now that the TBC is pretty much insight.

[zerowalker]

Oh, and does Video8 benefit from S-Video?
Was wondering if it´s like Laser Disc, recorded in Composite so it will have to go through Y/C no matter what, or if Chroma and Luma is separated on the tape.

[zerowalker]

Okay i finally got it, but i can´t say i am too happy with the results, alteast with the Video8 camcorder.

It causes Top Tearing on VHS tape also, will try other tapes.

I noticed that the naming is wrong (Direct = DVD Passthrough, Passthrough = Direct from VCR)

[jagabo]

Finally got what? I don't feel like going back through 588 posts to figure out what you're talking about.

[zerowalker]

oh, sorry, think i even wrote it in another thread.

Toshiba D-R3 DVD Recorder.

Here is a file from VCR Capture and Passthrough, i changed the Brightness and Contrast drasticly from the Direct, as the DVD is way to bright on the default settings or the "Normal" tweaked i made before.

It´s an Interleaved Direct/TBC, it´s written in the left top corner.
I tried to make it identical, but for some reason the Passthrough changes scene interlaced, while direct changes "progressive".

[zerowalker]

Okay, atleast on my Video8 Camcorder if i passthrough, i get Temporal Artifacts, and pretty heavy that is.
I seem to get some weird noise aswell, it´s seem clearly on black/white, i think it´s caused by the Y/C Filter.

[sanlyn]

Passthrough looks better. It has less edge noise, less red fringing, better detail, etc. Likely you're getting some temporal interference by coupling 2 tbc devices (I believe the camcorder appears to have some sort of tbc).

I have no idea what's going on with New File (4) or why it's interleaved.

If you think the Y/C filter is making noise (I doubt that it is), you can turn it off in Toshiba's menu. Like many DVD recorders (including the Panasonics, etc.) the Toshiba does have some DNR features. Don't use them with VHS during capture.

Y/C filters, AFAIK, are not temporal filters.

Interlaced -> progressive settings? Maybe I missed something.

[jagabo]

I tried to make it identical, but for some reason the Passthrough changes scene interlaced, while direct changes "progressive".

The source is progressive. There's a one field delay in one of them. Ie, instead of

1b1t - 2b2t - 3b3t - 4b4t

one is:

1t2b - 2t3b - 3t4b - 4t5b

[zerowalker]

Okay, it may be that the Camcorder has some TBC then, as if you do QTGMC or BOB on the Direct (Passthrough wrong name). you will se some serious Temporal artifacts.

Sadly i can´t go into the menu yet, as it´s a little broken, the DVD is stuck and goes into loading, so i am going to open it and see if i can solve it somehow.
The other interleaved is, Selecteven = TBCed one (or if it´s the other way), and Selectodd = the opposite.

Was just so you could see the difference clearly in the same frames.

For some reason the Passthrough atleast shows Blue which i think it´s the correct color, while the other shows lightish blue. The tape is very bad, i have uploaded it before, and i think Jagabo stated that it´s some very improper NTSC to PAL being made on the tape.

Ah so the DVD just had a field delay, that explains it.

[sanlyn]

I used QTGMC on direct and passthrough files. QTGMC cleaned up both videos visibly, but Passthrough still looks better. It's easy to see temporal blurring in both files if you watch the blinds on the windows. The blur occurs in approximately the same frames on both versions, so I'm guessing it's in the source or in the camera's playback, or both. But using two line-tbc's doesn't help, and turning on DNR makes it worse. The noise filters in consumer playback devices are not nearly as sophisticated as those in studio gear or in Avisynth/VirtualDub plugins. I never use them during VHS capture. They cause more problems than they solve.

[zerowalker]

I just want to check, did you read that Passthrough is the non-passthrough?

I named them wrong.

Also, do you recommend 3D noise reduction off or on?

[sanlyn]

Then if the processes were reversed, it proves the point that two line-tbc's in tandem will cause problems. Similar and unexpected problems would occur if you used a VCR with built-in line tbc and fed it into yet another line tbc.

[zerowalker]

Ah i see, well that does explain why it´s fairly stable if it has some kind of TBC.
I turned off the 3D DNR, no difference there, so it´s it´s the TBC.

Can´t try and compare the clip from the VCR i showed before (which was clean) as the top tear for some reason, maybe copy-protection?

But will try another tape.

[jagabo]

Does the Toshiba DVD recorder have a way to disable its noise reduction filter? My Panasonic ES15 has such a control. The herringbone noise in the passthrough caps is a big problem.