Widescreen DVD menu overscan problem (only on older equipment)

[Grunberg]

I've used NeroVision to create a DVD project with a widescreen main menu (1280 x 720). I admit I did NOT obey the "safe zone" in the software because NeroVision provides no way of doing so with background graphics.

The main menu looks fine on my new 46" Sony Bravia TV, DVD played with the Sony PlayStation slim.

However, on an older 40" Sony Bravia TV and standalone Sony DVD player, the DVD menu runs off, clearly exhibiting the overscan problem. I have checked all settings left and right. The display on both TV's is set to Normal/Full.

Given what I've said, is this a problem with the older TV? DVD player? Or is it my not respecting the "safe area"? What confuses me even more is whether overscan is relevant anymore?

Here are screenshots showing the problem:
Sony Bravia 46" TV, Sony PlayStation 3 slim
Sony Bravia 40" TV, standalone Sony DVD player

Considering the project looks fine on my current equipment but menu runs off on my older viewing equipment, what am I to do?

I've attached screenshots as examples. Any information is appreciated. Thanks!

[jagabo]

I've used NeroVision to create a DVD project with a widescreen main menu (1280 x 720). I admit I did NOT obey the "safe zone" in the software because NeroVision provides no way of doing so with background graphics.

The main menu looks fine on my new 46" Sony Bravia TV, DVD played with the Sony PlayStation slim.

However, on an older 40" Sony Bravia TV and standalone Sony DVD player, the DVD menu runs off, clearly exhibiting the overscan problem. I have checked all settings left and right. The display on both TV's is set to Normal/Full.

Given what I've said, is this a problem with the older TV? DVD player? Or is it my not respecting the "safe area"?

It's your fault for not respecting the safe area.

What confuses me even more is whether overscan is relevant anymore?

Yes it is. Most HDTVs continue to overscan (though usually by less than older CRT based TVs, say 2 or 3 percent compared to 5 to 10 percent), at least by default.

Considering the project looks fine on my current equipment but menu runs off on my older viewing equipment, what am I to do?

It's up to you whether you want to rebuild the menus.

[yoda313]

It's up to you whether you want to rebuild the menus.

I wonder if there is a quicker work around.

Depending on what the poster means by "older equipment" it might be as simple as setting the player to LETTERBOX output. Then instead of being in widescreen mode it should be in 4:3 letterbox mode. Then everything should be fully displayed inside a pillarbar frame. Then all you have to is make your selections, play, then go back to the player menu and reconfigure to widescreen.

I might be oversimplifying this but the poster could look into it as a possible quick fix option.

Edit - I have an older hdtv that has a negative underscan option (just by one increment but might be all you need). You might look for that option to "shrink" the screen a tad.

[edDV]

It's up to you whether you want to rebuild the menus.

I wonder if there is a quicker work around.

Depending on what the poster means by "older equipment" it might be as simple as setting the player to LETTERBOX output. Then instead of being in widescreen mode it should be in 4:3 letterbox mode. Then everything should be fully displayed inside a pillarbar frame. Then all you have to is make your selections, play, then go back to the player menu and reconfigure to widescreen.

I might be oversimplifying this but the poster could look into it as a possible quick fix option.

Edit - I have an older hdtv that has a negative underscan option (just by one increment but might be all you need). You might look for that option to "shrink" the screen a tad.

No, he is cooked.

You could "shrink the screen" for that particular TV but that would be an additional recode.

Bottom line, one always sizes and encodes for the lowest targeted viewer.

Shudder to think what it looks like on a CRT NTSC screen which may be 50% of intended audience. But not to fear much because the broadcasters would reject it outright.

[Grunberg]

Thanks for the responses! I would like to add on what you have said here.

The "older equipment" I'm referring to are a 40" Sony Bravia (from a few years ago) and a two-year old Sony DVD player. It would seem as though this DVD player (when tested on both TV's) would cause the project to expand off the screen by at least the width of the safe area.

I could shrink the screen, but NeroVision wouldn't know what to do with that. Besides, since my new 46" TV doesn't cut off any of the screen, wouldn't it just continue to blow it to full size?

Last, but not least, this is a home movies compilation which is only watched by three or four of us. Therefore, it's not intended for mass production and it's only viewed on HDTV's. Still, the other TV's show the menu expanded but mine shows it just fine. Again, playing the DVD on the PlayStation 3 slim.

So I'm pondering whether to actually shrink the menu by 10% to compensate for the expansion on the older TV...whereas this would create a border on the current TV. Or if this isn't meant to be a huge problem, I could leave it as is...

And my menu size -- which is 1920 x 1080. Should it be 720 x 480? 865 x 480? Does it matter???
Even with extensive Google searching, I can barely find any explanation for all of this.

[edDV]

Plan is to render menus inside title safe area with "bleed" backgound out to pixel 1:1 1920x1080 (same way magazine ads "bleed off page" with no border).

Similar to desktop publishing "bleed"
http://www.prepressure.com/design/basics/bleed

[johns0]

I would leave it as is,you wont notice any thing missing.

[jagabo]

Plan is to render menus inside title safe area with "bleed" backgound out to pixel 1:1 1920x1080 (same way magazine ads "bleed off page" with no border).

Yes. Leave the background image all the way out to the edge of the frame. If you have important elements near the edge in the background image you'll have to recreate the background with those elements moved into the title safe area.

Note that overscan is performed by the TV, not the source (DVD player in this case). It was originally done because TVs couldn't keep the image the exact same size and centered as they heated up and/or aged. (And very long ago CRTs were round with a rectangular bezel. The size of the bezel varied between models.) Overscan also helps hide pincushion, barrel, and other linearity problems. Since broadcasters knew you wouldn't see the edge of the frame they didn't worry about junk appearing there. (Even official "junk" was placed there -- like closed captions at the top of the frame.) Even though CRTs improved over the years and fixed pixel displays don't have these problems, we are stuck in a vicious circle: HDTVs overscan because there's sometimes junk at the edge of the frame, broadcasters don't worry about junk at the edge of the frame because they know you won't see it. If HDTVs didn't simulate overscan buyers would think there was something wrong with TVs when they saw it. As you've noticed, many newer HDTVs have a non-overscan option. And from what I've seen, broadcasters seem to be cleaning up the edges of the frame. Maybe someday non-overscan will become the default for TV manufacturers.

An HDTV may overscan its different inputs differently. For example, the VGA input usually doesn't overscan because it's knows you need to see the entire desktop on a computer.

Overscan can sometimes be simulated by a source device. For example, an upscaling DVD player may simulate overscan when pillarboxing a 4:3 DVD to an upscaled 16:9 output. Ie, the player will trim away a little of the left and right edges of the 4:3 DVD frame before pillarboxing it. That will prevent any garbage at the edges of the 4:3 frame from appearing at its border with the pillarbox bars.